Are dGPUs really necessary in a 15"MBP?

[iKrivetko]

I definitely can't see a good reason not to make an entry-level 15" with the same internals as a 13" (i.e. 8259/8559).
It'd still pack more than enough performance while remaining cool and silent, and just imagine the battery life of a 15" mbp with a 28w chip.

 

[Analog Kid]

If they made a 15" without the Touch Bar, nobody would buy the Touch Bar version.

These kinds of arguments always blow my mind... It's amazing how few people understand the basics of business and how many have these weird fantasies of how the management of Apple thinks.

The TouchBar isn't broccoli. If people don't want it there's no reason to force them to have it.

Apple: still the worlds most valuable company, yet people somehow think it's run by idiots. Mistakes here and there, sure, but systematic idiocy, no.

 

[lambinho]

"For pretty much any task that needs more screen real estate and potentially better battery life than a 13" machine that does not require heavy use of 3d acceleration.

i.e., 90% of what people typically use a business laptop for."


I don't see how this answers my question? Why would they do this on the MacBook Pro 15"

 

[throAU]

I don't see how this answers my question? Why would they do this on the MacBook Pro 15"

To offer a machine with more screen real estate and battery life than the 13" for users who do not need/want a discrete GPU in the machine.
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The TouchBar isn't broccoli. If people don't want it there's no reason to force them to have it.

Agreed.

Apple: still the worlds most valuable company, yet people somehow think it's run by idiots. Mistakes here and there, sure, but systematic idiocy, no.

And yet they are forcing people who don't want a poverty spec machine to get the touchbar.

They're pricing themselves out of the market. I'm a a big Mac fan. But there's simply no way i'm paying what Apple want for a 15" machine. The 13" is pushing it, and it's largely due to the price increases seen with the touchbar release.

 

[CodeJoy]

IMHO discrete GPUs in portables are one of those things that is more of a waste of time/liability than anything else for most people.

Indeed, and the 555X => 560X is among the more popular ways to waste money with the 2018 MBP.

For myself though, since I do GPU programming, I would actually love a 13" model with a dGPU. Any old slow one would do, and if this could go into a quad core nTB model that would be great! Quite frankly, it would be awesome for me to have two dGPU's, one AMD and one nVidia. But it's probably me against the rest of the planet on that one.

Ultimately, I love the idea of dGPU as a super fast coprocessor. If they were supported a bit more widely in apps, they could actually be extremely good additions even to low end models. But we're not there today, and as such it's currently pretty pointless for most people to get one.
[doublepost=1532587489][/doublepost]

These kinds of arguments always blow my mind... It's amazing how few people understand the basics of business and how many have these weird fantasies of how the management of Apple thinks.

The TouchBar isn't broccoli. If people don't want it there's no reason to force them to have it.

Apple: still the worlds most valuable company, yet people somehow think it's run by idiots. Mistakes here and there, sure, but systematic idiocy, no.

Haha, I think you're the one who doesn't know how typical management thinks in major corporations. Their primary focus is on increasing the stock price, and making the next quarterly report look better than the previous. All the products and services they offer are tools to achieve that goal, rather than meaningful in themselves.

If they can get users to part with more money by only having a $300 TB option available, then that's what they'll do. They will only change if and when that $300 extra actually makes users stop spending or move their spending to other manufacturers.
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They're pricing themselves out of the market. I'm a a big Mac fan. But there's simply no way i'm paying what Apple want for a 15" machine. The 13" is pushing it, and it's largely due to the price increases seen with the touchbar release.

I moved from planning to spend $3500 on a MBP to planning to spend $1700 for this very reason. And I've delayed my spending from early 2017 to (most likely) the later part of 2018 for this very reason. I will spend less, and I will spend it later. And right now I'm debating whether to spend even the $1700. I'm still leaning towards a yes, but it's no longer a guarantee as it was when I started this journey.

 

[mrex]

I think the TB is one of those things that is very... divisive. I would happily pay to have a ‘TB Delete,’ mostly because I really miss having that physical esc key and couldn’t care for it otherwise.

Why don't you install BetterTouchTool (from Andrea Hegenberg)? There is a lot that you can do with it. I found the touchbar being quite useless when I bought the laptop, but having had the BTT from the beginning and it's great.

