iPhone 11 Pro Are PWM headaches real, and if so should I swap to iPhone 11?

[The.Glorious.Son]

Thank you. Thinking I’m going to pop in to an Apple store and have a look at an 11.

A bit off topic, but anyone know if I’ll still be OK to return my 11 Pro? I bought it on iUP on launch day - am I right in thinking I’ll still be covered by Apple’s standard 14 day return policy?

You should be. I returned my Pro Max yesterday in favor of the 11 and had zero problems doing so. That said, I found I really, really do not like the 11 so I am going back to the Pro Max again. So, if interested, go buy Tylenol and Eye Drops stocks because I will be making you rich if so lol.

 

[Kung]

Should be just fine. Launch day was the 20th, so you should have up until the 3rd of October.

 

[Matt__James]

You should be. I returned my Pro Max yesterday in favor of the 11 and had zero problems doing so. That said, I found I really, really do not like the 11 so I am going back to the Pro Max again. So, if interested, go buy Tylenol and Eye Drops stocks because I will be making you rich if so lol.

Oh really, what didn’t you like about the 11?

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

Oh really, what didn’t you like about the 11?

Please keep in mind this is purely my opinion and not to be taken as anything other than that because millions love the XR/11 series.
- I am 6'8" tall. Huge hands. The 11 felt narrow and cramped to me.
- I much prefer the width of the Plus models and Max Pro to the width of the 11
- I use the telephoto zoom lens a lot and I noticed quickly it was not there
- I admit, I did notice the fonts to be a bit more thin, less vibrant, with legibility slightly decreased
- Apps I use like Flipboard do not play well with the screen. Things are cut off. Drove me nuts
- I watched the Cowboys / Saints game on the Yahoo Sports app and the different in screen quality was evident

I prefer the biggest screen I can get without sacrificing width. That bothered me the most, closely followed by lack of telephoto lens and lastly the quality of the screen. It is a beautiful screen. But I think the 8 Plus screen looks better and the Pro Max screen even more-so better. Plenty will disagree with me, not care about the camera, etc. And that is fine. These are just my own personal feelings.

 

[Matt__James]

Please keep in mind this is purely my opinion and not to be taken as anything other than that because millions love the XR/11 series.
- I am 6'8" tall. Huge hands. The 11 felt narrow and cramped to me.
- I much prefer the width of the Plus models and Max Pro to the width of the 11
- I use the telephoto zoom lens a lot and I noticed quickly it was not there
- I admit, I did notice the fonts to be a bit more thin, less vibrant, with legibility slightly decreased
- Apps I use like Flipboard do not play well with the screen. Things are cut off. Drove me nuts
- I watched the Cowboys / Saints game on the Yahoo Sports app and the different in screen quality was evident

I prefer the biggest screen I can get without sacrificing width. That bothered me the most, closely followed by lack of telephoto lens and lastly the quality of the screen. It is a beautiful screen. But I think the 8 Plus screen looks better and the Pro Max screen even more-so better. Plenty will disagree with me, not care about the camera, etc. And that is fine. These are just my own personal feelings.

All sounds fair enough. From a size point, I’m coming from a regular 11 Pro, so the 11 would actually be an increase. The telephoto lens one does slightly concern me as I have regularly used it over the past 2 years, but I can’t work out of really I’m only using it ‘because it’s there’ so to speak. I’m not an avid photographer, just the usual snaps.

The screen resolution though is my main concern. I enjoy spending time on my phone reading news/Twitter etc, in the week arguably my favourite part of my day is the last hour where I finally crash on the sofa with a cuppa and catch up on the world. I’m worried therefore that a decrease in resolution will bug me, but I’m thinking the only way to find out is bite the bullet and return my 11 Pro, try an 11 and see. If it annoys me so much, maybe I’ll then have to return the 11 and go back to 11 Pro! (If it’s possible to do that!)

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

All sounds fair enough. From a size point, I’m coming from a regular 11 Pro, so the 11 would actually be an increase. The telephoto lens one does slightly concern me as I have regularly used it over the past 2 years, but I can’t work out of really I’m only using it ‘because it’s there’ so to speak. I’m not an avid photographer, just the usual snaps.

