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Are bees capable of feeling exploited?

spicyapple said:
We "exploit" animals for our benefit in the same way a crocodile "exploits" a gazelle for their benefit.
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Well, not exactly. While a crocodile is driven more or less purely by it's need to survive - I don't believe crocs kill gazelles to make nice coats for themselves - we kill or "exploit" animals for reasons not even remotely related to survival.

This is not to say some other animals don't also exhibit some form of this - playing with their food before killing it, for example - but humans are pretty much the sole animals on this planet that kill for pleasure or for convenience.

Of course, I'm no animal rights activist, and frankly, I don't even really feel sorry for caged chickens. Sure, I'd like for all chickens to grow up naturally, live long lives, raise their chicks, and die happy birds, but I also don't want to listen to my kids bitch about having to eat tofu nuggets.

And don't think for a second that if chickens had evolved into the dominant species on earth there wouldn't be restaurants serving human nuggets. We won the evolutionary lottery. Chickens (cows, pigs, bees, rabbits, dogs, cats,...) lost. Tough nuts to them.

Now pass the honey mustard sauce.
 
"I mean, beekeeping isn't the sort of job you just fall into, you have to want it! I can just imagine the first guy who said to himself 'I wanna KEEP BEES! I don't want 'em to get away, I'm gonna keep 'em! They've got too much freedom.... My father was a beekeeper before me, his father was a beekeeper before him—I want to follow in their footsteps. And their footsteps went like: 'AAAUUUGHHHHHHHHH! I'M COVERED IN BEES! HEEELLLLLP! COVERED IN BEES!'"

:D

Yeah, that's all I could think of when I saw this thread. (Points to whoever can identify it.)
 
livingfortoday said:
...this:

foto36-1.jpg
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Not to go further off-topic, but what is on that cat's head?
 
killmoms said:
"I mean, beekeeping isn't the sort of job you just fall into, you have to want it! I can just imagine the first guy who said to himself 'I wanna KEEP BEES! I don't want 'em to get away, I'm gonna keep 'em! They've got too much freedom.... My father was a beekeeper before me, his father was a beekeeper before him—I want to follow in their footsteps. And their footsteps went like: 'AAAUUUGHHHHHHHHH! I'M COVERED IN BEES! HEEELLLLLP! COVERED IN BEES!'"

:D
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I like my coffee like I like my women.....COVERED IN BEES :D!
 
One thing these people don't seem to understand: humans are part of the food chain. This is how Earth has worked since the dawn of life, and will continue to do so. Humans would never have gotten this far if we were constantly concerned about meaningless "exploitations"... give me a break. Survival of the fittest - I say we leave it up to evolution to weed out these nincompoops.



irmongoose
 
irmongoose said:
One thing these people don't seem to understand: humans are part of the food chain.
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What makes you think they don't understand that?

irmongoose said:
Survival of the fittest - I say we leave it up to evolution to weed out these nincompoops.
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Why do you think not eating meat and honey is going to have a detrimental effect on the reproduction rate of vegetarians/vegans in the western world?
 
Wow, look what I started (sort of)..... :)

OK, so I was simplifying the honey thing a bit. ;) Still, I don't think there is any data showing that the life expectancy of a bee colony in captivity is lower than that in the wild is there? If not, then what harm does taking the honey do?
 
alFR said:
Wow, look what I started (sort of)..... :)

OK, so I was simplifying the honey thing a bit. ;) Still, I don't think there is any data showing that the life expectancy of a bee colony in captivity is lower than that in the wild is there? If not, then what harm does taking the honey do?
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Again I'm not vegan (and enjoy honey) but you can't justify it like that. If I were to deprive you of X item from you home which you've invested time and effort into acquiring (but isn't of detriment to your longevity) does that make it justifiable?
 
irmongoose said:
Survival of the fittest - I say we leave it up to evolution to weed out these nincompoops.
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It might happen sooner if they took the moral high ground and refuse to take medicine for what ails them. One can only hope, anyway.
 
spicyapple said:
It might happen sooner if they took the moral high ground and refuse to take medicine for what ails them. One can only hope, anyway.
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I'll pop in this again.