Edit. Here is the link (you can try it for free) https://folivora.ai

 

[christarp]

The problem with doing this, and leaving out the dGPU is that intel doesn't make high end mobile processors with high end integrated GPU's. Taking out the dGPU in the 15" macbook would absolutely tank graphics performance. The UHD 630 used in the high end mobile i7's and i9's in the 15" macbook pro has less than half the performance of the iris plus 655 in the 13" models, and the dGPU's in the 15" are currently hovering around 100% or even more faster than the integrated GPU's in the 13" You would be getting an absolute dog of a machine graphically.

You can look up the information here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HD,_UHD_and_Iris_Graphics#Kaby_Lake_Refresh_/_Coffee_Lake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Lake#Mobile_processors

Intel doesn't make 6 core processors with integrated graphics that are up to par.

 

[Falhófnir]

The problem with doing this, and leaving out the dGPU is that intel doesn't make high end mobile processors with high end integrated GPU's. Taking out the dGPU in the 15" macbook would absolutely tank graphics performance. The UHD 630 used in the high end mobile i7's and i9's in the 15" macbook pro has less than half the performance of the iris plus 655 in the 13" models, and the dGPU's in the 15" are currently hovering around 100% or even more faster than the integrated GPU's in the 13" You would be getting an absolute dog of a machine graphically.

You can look up the information here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HD,_UHD_and_Iris_Graphics#Kaby_Lake_Refresh_/_Coffee_Lake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_Lake#Mobile_processors

Intel doesn't make 6 core processors with integrated graphics that are up to par.

No reason not to use an i7-8559U in a less expensive, less performance oriented model. Heck, if they even wanted to drop the ‘pro’ from the name and just make it the 15” macbook, that’d be fine, though it would make a mockery of the 13” pro being no more powerful.

I’m sure if they used last gen (or even 2016) speed SSDs, started RAM at 8GB and the U series cpu with no GPU they could adequately start pricing at about $1,799 without losing out on their margins - as they can make even more money channeling anyone who wants a 15” machine to the $2,399 model, and then as 256 is an absolute joke of an SSD capacity at that price, tempt people to go for the relatively cheap $200 upgrade to 512GB, or even the $2,799 model that’s what they do instead though.

 

[throAU]

Why don't you install BetterTouchTool (from Andrea Hegenberg)? There is a lot that you can do with it. I found the touchbar being quite useless when I bought the laptop, but having had the BTT from the beginning and it's great.

Edit. Here is the link (you can try it for free) https://folivora.ai

Because it's an extra 500 dollars (AUD) i'd rather not spend for something of dubious utility in the first place.

 

[mrex]

Because it's an extra 500 dollars (AUD) i'd rather not spend for something of dubious utility in the first place.

I think I quoted and answered to other person(s) who wants to have the "delete"/"Esc" key on the laptop having touchbar.

 

[Aea]

Nah I want a physical key is the thing. Or at least haptic feedback.

 

[Analog Kid]

Haha, I think you're the one who doesn't know how typical management thinks in major corporations. Their primary focus is on increasing the stock price, and making the next quarterly report look better than the previous. All the products and services they offer are tools to achieve that goal, rather than meaningful in themselves.

If they can get users to part with more money by only having a $300 TB option available, then that's what they'll do. They will only change if and when that $300 extra actually makes users stop spending or move their spending to other manufacturers.

And by what mechanism does selling hardware nobody wants raise their stock price?

Apple's P/E multiplier is quite low-- it's lower than Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and Exxon. So their mechanism for raising their stock price isn't to convince investors that the Touch Bar is the path to future growth-- their stock price is more tied to current earnings than even most other big companies.

You're saying that the only way users will pay an extra $300 is if they include the Touch Bar. That means users want the Touch Bar. If users didn't want the touch bar, they'd be willing to pay more than $300 to not have it. If users didn't care about the Touch Bar, they'd pay that $300 even if it wasn't included. If users wanted the Touch Bar but didn't value it at $300 they wouldn't purchase the machine. In any of those other cases, Apple would earn more by not adding the cost of the Touch Bar hardware.


I see no logic to your statements.

