Are (i)Macs becoming less and less bang-for-buck computers?

[Cashmonee]

Even that screen is worth half the price of iMac, or even more, depending on configuration. iMac is the BEST bang for the buck that Apple currently offers, Mac wise.

OP doesn't know what they're talking about.

I think I would agree with you if the hardware weren't so old. It is beyond frustrating that Apple continues to charge the same price for a computer that was released 18 months ago and has been superseded in every aspect (except the screen). I would have bought an iMac a couple weeks ago at the current price if the hardware were current or taken the current hardware at a discounted price. The only discount I saw for the 27" was from 3rd parties on the base model.

 

[StellarVixen]

I think I would agree with you if the hardware weren't so old. It is beyond frustrating that Apple continues to charge the same price for a computer that was released 18 months ago and has been superseded in every aspect (except the screen). I would have bought an iMac a couple weeks ago at the current price if the hardware were current or taken the current hardware at a discounted price. The only discount I saw for the 27" was from 3rd parties on the base model.

Granted, hardware is more than a year old, but we will probably see update in several months. And with updated internals, iMac will again be best bang for buck.

 

[SecuritySteve]

I think I would agree with you if the hardware weren't so old. It is beyond frustrating that Apple continues to charge the same price for a computer that was released 18 months ago and has been superseded in every aspect (except the screen). I would have bought an iMac a couple weeks ago at the current price if the hardware were current or taken the current hardware at a discounted price. The only discount I saw for the 27" was from 3rd parties on the base model.

I agree so much with this sentiment. It's beyond crazy that Apple still has the 2013 Mac Pro on their site at near full price. The minor price drop they had about a year ago was a laughable joke.

 

[Cashmonee]

Granted, hardware is more than a year old, but we will probably see update in several months. And with updated internals, iMac will again be best bang for buck.

Perhaps. Although if the price is increased to the point of being close to a mini + monitor + eGPU (about $400 or 20% when comparing i7s) and they remove the ability to upgrade RAM, I could see the mini becoming the better value. Having said that, the bang for buck overall for all Macs when including options outside of macOS is definitely getting worse.

 

[mikehalloran]

but we will probably see update in several months

Probably not.

 

[redheeler]

Having said that, the bang for buck overall for all Macs when including options outside of macOS is definitely getting worse.

It's ironic how the iMac has the best display resolution of any all-in-one, while the more expensive MacBook Pro still has 2012's 2880x1800 which is well behind many 2018 PCs at a lower price point. The max brightness and color reproduction are still decent like the iMac, but for sure the value-for-money of the laptops has gotten worse.

 

[brofkand]

I don't like the 21.5" iMac, i don't feel it's a good value. But the 27" is a good value as long as you don't go nuts on the build-to-order configuration. Remember that RAM can be added after the fact.

My biggest problem with the iMac is at the end of it's life, which is different for everyone, you'll be throwing away a likely perfect display because the computer it's married to is obsolete.

A 24" 1920x1200" display is still useful, but the 2008 iMac it's bolted to? Not so much for many people.

 

[Cashmonee]

I don't like the 21.5" iMac, i don't feel it's a good value. But the 27" is a good value as long as you don't go nuts on the build-to-order configuration. Remember that RAM can be added after the fact.

My biggest problem with the iMac is at the end of it's life, which is different for everyone, you'll be throwing away a likely perfect display because the computer it's married to is obsolete.

A 24" 1920x1200" display is still useful, but the 2008 iMac it's bolted to? Not so much for many people.

That would make an argument for the mini if there were a good display to mate it too, but it seems there are not any yet. The LG gets terrible reviews, and the way macOS handles scaling makes 4k monitors a less than great option.

 

[brofkand]

That would make an argument for the mini if there were a good display to mate it too, but it seems there are not any yet. The LG gets terrible reviews, and the way macOS handles scaling makes 4k monitors a less than great option.

It's why many people have been clamoring for a mid-tower Mac. We haven't really had one since the G3 era. A Mac with internal expandability, no built-in display, and a reasonable price for the average consumer. The mini is nice, but it's integrated graphics will drag it's performance down faster than an equivalent machine with even a midrange discrete GPU.

 

[MBAir2010]

In my industry, when you fail to update you are a liability not only to yourself but to those around you.