The screen resolution though is my main concern. I enjoy spending time on my phone reading news/Twitter etc, in the week arguably my favourite part of my day is the last hour where I finally crash on the sofa with a cuppa and catch up on the world. I’m worried therefore that a decrease in resolution will bug me, but I’m thinking the only way to find out is bite the bullet and return my 11 Pro, try an 11 and see. If it annoys me so much, maybe I’ll then have to return the 11 and go back to 11 Pro! (If it’s possible to do that!)

Keep an open mind and keep us posted on where you land. I think you’ll be happy with the 11 screen. I just had other more prominent things bugging me to where I lumped it in.

 

[BigBen2493]

It's weird with the PWM, NBC said it was higher at 290 hz however that review says that the frequency is irregular and ranges between 60 and 290.7 hz, also the NBC review for the pro max says 245 hz pwm and the regular pro says 290.7 hz, So very strange and inconsistent, links down below:

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-...-mehr-Power-auf-den-Handy-Olymp.434956.0.html

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-...ie-vielen-Detail-Verbesserungen.434752.0.html

 

[Matt__James]

It's weird with the PWM, NBC said it was higher at 290 hz however that review says that the frequency is irregular and ranges between 60 and 290.7 hz, also the NBC review for the pro max says 245 hz pwm and the regular pro says 290.7 hz, So very strange and inconsistent, links down below:

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-...-mehr-Power-auf-den-Handy-Olymp.434956.0.html

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-...ie-vielen-Detail-Verbesserungen.434752.0.html

Interesting, thank you

 

[felixen2121]

So strange with this PWM. I think I am having nocebo effects myself. When I first got my X, it gave me eye strain, but after a few weeks I got used to it and forgot about the problem. I just upgraded to the 11 Pro (so close to going for the 11 instead). I have been following the long eye-strain thread on here, and now feel like the 11 Pro is giving me eye-strain. I really think it is mental, but I can’t really shake it.

I am getting a bit concerned though. Is it really like staring into a strobe light? People are saying that Apple is acting unethical with their bad implementation of OLED. Is it really that bad, or is it getting blown out of proportion?

I feel like it should be mentioned on major news sites if the OLED phones really are an issue to eye health.
Sorry if this is a slight derail of the thread.

 

[TheMountainLife]

While this is obviously anecdotal, there's an account over on Reddit of a guy who suffered a grand mal seizure who also owned an iPhone XS. Once out of the hospital, he started having 'focal seizures.' Once he read about the XS PWM and all that, he turned off all the stuff (require attention, face ID) and reduced his usage, and they stopped.

https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/co9eof
From what I read, only a small subset of the population that suffers from epilepsy is triggered by flashing lights; and supposedly, of those, the vast majority are sensitive between 3-30Hz, with some up to 60Hz. I believe the PWM is much higher than that, so ostensibly it *shouldn't* trigger it.

With that said, I'm told by people that it's in my head that the phone's bothering my eyes....even though I'm absolutely fine if I don't use my XS, and even though I can look @ it for 10 or so minutes and feel eye strain and headaches coming on.

Thanks for sharing that, it makes sense and is not really a risk I want to take then. We did discover cheaper LCD & LED televisions during commercial would cause Petite Mal's. Not sure if it's because of the inconsistencies of motion/flicker or what. There was a Nissan commerical that would do it every time. Turning down the colors and contrast helped.

 

[Matt__James]

So strange with this PWM. I think I am having nocebo effects myself. When I first got my X, it gave me eye strain, but after a few weeks I got used to it and forgot about the problem. I just upgraded to the 11 Pro (so close to going for the 11 instead). I have been following the long eye-strain thread on here, and now feel like the 11 Pro is giving me eye-strain. I really think it is mental, but I can’t really shake it.

I am getting a bit concerned though. Is it really like staring into a strobe light? People are saying that Apple is acting unethical with their bad implementation of OLED. Is it really that bad, or is it getting blown out of proportion?