Taking up a vegetarian/vegan diet isn't an absolutist agenda (although of different degress). The aim isn't to never kill or exploit and animal. The aim is to as far as possible significantly reduce X effect(s) on animals due to exploiting them for personal gain.
 
.Andy said:
Again I'm not vegan (and enjoy honey) but you can't justify it like that. If I were to deprive you of X item from you home which you've invested time and effort into acquiring (but isn't of detriment to your longevity) does that make it justifiable?
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Ah ... but what if it is beneficial to my longevity? Does that make it justifiable?

Edit: that's just a rant about the thought police who seem bent on depriving us of unhealthy pleasures .. won't take the rant any further, except to atone by saving all that sand from drowning (best laugh I've had for years)
 
kiwi-in-uk said:
Ah ... but what if it is beneficial to my longevity? Does that make it justifiable?
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I'd say it doesn't from a consent POV. To use the analogy from my profession, it is completely unethical of me to treat patients unless I have their implicit consent. Although I loathed to let high-risk kids go without say, pertussis vaccination (an intervention that is simple and overwhelmingly of their benefit), I have to understand and abide by the wishes of parents/guardians. Although that's a bit of a skewed analogy as I don't personally benefit in that case.

kiwi-in-uk said:
Edit: that's just a rant about the thought police who seem bent on depriving us of unhealthy pleasures ..
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How are other people's personal consumption habits depriving you of unhealthy[sic] pleasures? For starters there's nothing unhealthy at all about a moderate meat/honey intake.
 
What always has me curious is the following.
Plant life is just that - LIFE.
So, WHY is it ok to choose plant life to eat over animals? Is it ok to cut and shred plants because they have no mouths and, in turn, you can't hear them scream or suffer? Hmmmm. Trees do "bleed." Seems to me there's a giant hole in the vegetarian philosophy. Time to start eating plastic. :p
 
Doesn't farming vegetables kill a lot of animal life? After all, one minute there's a place for animals and insects to go and eat, and next minute, you're killing off a food source for a lot of animals who have become dependent on these plants and such.

Shredding up the soil may be killing animals as well.

livingfortoday said:
I suppose if you can't fix everything at once, you'd better not try to do anything. I totally agree. Because I know I'll never stop the slaughter in Darfur, I club seals. Totally makes sense, ya know?
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I club seals too, but I don't swing as hard. Just a love tap to the head......tap.

But don't misunderstand. I'm not a softie. If a seal doesn't go down after the first tap, I'm required to do it again......go medieval.
 
deputy_doofy said:
What always has me curious is the following.
Plant life is just that - LIFE.
So, WHY is it ok to choose plant life to eat over animals? Is it ok to cut and shred plants because they have no mouths and, in turn, you can't hear them scream or suffer? Hmmmm. Trees do "bleed." Seems to me there's a giant hole in the vegetarian philosophy. Time to start eating plastic. :p
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Vegetarinsim/veganism isn't about life or bleeding. It's about (among other things) minimising unnecessary pain, suffering, and exploitation of animals. If you'd read the thread you'd understand the philosophy behind veganism/vegetarianism.
 
While some people are saying that individual trees have no feelings, do you think an entire forest has feelings? Sure, maybe an individual tree doesn't really know that it's a tree, or that it's dying. However, can an entire forest feel sadness because as a system, it wasn't capable of surviving? Trees rarely grow by themselves, after all.

What about an entire bee colony? Sure, one bee may not feel exploited if it's working and making honey, but do you think that there is disappointment that no matter how hard they work to make honey (which is pretty much the reason they're alive), it always disappears overnight?

Discuss.




jsw said:
Not to go further off-topic, but what is on that cat's head?
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Maybe he got that photo from Stuff On My Cat. :p Hilaaaarious. It's a vegan's worst nightmare.
 
Two beekeepers walk across the country side;
Beekeeper1(proudly): "See those hives? I've got ten of them, each has ten thousand bees in. I got me one hundred thousand bees."

Beekeeper2(nonchalantly): "I've got one million bees.)

Beekeeper1(amazed): "One million bees! How many hives do you have?"

Beekeeper2(nonchalantly): "One."

Beekeeper1(incredulous): "One million bees, in just one hive!!??"

Beekeeper2(nonchalantly): "****'em, they're only bees."
 
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