Now, for my humble opinion, you are overdue for an upgrade

Thanks for your detailed reply, i hope your fingers do not have blisters or festers due to my apples!
When i purchased the 2010 MacBook air, the goal (mine and apple) was for this computer to last well over 10 years, including the power chord, which needs another replacement, which will be a third time. Sometimes the 2016 power supply works, but only if i keep the wire situated in a certain way. I added a 128 ssd hd for $20.

In my industry, if i fail to please my costomers, i fail!

So my next computer upgrade might be a Dell X capitol letter capitol letter laptop because apple cannot make products that will last, and not the bang for the buck!

 

[JoSch]

Good for you, but i dont use your computer, unless we can work something out?.....highest sierra span span span and span so bad i had to unplug the computer daily. this was just to read a nikon photo card and simply extract some photographs. Im having issues with El Crap were the airport needs to be muted and muted just so that function can work.

So, you are saying, because you are having problem with your installation, the only possibility is that the hardware is bad, because Apple is willingly makes it bad?
Sounds reasonable.

 

[tomscott1988]

Thanks for your detailed reply, i hope your fingers do not have blisters or festers due to my apples!
When i purchased the 2010 MacBook air, the goal (mine and apple) was for this computer to last well over 10 years, including the power chord, which needs another replacement, which will be a third time. Sometimes the 2016 power supply works, but only if i keep the wire situated in a certain way. I added a 128 ssd hd for $20.

In my industry, if i fail to please my costomers, i fail!

So my next computer upgrade might be a Dell X capitol letter capitol letter laptop because apple cannot make products that will last, and not the bang for the buck!

Expecting a laptop to last 10 years when the 2010 Macbook air wasn't exactly a speed demon when it was released is living in cloud cockoo land.

It certainly wasn't apples goal for the macbook air to have a service life of 10 years.

Sounds like a sound business plan you have... I certainly wouldn't want to be a customer of yours. A mediocre laptop to serve the needs of your clients for 10+ years. The business should be able to write off the equipment as soon as its purchased allowing you to replace it after 3 years for something more suitable.

 

[maflynn]

bingo!, these machines do not stand the test of time and not worth the investment. my 2012 macmini is struggling to run elcapitan and the 2010 MBA has many many issues mostly because apple software is designed not to function smoothly on their older computers.

Wait so you're saying in this post and subsequently other posts, that you're leaving the apple ecosystem because you feel that apple is not a good long term solution because your 6 year old Mac Mini and 8 year old MacBook Air are struggling to run current modern operating systems?

I think still using 8 and 10 year old laptops not only pass the test of time, it passes with flying colors. You will get no where near that level of longevity from a PC.

Apple is not perfect and deserves a fair amount of criticism on some issues, but the fact that many you're able run such old equipment is testament to how well they're built. I hope that my current MBP (2018 model), runs as long and well as my 2012 MBP. Getting anything beyond 5 years off two low end, low priced computers like the MBA and Mini is fantastic. My 2012 machine still runs very well, and is not slow at all. I made the tacticle decision not to upgrade to the latest version a couple of years ago, and that makes sense. Why would I want to try to run the latest OS on legacy hardware. By the way, try running windows 10 on any 6 or 8 year old computer. My point is the issue of longevity, and legacy hardware is even more an issue on the PC world imo.

 

[MBAir2010]

leaving the apple ecosystem because you feel that apple is not a good long term solution because your 6 year old Mac Mini and 8 year old MacBook Air are struggling to run current modern operating systems?

I think still using 8 and 10 year old laptops

Apple is not perfect

1) yes 2) no 3) No way, these are stagnate machines with circuits, not clothing. I had too many stupid problems like a 2016 MBA power adapter not work for a month, and an 2008 Ipod that featured a red circle on the screen for 2 weeks, both work now after hours of troubleshooting, but the frustration was too much ! There are stupid things itunes cant get most music right and thinks there are 4 Jean Sibelius composers and cannot classify. nothing else i own with a apple logo works as solid. Maybe i know too much about apple and fixing there products . but to support this thread apple is not worth the cash anymore.
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type type type.

why are you getting personal? these are just observations i'm making about a company i longer trust and my frustrations. can we stick to apple and not me?
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So, you are saying, because you are having problem with your installation, the only possibility is that the hardware is bad, because Apple is willingly makes it bad?
Sounds reasonable.

i forgot now! i guess couple years ago apple stuff worked great, now they don't which is frustrating. then i was training for ironmens and i would shrug off off anything annoyances on the racing bike instead of trying to type them out on a faulty apple keyboard.