I feel like it should be mentioned on major news sites if the OLED phones really are an issue to eye health.
Sorry if this is a slight derail of the thread.

Not a derail, interesting thanks

 

[Zune55]

I'm the same. Not a fan of reading white text on black backgrounds. It feels harder on my eyes.

Try wearing sunglasses with white background and black text. It would be very comfortable for your eyes plus you will sleep fast.

 

[Matt__James]

Try wearing sunglasses with white background and black text. It would be very comfortable for your eyes plus you will sleep fast.

Lol, sounds interesting!

 

[Matt__James]

A bit of an update for anyone interested in this. I took the plunge and returned my 11 Pro for a regular 11.

So far, so good. I definitely don’t feel the strain as much on my eyes so headaches shouldn’t happen. I may just be a special flower, but for me personally I think the PWM headaches were real and this is now a nicer experience.

In terms of the phone comparison, I’m very impressed with the 11. To be honest, it’s now made me think the Pro’s are overpriced. Only my opinion, but to me the bigger bezels are absolutely not noticeable, and the screen resolution isn’t as much of a factor as I imagine either. If I focus hard on something, yes I can tell the difference between this and the Pro, but in ‘normal’ day use, I absolutely don’t notice it. So essentially, the extra money for the Pro (to me) would just be for the telephoto camera. Whilst I did like that feature, I don’t think it’s worth the huge price hike.

But that’s all just my 2 cents! Headaches feeling better, that’s what matters.

 

[asjdwf]

How’s the 11 battery life compared to the pro?

 

[jm31828]

.

 

[jm31828]

It does not. Some have complained they still had symptoms with the Xr and now the 11. But that could be placebo, paranoia, or even the oft mentioned potential effects of all of the sensors used for face ID, awareness recognition, proximity sensor, etc. Many variables are at play.

Has there been anything found out there that may truly point to the proximity sensor, the faceID projector, etc. that could indeed cause some eye strain?

I just upgraded 2 weeks ago from an 8Plus to a regular 11 (not Pro) and I have been having some eye strain- similar to what I experienced last year for a couple of weeks when I tried out an XS. I thought at that time it was PWM causing it, so I went to the 8Plus and the discomfort remained but faded away after about a month.
Could just be my eyes being very sensitive and trying to adjust to the bigger display, but now I am wondering if it could be the faceID sensors and such since I of course had those on the XS, too. I have turned off FaceID and awareness recognition- but have heard that the flood illuminator and proximity sensors still shine every 5 seconds or so- maybe that is causing some people some discomfort?

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

Has there been anything found out there that may truly point to the proximity sensor, the faceID projector, etc. that could indeed cause some eye strain?

I just upgraded 2 weeks ago from an 8Plus to a regular 11 (not Pro) and I have been having some eye strain- similar to what I experienced last year for a couple of weeks when I tried out an XS. I thought at that time it was PWM causing it, so I went to the 8Plus and the discomfort remained but faded away after about a month.
Could just be my eyes being very sensitive and trying to adjust to the bigger display, but now I am wondering if it could be the faceID sensors and such since I of course had those on the XS, too. I have turned off FaceID and awareness recognition- but have heard that the flood illuminator and proximity sensors still shine every 5 seconds or so- maybe that is causing some people some discomfort?

Just to level set I am the furthest from an expert on this. But from the various threads I have followed the last couple of years, the issue of the flood illuminator always flashing has resulted in numerous threads, hundreds of posts, and always fade out to a dead end. There doesn't seem to be an explanation and Apple hasn't to my knowledge spoken about it. Many forum 'experts' believe that that even if it continues to flash after having turned off face ID, attention awareness disabled, not doing an animoji, etc....there is no harm and should be no side effects due to the extremely low level of light pulsating. In addition, the proximity sensors have been in our phones for many years so this that should not be an issue now when it wasn't before.

