Are Mac Pro's slowly dying?

[Techguy172]

What if GM made a car for 60% the price of an M3, but it had an M3 engine, brakes, suspension, chassis and everything that makes it perform the same but the difference was the exterior appearance and maybe it was less stylish, but performance wise it was identical as were the mechanicals that made it up?

How many people would buy the actual BMW M3 over the other one? I'd say not that many.

No actually the more I think about it the more it doesn't seem true for the poeple in the market for a car like that don't consider GM because BMW is a very well known name for quality and performace. GM isn't so they will still buy the Beamer.

On the second note how come GM has BMW parts anyways?

 

[themoonisdown09]

If Apple wants to attract the average PC user, then they need to offer a computer for the average PC user.

Apple has one and it's called the iMac. It's not their cheapest and it's not their most expensive... it's average.

 

[ddavid]

The"die hard mac user" argument is madness too, what do you want a medal? So you spent 130,000 dollars buying one companies products and you think you should be treated specially? Let me tell you, some of the companies I work for in TV and Film pay millions of dollars for kit and they dont bitch on forums coz they made the right choices. If you are not happy then why not go down to your local Dell dealer, sell all the Apple kit and but yourself some lovely PCs then go sign up to a PC forum and moan that you want more for your money.

No I don't think I should be treated special,but I do think I have more insight than someone who bought their first mac last week with their Christmas money. I have spent $130,000 of my own money on Apple products and I've spent 20 times that for business use, my point is that I am an Apple customer, not a guy with an iPod and Macbook. All thatm may be irrelevant right now because my next $5,000 is the same as your quid in Apples opinion. I just think that I may not be the only "power user" that is starting to question the transparency of the Emperor's wardrobe.

edit: I just browsed the most recent Best Buy ad and the most expensive computer in there is a 13 inch Macbook at $1299. The closest is a 15 inch laptop with better specs at $999 with double the RAM, twice the HD and a faster processor. How can the average buyer justify that? Hell, I prefer OS X and I have a hard time explaining it

 

[ddavid]

No actually the more I think about it the more it doesn't seem true for the poeple in the market for a car like that don't consider GM because BMW is a very well known name for quality and performace. GM isn't so they will still buy the Beamer.

On the second note how come GM has BMW parts anyways?

I think you are missing the point of the analogy...

BMW is using GM parts.

 

[Hmac]

You must really like bologna.

When buying ram, Apple is 6X higher.
When you go to look for a laptop at Best Buy, you can get one for $500; Apples start at $1000
A desktop can had for $400 at Best Buy and Apple starts their iMacs at more than double. Granted you could configure the specs identically and the price disparity would decrease, however you would still be paying an "Apple tax." Most consumers can't reconcile paying $1500 for something they see sold elsewhere for $800. I'm sure you are savy enough to compare specs and come up with less of a difference, but there still is a gouge. I recommend Macs to friends and family but it gets tiring when they call every other week and say "you said to spend $1100 but I saw an ad in Sunday's paper for something similar for $499. Is this a good deal, or should I still buy a Mac?" There is becoming less and less difference in the specs for me to point to.

Apple is making a profit because of their iPod and iTunes. I don't know how much profit they'd make if you just counted computers. My point is that now that they are running the same processors, hard drives, video cards, and RAM the price disparity leaves the buyer wondering if they got screwed. Especially in my case where I'm buying a mac for myself and 6 for my business. Unless I buy something that is just released, I'm getting last years tech at todays tech prices

Apple has to match Acer, Dell, HP machine for machine? I don't think so. Looking at their bottom line, they seem to be doing pretty well. More people are using Macs than ever - up to 7%. I can only conclude that they must be right, and you must be wrong.

The title of the thread was Are Mac Pros slowly dying? Clearly Apple's marketing plan is working just fine and the answer is "no". You can be pissed off about RAM, video cards, and iMacs prices (don't forget hard drives) all you want. I'm sure Apple's marketing people have already factored in the fact that you're going to switch to a $499 Best Buy box. If losing your business hurts them, they'll drop the prices. Isn't capitalism great?

 

[ddavid]

Apple has to match Acer, Dell, HP machine for machine? I don't think so.