 

[tromboneaholic]

When i purchased the 2010 MacBook air, the goal (mine and apple) was for this computer to last well over 10 years

Maybe i know too much about apple and fixing there products

If you bought a laptop expecting it to last well over 10 years, you would need to know a lot more about fixing computers than most repairmen do.

 

[redheeler]

bingo!, these machines do not stand the test of time and not worth the investment. my 2012 macmini is struggling to run elcapitan and the 2010 MBA has many many issues mostly because apple software is designed not to function smoothly on their older computers.

Your 2012 Mac mini simply needs an SSD. MacOS hasn't run well on mechanical drives for years now, and the problem only gets worse as they age.

With 8 GB RAM and an SSD, a 2012 Mac mini will run Mojave fine.

By the way, try running windows 10 on any 6 or 8 year old computer.

Why would a high-end laptop from 2011 struggle on the latest version of Windows 10? I'm talking about a quad-core i7, 8 GB RAM, dedicated graphics, and an upgraded SATA III SSD. These are the specs Apple refused to support in Mojave.

An actual challenge would be running Windows 10 on my 12-year-old Core 2 Duo iMac from 2006, a model Apple attempted to obsolete no less than six years ago. From what I understand it's possible to extend its longevity by installing Windows, and 10 works despite never being supported by Bootcamp. (Linux Mint runs acceptably, but not completely issue-free.)

 

[brofkand]

Why would I want to try to run the latest OS on legacy hardware. By the way, try running windows 10 on any 6 or 8 year old computer.

You can install Windows 10 on Macs that Apple has not supported since Mavericks, or even older.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Why would a high-end laptop from 2011 struggle on the latest version of Windows 10? I'm talking about a quad-core i7, 8 GB RAM, dedicated graphics, and an upgraded SATA III SSD. These are the specs Apple refused to support in Mojave.

Sounds like you're describing my 2011 15 inch MacBook Pro, except I have 16 GB RAM.

I have mine on High Sierra, as well as my iMac that can run Mojave. To me, dark mode and stacks are not worth the upgrade from High Sierra.

My understanding is the Macs that were left behind don't support Metal, and I personally have no problem with Apple moving macOS forward as long as they are providing me with updates to High Sierra. I can still update my iPhone to iOS 12 using High Sierra, for example.

 

[Cashmonee]

Wait so you're saying in this post and subsequently other posts, that you're leaving the apple ecosystem because you feel that apple is not a good long term solution because your 6 year old Mac Mini and 8 year old MacBook Air are struggling to run current modern operating systems?

I think still using 8 and 10 year old laptops not only pass the test of time, it passes with flying colors. You will get no where near that level of longevity from a PC.

Apple is not perfect and deserves a fair amount of criticism on some issues, but the fact that many you're able run such old equipment is testament to how well they're built. I hope that my current MBP (2018 model), runs as long and well as my 2012 MBP. Getting anything beyond 5 years off two low end, low priced computers like the MBA and Mini is fantastic. My 2012 machine still runs very well, and is not slow at all. I made the tacticle decision not to upgrade to the latest version a couple of years ago, and that makes sense. Why would I want to try to run the latest OS on legacy hardware. By the way, try running windows 10 on any 6 or 8 year old computer. My point is the issue of longevity, and legacy hardware is even more an issue on the PC world imo.

Honestly, I think what you are saying used to be true, but is no longer. The advent of SSDs has really changed things. Any machine made within the last 8 or so years with an SSD is plenty fast to do most anything a regular consumer would do, and Windows 10 does support those machines. In fact, the requirements for Windows 10 are rather modest.

I think a lot of us that measure the time we have been using and tinkering with computers in decades struggle with the idea that these machines hit a point around 2010 where they no longer needed to get faster to do day-to-day tasks. The truth is, Apple could support these machines if they wanted to and have chosen to force their obsolescence.
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Sounds like you're describing my 2011 15 inch MacBook Pro, except I have 16 GB RAM.

I have mine on High Sierra, as well as my iMac that can run Mojave. To me, dark mode and stacks are not worth the upgrade from High Sierra.