 

[TechZeke]

The main thing that has always annoyed me with MacBooks is that you have to pay a $500-$1000 premium just because you want a bigger screen. Frankly, I think that's partially why the 17" MBP died. Apple forced you to buy a loaded MacBook Pro just to get the larger screen.

If Apple were to make a 15" non-Touch Bar with 8GB of RAM, Iris Plus graphics, 2 TB3 Ports and a 28W chip for $1799-$1999, I think many would jump on that.
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They're pricing themselves out of the market. I'm a a big Mac fan. But there's simply no way i'm paying what Apple want for a 15" machine. The 13" is pushing it, and it's largely due to the price increases seen with the touchbar release.

Even the 13" Touch Bar is astronomical. The tech geek in me really wants the new quad processors, 4 TB3 ports, and True Tone display. However, I'm having a really hard time justifying an $1800 13" laptop with 8GB of RAM.

 

[VictorTango777]

My point is they're not losing sales because of the lack of a low end model, and they'll only hurt sales of the more expensive model. Its a lose - lose situation. They're not gaining new customers, they're not losing customer and some of the existing customers will purchase a cheaper model. The overhead for carrying another model, that's cheaper that hurts existing sales doesn't make business sense.

Apple themselves said they are not afraid of cannibalization. The phrase "It is better to cannibalize your own sales than to have a competitor do it for us" was actually said by one of the Apple execs, I don't remember which.

Have we also forgotten that the pre-Touchbar 15 inch MBPs were sold at $1999 and $2499 US, with the lower end model having no dGPU?

 

[maflynn]

Apple themselves said they are not afraid of cannibalization

I agree where they can grow a business. The iPad is a prime example, they're content in letting iPads eat away at the MBP business. The difference is that a low cost MBP provides no benefit imo, it just eats away at more expensive products without benefitting Apple.

 

[AppleHaterLover]

These kinds of arguments always blow my mind... It's amazing how few people understand the basics of business and how many have these weird fantasies of how the management of Apple thinks.

The TouchBar isn't broccoli. If people don't want it there's no reason to force them to have it.

Apple: still the worlds most valuable company, yet people somehow think it's run by idiots. Mistakes here and there, sure, but systematic idiocy, no.

“If people don’t want it, there’s no reason to force them to have it”.

This is why Apple gives you a choice on whether your 15” Mac comes with a Touch Bar or not!!

Oh wait

 

[Analog Kid]

“If people don’t want it, there’s no reason to force them to have it”.

This is why Apple gives you a choice on whether your 15” Mac comes with a Touch Bar or not!!

Oh wait

Yeah, there was some ambiguity in my phrasing. My point was that if people as a whole don't want it, that is, nobody wants it, which is the argument being made, then there's no reason to make anyone take it. Of course, if enough people want it then economies of scale may make ubiquity the best option.

I get that some people don't see a configuration specifically tailored to them, but it's just weird how people think that their wants not being fulfilled is a sign of conspiracy, stupidity, or both. I haven't heard a sensible argument for making something nobody wants, or even that only a minority wants that doesn't involve one or the other.

 

[AppleHaterLover]

Yeah, there was some ambiguity in my phrasing. My point was that if people as a whole don't want it, that is, nobody wants it, which is the argument being made, then there's no reason to make anyone take it. Of course, if enough people want it then economies of scale may make ubiquity the best option.

I get that some people don't see a configuration specifically tailored to them, but it's just weird how people think that their wants not being fulfilled is a sign of conspiracy, stupidity, or both. I haven't heard a sensible argument for making something nobody wants, or even that only a minority wants that doesn't involve one or the other.

Economies of scale are exactly why the Touch Bar is not optional - it wouldn't work otherwise. But these are working on Apple's favor and not the consumer.

"Nobody" is obviously an exaggeration, but I think there is enough of a market for a $ 1,999 nTB 15" MacBook Pro. It is a matter of quantifying if the loss of these customers is smaller than the profit gained from people who do not want the Touch Bar but buy the (more expensive because of the TB) model anyway because it's the only option.

Either way, it's justifiable, just not pro-consumer. And in this case, we all understand Tim Cook is not the CEO of Goodwill Inc. It doesn't make it suck less, though.

(disclaimer: I wanted a Mac with 4 TB ports but ended up with a 13" nTB specifically because I did not want the Touch Bar)