They didn't used to, but now that they are using the same parts off of the same shelf, I believe they should be more competitive. I think their days of being able to charge huge premiums over Windows machines are over. When you are buying 10 MacPro workstations and realize that you can get the same computing power and same software for $15K to $20K less, you have a hard time justifying it.

 

[heatmiser]

edit: I just browsed the most recent Best Buy ad and the most expensive computer in there is a 13 inch Macbook at $1299. The closest is a 15 inch laptop with better specs at $999 with double the RAM, twice the HD and a faster processor. How can the average buyer justify that? Hell, I prefer OS X and I have a hard time explaining it

Yeah, this is true. There's no way I'd recommend a Macbook to anyone who didn't explicitly state they were looking for form over function--and I own one. I've simply had too many PC laptops that have given me far better values at far lower prices, and I couldn't suggest a Mac laptop to anyone in good conscience. OS X just isn't worth the several hundred dollar difference between two books with equivalent hardware. I'd recommend a Gateway, an Acer, an HP, etc, but never a Macbook. At the end of the day, it's just an operating system, and you don't need OS X to surf the net, check mail, download music, watch movies, and do the other stuff 99% of people are looking to do with a laptop. You just don't.

 

[Umbongo]

edit: I just browsed the most recent Best Buy ad and the most expensive computer in there is a 13 inch Macbook at $1299. The closest is a 15 inch laptop with better specs at $999 with double the RAM, twice the HD and a faster processor. How can the average buyer justify that? Hell, I prefer OS X and I have a hard time explaining it

Maybe because the average buyer (who is looking at macs) expects said macbook to last 3-5 years, doesn't need what the faster computer offers, likes the idea of OSX and how the macbook looks and has no qualms paying an extra $300 for it.

 

[ddavid]

Maybe because the average buyer (who is looking at macs) expects said macbook to last 3-5 years, doesn't need what the faster computer offers, likes the idea of OSX and how the macbook looks and has no qualms paying an extra $300 for it.

So us mac buyers are smarter, richer, trendier and forward thinking? Wow, I take all that mac critique back now that I feel superior! Thanks!

 

[Hmac]

They didn't used to, but now that they are using the same parts off of the same shelf, I believe they should be more competitive. I think their days of being able to charge huge premiums over Windows machines are over. When you are buying 10 MacPro workstations and realize that you can get the same computing power and same software for $15K to $20K less, you have a hard time justifying it.

But why should they be more competitive? To be nice?

They don't care if you have a "hard time justifying it". They only care that you went ahead and bought 'em. If people stop buying their computers, then they'll do something differently, but in the meantime, profits are up, computer sales are up, market share is up. Why would they use a different marketing plan?

 

[Umbongo]

So us mac buyers are smarter, richer, trendier and forward thinking? Wow, I take all that mac critique back now that I feel superior! Thanks!

Glad I could help.

 

[gazfocus]

Without causing offence, some people really have no idea about PC hardware at all.

You cannot simply compare a PC to an Apple computer.

I am a PC Technician and build computers all the time, but I also love Apple computers.

The fact is that for a PC you can find 2 motherboards (equivelant to Apples Logic Boards), both with the same chipset (and often even both from the same manufacturer), and one would cost $100 and the other will cost $300.

Apple use highest quality components, where a $500 PC laptop won't use the same qaulity components, therefore, this is not a fair comparison. I built a PC for myself which was equivelant to the mid range iMac and it cost more than the iMac including the monitor which was a 22".

Unfortunately, majority of the 'off the shelf' PC's use either cheap or mid range hardware, whereas Apple don't.

However, I do agree that Apple RAM and HDD prices are excessive, but this is also the same when customising a Dell PC. Most people with common sense will buy any upgrades such as Ram and HDD's from a 3rd party.

I think one thing that would make Apple computers better would be to make them upgradeable. If you buy a PC, you can upgrade everything including the CPU. In an iMac (for example), the CPU is soldered to te Logic Board and therefore cannot be upgraded.

 

[Roy]

How would everyone feel if Apple charged regular PC prices (what ever that is) for their hardware, but then charged say $300 for OS X? Feel better? You would know why you are paying more and that would be for OS X. Isn't that why most people buy Mac computers (for Apple's OS) and Apple styled computers would come in 2nd?