My honest answer is, I don't have a definitive answer. I truly believe that the more aware a person is regarding the potential for PWM strain or the sensors in the notch, if their personality fits that of a person prone to mild+ anxiety, it can trigger symptoms. To this day, I cannot tell you if what I experience is actually due to PWM, or sensors, or anxiety over the possibility of having symptoms. But I CAN tell you that when I am on my 8 Plus, I experience none of the things I have with OLED phones. That could be due to lack of the PWM, or lack of the sensors, or the fact that I don't worry about having symptoms when I am using the 8 Plus (note: I acknowledge there are people who 100% genuinely are impacted by PWM. I am using myself only as an example of someone prone to bringing on symptoms through continuous hyper focus).

One poster mentioned the that going from years using the Plus and it's sharper, bolder text to the lower resolution/less striking font of the XR and regular 11 possibly caused eye strain. It is a theory that could be considered.

Out of curiosity, when you moved into the 11, were you self-aware and even mildly anxious at the chance of having eye strain on your new phone?

 

[jm31828]

Thanks for the response!
Yeah, to be honest I was self aware, sort of wondering if I’d have eye pain with this new phone as I had a year ago, even though I knew this one didn’t have pwm. And about a week into using it I started having these symptoms.

Maybe it’s just my paranoia and it’ll fade in time- as noted it continued for a month last year when switching to the 8plus, then faded.
I do have sensitive eyes and when getting new laptops over the years I’ve experienced eye weirdness, which always faded after some time, so who knows? This is the biggest screen phone I’ve ever had, that could be it.

I guess I’ll leave Face ID and the other settings off, see how it goes. If it never goes away, maybe I’ll consider selling this snd buying the se2 in the Spring when it comes out.

 

[GlenK]

It started with me on the X. I've tried X, Xs, and Xr and all three gave me headaches! Haven't even bothered to try the 11 yet but am reading the same issues are there. Still using my 8+ and it's starting to look like I'm done when it finally dies. Hopefully they do something to help this situation as I'm seeing more and more people with similar issues.

 

[Stig722]

Yeah I had the same story. Terrible experience with the X. Fantastic experience with the 8 plus. Just got the 11 (the regular 11) and while it’s not as bad as the X, something is off.

 

[CrazyForCashews]

Yeah I had the same story. Terrible experience with the X. Fantastic experience with the 8 plus. Just got the 11 (the regular 11) and while it’s not as bad as the X, something is off.

It's most likely the lower resolution screen and PPI on the XR/11.

In comparison the 8 Plus has a much nicer and higher pixel density screen.

 

[251920]

1. There actually is a handy gadget that measures PWM (Radex Lupin).
2. I believe in the PWM effect on ones eyes, cause I have it. My eyes water and feel like needles being struck at them, after that I get dull annoying headaches, when it’s hard to even look at any display or light source.
3. The maximum considered healthy limit of the PWM is 5-10%, after that the flickering is considered unhealthy for the eyes, nervous system and the brain, coz if you don’t notice it doesn’t mean that the brain doesn’t register every flicker (officially untested territory, we’ll probably tested but official results haven’t been made public (the same as lot of other money making, but unhealthy, things/matters etc),coz of all the money that the OLED screens bring in. Apple, Samsung or any other manufacturer will never admit the PWM issues, on contrary the issues will either be contradicted or be kept quit. (Same as it was with tobacco, when millions were paid in adverts and biased test to keep the cancer and other health risks at bay).
4. The new Pro Max OLED is better than the X and XS with keeping to the stated “healthy” limits, that shows that Apple is aware of the issue and is quietly trying to take measures. The Pro/Pro Max displays go over the 10% limit, when the brightness is reduced to 30% or lower(the PWM in that case goes over a 100%), with the Xs/Xs Max it only took for the brightness to go under 70-60% when the PWM crossed 100%.
And yeah, the PWM of the Xr and iPhone 11 display does not exceed 3%-3,5% at any level of brightness.

 

[Dejected]

The new Pro Max OLED is better than the X and XS with keeping to the stated “healthy” limits, that shows that Apple is aware of the issue and is quietly trying to take measures.

is there any chance for a flicker-free oled iphone ?

 

[imp3rator]

What does mean 3-3,5% for xr/11 ? Shouldn’t be lcd models flicker free ?