My understanding is the Macs that were left behind don't support Metal, and I personally have no problem with Apple moving macOS forward as long as they are providing me with updates to High Sierra. I can still update my iPhone to iOS 12 using High Sierra, for example.

The problem is that you have slightly less than 2 years left of updates. Apple only supports the two previous OS's. In that time, support will decline. For example, you will begin to run into Apps that no longer support High Sierra before that two years is up. And the part that is frustrating is that your MacBook Pro will still be plenty sufficient in 2 years.

Perhaps this is why Apple is soldering things down. One way to stem the tide of computers lasting longer is to make them unrepairable.

 

[redheeler]

Sounds like you're describing my 2011 15 inch MacBook Pro, except I have 16 GB RAM.

I have mine on High Sierra, as well as my iMac that can run Mojave. To me, dark mode and stacks are not worth the upgrade from High Sierra.

The decision to stick to High Sierra is fine for now, but you have to consider the short support lifespan of old versions of MacOS, as well as the fact that some of us have been waiting for one or more of the Mojave features for years.

Old versions of MacOS get two years of security updates following their succession, but Apple drops support much quicker in the latest versions of Xcode and other apps. It wouldn't surprise me if 2011 Macs are made obsolete for iOS / MacOS app developers by May of next year, due to Xcode no longer supporting High Sierra.

My understanding is the Macs that were left behind don't support Metal, and I personally have no problem with Apple moving macOS forward as long as they are providing me with updates to High Sierra. I can still update my iPhone to iOS 12 using High Sierra, for example.

I already addressed this point earlier:

And before someone tries to defend Apple's decision to require Metal in Mojave, I will only say this once: MacOS Mojave still has an OpenGL renderer, the kexts needed to support pre-Metal GPUs were simply omitted from the OS.

To me, removing kexts doesn't count as "moving MacOS forward". I'm not saying they should support older pre-Metal hardware forever, but 2011 Macs are far from obsolete in 2018.

 

[maflynn]

1) yes 2) no 3) No way, these are stagnate machines with circuits, not clothing.

Imo, when laptops any laptops start aging, like my 2012 MBP, I start getting more picky on what I upgrade and/or install. That is, I chose not to upgrade beyond Yosemite, because I felt anything newer would have negative impact on my older machine. to a degree I agree with you, its not stagnate, but yet you need to enforce a level of static behavior when it comes to using legacy products. That is, you risk instability and/or performance issues with older laptops, so its safer imo to not upgrade. YMMV, but my 2012 MBP was the absolite best laptop I ever owned and its still going now 6 years later is a testament to apple's quality and design. I don't think in this fast moving world, setting a 10 year usage expectation is viable, but with effort its possible but certain sacrifices need to be made, such as not running the latest OS.

 

[tromboneaholic]

To me, removing kexts doesn't count as "moving MacOS forward". I'm not saying they should support older pre-Metal hardware forever, but 2011 Macs are far from obsolete in 2018.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm seriously curious what Mojave offers that High Sierra doesn't (besides dark mode and stacks).

 

[Jrshelby]

Mojave to me just seems more polished and a lot better suited for systems with SSD. I just received a 2017 mid 27” iMac with SSD, 40 GB ram and Mojave pre installed. I think those 3 factors help to blow away the Geekbench 4 scores that were ran with these systems new with base 8 GB ram, fusion drives and High Sierra. I was actually quite shocked st the numbers to be honest. Ranked 3 rd overall beating the the 4.2 i7 in stock form from introduction. That’s with the 3.5 i5 and 575 graphics. My open GL performance was rated better the the stock 3.8 580 scores at 111,000. Mojave is the smoothest running iteration of Mac OS I can remember. I no longer think I bought an outdated system now and am extremely happy.

 

[1050792]

Were they ever bang for the buck? You pay for an extremely expensive computer with lower end GPU's that can't handle their own default resolution without lagging.

 

[redheeler]

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm seriously curious what Mojave offers that High Sierra doesn't (besides dark mode and stacks).

Dark mode, Stacks, modernized App Store, Finder Gallery View, News app, custom accent colors (no longer just Blue and Graphite), and Software Update moved outside of the App Store again (which I like much better) are the main new features.

To be perfectly honest, I was expecting dark mode with every new release since Yosemite's incomplete implementation of just the menu bar and Dock. It's very disappointing that Apple would prevent 2011 Macs from getting this feature, let alone all the other Mojave features.