 

[Digital Skunk]

No I don't think I should be treated special,but I do think I have more insight than someone who bought their first mac last week with their Christmas money. I have spent $130,000 of my own money on Apple products and I've spent 20 times that for business use, my point is that I am an Apple customer, not a guy with an iPod and Macbook. All thatm may be irrelevant right now because my next $5,000 is the same as your quid in Apples opinion. I just think that I may not be the only "power user" that is starting to question the transparency of the Emperor's wardrobe.

edit: I just browsed the most recent Best Buy ad and the most expensive computer in there is a 13 inch Macbook at $1299. The closest is a 15 inch laptop with better specs at $999 with double the RAM, twice the HD and a faster processor. How can the average buyer justify that? Hell, I prefer OS X and I have a hard time explaining it

Yeah... but it's not twice the price. Also, I am a bit sceptical on Apple's ability to stay on the bleeding edge, as if they ever were, but the design and the size of the machines can't be missed. The 13" MacBook is getting rave reviews at CNET and is the smallest laptop in it's class, only beaten by the Dell M1330 which costs about the same.

At the end of the day, it's just an operating system, and you don't need OS X to surf the net, check mail, download music, watch movies, and do the other stuff 99% of people are looking to do with a laptop. You just don't.

The real problem comes when you want to do more than the simple stuff. I won't tell anyone to get a Mac when they want to do the easy things that any OS can handle. They would be better off with the cheap PC. When they want to do anything at all involving media or design then the Mac is going to be the best choice... otherwise they should get a PC running Linux. Skip Vista.

 

[gazfocus]

Mac - PC Proce Comparison - UK

OK, so I read this thread and decided to do a comparison of the prices in UK.

Firstly, the iMac. I chose to go with the mid range model which is a 24" model with a 2.4GHz Processor.

Full specs:
2.4GHz Intel
Core 2 Duo
1GB memory
320GB hard drive1
8x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB memory
24" Screen
Mac OSX
iLife '08
iSight Webcam
Remote Control

Price: £1149


Now, a custom built Windows Vista PC, again gone for a mid range with a 24" screen and a 2.4GHz CPU.

Full Specs:
Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz (£150.39) (Mobile version is twice this price)
Asus P4E X38 Motherboard (£146.86)
Corsair 1GB DDR2 6400 RAM (£39.94)
Western Digital 320GB Hard Drive (£52.86)
Sony 20x DVD ReWriter (£21.14)
Sapphire ATI Radeon HD 2600 256MB Graphics (£61.09)
Anrec Sonata Tower Case and PSU (£72.84)
Microsoft Keyboard & Mouse (£17.61)
Logitech Webcam (£30.54)
Windows Vista Home Premium 64Bit (£70.49)
Windows MCE Remote (£22)
Dell 24" E248WFP LCD Monitor (£305.49)
Soundbar for Dell Monitor (iMac has built in speakers) (£14.09)
Belkin PCI Wifi(N) Card (£22.31)
Belkin Bluetooth Adapter (£21)
Nero Suite 8 (Multimedia suite comparible to Mac's iLife '08) (£50.51)

Total: £1099.16
YOU WILL ALSO NEED TO OBTAIN ANTI VIRUS, ANTI SPYWARE, AND FIREWALL SOFTWARE FOR WINDOWS PC'S.

Now, finally for a customised Dell system to the same spec as these.

Full Specs:
Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6550 (2.33GHz, 4MB, 1333MHz)
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium - English
Base Warranty - 1 Year XPS Premium Hardware Support (incl. Gaming and On-Site Support)
Dell™ 24" Black Wide Flat Panel (E248WFP) - UK/Irish
1024MB 667MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [2x512]
320GB (7200rpm) Serial ATA/100 Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst™ cache
256MB ATI® Radeon™ HD 2600 XT graphics card
16x DVD +/- RW Drive
Dell™ Enhanced USB Multimedia Keyboard - UK/Irish (QWERTY)
Dell Optical Scroll Premium Mouse
Accessories
Integrated HDA 7.1 Dolby Digital Audio
No Speakers
19-in-1 Media Card Reader
No Modem
Microsoft® Works 8.0 - English
Services & Software
No Accidental Damage Support
No Security/Anti-Virus Protection - English
Also Includes
XPS 420 English Documentation with UK/Irish Power Cord
D01X401
XPS Desktop Order - UK
Base Warranty - 1 Year XPS Premium Hardware Support (incl. Gaming and On-Site Support)
XPS 420 Resource DVD
Dell Soundbar Speakers
Belkin WiFi adapter
Belkin Bluetooth adapter
Windows Media Centre Remote
Nero Studio 8 (equivelant to iLife '08)

Total Price: £1102
YOU WILL NEED TO BUY ANTI VIRUS SOFTWARE FOR THIS PC

In conclusion, you only save £50 by buying a Windoze PC and that is with todays current prices!

POINT PROVEN! MACS ARE EXCELLENT VALUE!

 

[Blogger]

And the iMac uses the mobile processor so that it can be in such a slim enclosure. That is a big plus for desk space and important to a lot of people. If the Windows computers were so equipped they would be more expensive than the iMac.

 

[ddavid]

...
In conclusion, you only save £50 by buying a Windoze PC and that is with todays current prices!

POINT PROVEN! MACS ARE EXCELLENT VALUE!

Only £50? The downside is that you have to live in the UK! Here in the US, there is a greater disparity (see my comments above about the Best Buy ad) Most buyers aren't mother board/chipset/frontside cache/bus speed savy and the low price of Apple stuff isn't as apparent to them as it is to you.

Edit: Isn't your powerbook getting on in years? Hopefully they come out with a decent MBP at MWSF because I need to replace several. (damn I hate that you can't buy them with just 1 2GB RAM chip!!!)

 

[ddavid]

How would everyone feel if Apple charged regular PC prices (what ever that is) for their hardware, but then charged say $300 for OS X? Feel better?

I already have paid much more that $300 for OS X! Every time a new cat shows up it costs me at leas $200 for my own personal macs, not counting the money spent on upgrading business workstations (although I tend to wait a while for the bugs to get identified before doing that on system critical systems)

 

[zdobson]

I don't think this argument is going anywhere until the Mac Pro is updated.

I think that what it comes down to is this:
Yes, the Mac Pro in its current state is over-priced. However, if the system stays at the current price point when updated, it could be a tremendous value.

 

[Digital Skunk]

I already have paid much more that $300 for OS X! Every time a new cat shows up it costs me at leas $200 for my own personal macs, not counting the money spent on upgrading business workstations (although I tend to wait a while for the bugs to get identified before doing that on system critical systems)

Oh no... if you were buying Windows your costs would be in the thousands of dollars from the start. Some people do try to pull that "each time a cat comes out" card but that isn't even close to the situation that Windows users have.

If you were to buy each edition of OS X from the time time XP came out you would have bought $520 or so worth of Mac OS X spread across 4 versions. Windows didn't come out with that many versions but just the cost of Vista Ultimate is $400. Take out any one of the Mac OS X updates and the cost is less than Vista, and no one said that you had to buy each and every edition of OS X that comes out.

Honestly the only thing we can complain about with Apple hardware is the lack of professional equipment outside of the mid range MacBook Pro and 17" MacBook Pro and the Mac Pro. Everything else is just whining.

It's easy to take cheap shots at Apple, let's hit them were it really hurts. Can we get a M1330 version of a Mac? Or an HP Blackbird 002?

 

[timestamp]

$400 is it?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116213

 

[Eidorian]

$400 is it?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116213

Hey some people do pay these prices.

 

[timestamp]

Hey some people do pay these prices.

Some people buy Apple computers @ full price as well. There will always be idiots.

Most of those people didn't buy that particular copy from Newegg either, maybe you missed this feature: "Newegg purchaser review only"

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...nlyMark=False&=0&chkPurchaseMark=on&=50&Page=

 

[Eidorian]

Some people buy Apple computers @ full price as well. There will always be idiots.

I've never bought an Apple at full retail price.

 

[ddavid]

I don't think this argument is going anywhere until the Mac Pro is updated.

I think that what it comes down to is this:
Yes, the Mac Pro in its current state is over-priced. However, if the system stays at the current price point when updated, it could be a tremendous value.

I agree. If the specs were updated that would be cool. I'm still pissed that I have to throw away 2GB of RAM in each laptop in order to have 4GB! Why won't Apple just use one 2GB chip to begin with, or even better, charge a reasonable price for extra RAM!?

I've never bought an Apple at full retail price.

How do you pay less than retail?