are we able to counter centrino?

[acj]

Centrino is no big deal, Pentium-M is

To clarify a few things, Centrino is the package that includes the not-so-spectacular wireless capabilities. Manufacturers can choose to provide another solution with the Pentium-M. And it's not like Intel is saying they invented wireless technology with Centrino, just like Apple isn't saying they invented it with AirPort.

About the Pentium-M, I think Apple does have something to worry about. It is appearing in some very attractive notebooks, and it beats even DUAL G4's in some speed tests, not to mention a single G4 in a PowerBook. And this is in its infancy!

One interesting thing is the battery life given by the manufacturer seems to be much more accurate than Apples. When was the last time you got the advertised 5 hours on your Powerbook? And how about DVD watching. The IBM T40 has been repeatedly tested to get nearly 5 HOURS of DVD playback!

 

[acj]

power

Originally posted by DarkNovaMatter
I don't know how much the current G4's use in power but even if they don't consume less than the new centrino we will have a good way to offset the centrino. The 970 at 1.2 ghz uses 19 watts (at 130 nm) the lowest I think the centrino can go at its 14 (I think, 24 watts for 1.4 ghz) and thats downclocking the processor to 700 or 800 mhz. Whats even more exciting is that imagine when the 970 will go to 90 nm (for the powerbooks I'm guessing they will go for that instead of the 130 nm version), lower power usage and faster speeds. I am sapposing that since its a 30% shrinking with going from 130nm to 90 nm that power usage will go down about the same percentage (the # of electrons needed to compute is directly related to the size of the chip, die size,etc.- thus the reason why shrinking the die size gives better scaling capabilities and reduced power needs). That means the 1.2 ghz will go from about 19 watts to about 12 or 13 watts. The future of Apple and Powerbooks verry bright with the 970, the other specs I am sure you already know of.

The Pentium-M can downclock to 600MHz and it uses just 6 watts. Sure that's slow but it will play a DVD smooth (see above post) and it is for all practical purposes instant at changing the clock speed based on need. It constantly changes the speed and proves to be a very efficient way of providing performance with low power usage.

And 90 nm? It's not only IBM who'll be doing this.

 

[acj]

even good on gaming

Even something that demands max performance and no throttling gets good battery life...

tomshardware has some link breaking technology so it's pictures aren't stollen. Check it out yourself to see the benchmarks if you care.

 

[macktheknife]

I have been looking at Dell's Pentium-M offerings, which you can check out here:

http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/offers/specials_m_inspn600m.htm

AnandTech basically puts the speed of the 1.6 GHz Pentium-M on par with the 2.2 - 2.4 GHz Pentium 4 Mobile Edition, with the 1.5 GHz Pentium-M falling somewhere within the 2.0 - 2.2 GHz range. You can read the full review here.

Pretty nice, IMHO. I think Intel's on to something here.

 

[G5orbust]

Originally posted by macktheknife
I think Intel's on to something here.

Yes, its called making/clocking chips like AMD and Apple have for years now. And look what its getting them.

 

[iJon]

I think intel has got us beat on this one. I was looking at the latest pc guide and the reviewed the centrino laptops. The Toshiba which has a 15 inch screen and more stuff like a regular laptop got 7 hours of battery life, thats incredible.

iJon

 

[sparkleytone]

Originally posted by iJon
I think intel has got us beat on this one. I was looking at the latest pc guide and the reviewed the centrino laptops. The Toshiba which has a 15 inch screen and more stuff like a regular laptop got 7 hours of battery life, thats incredible.

iJon

yeah, but was it made of ALYOUMINUM????

 

[jxyama]

For most not technically savy people, upgradeability is not really an issue. So they will be sold on the WiFi part. They will be happy that their computer is connected to the Internet and there's no PC card sticking out from the side, as many do right now. They won't even realize that it's the slowest wireless standard because they don't know any better.

Battery life is the same. Not many of them need 7 hours, but they will just figure longer the better, regardless of the need. (The same mechanism that feeds more GHz the better, even just to check email and surf the web. Or to purchase a monstrosity SUV with a V12 that can navigate the frozen tundra and sand dunes to be used for grocery shopping.)

Intel is a good brand for being recognized by most of the public. From our point of view, their campaign is quite shrewed and tacky, but I think they will be quite successful. I hope Apple will at least hold its current place and not get squashed by Wintel junk campaign.

...I almost worked for Intel. I sure am glad I don't.

 

[firestarter]

Originally posted by jxyama
For most not technically savy people, upgradeability is not really an issue. So they will be sold on the WiFi part. They will be happy that their computer is connected to the Internet and there's no PC card sticking out from the side, as many do right now. They won't even realize that it's the slowest wireless standard because they don't know any better.

And frankly, they won't notice the difference. 802.11b is an OK speed, and unless you have a VERY fast connection, it's probably 5x faster than your ADSL/cable. At a coffee shop you'll be limited to 802.11b anyway. The only time you'll need the faster connection is if you're connecting to file servers in your house, and if you're doing that you're probably savvy enough to tick the '802.11g' box when you're ordering your laptop (with Dell you get to swap out the standard card for a better one for example).

Battery life is the same. Not many of them need 7 hours, but they will just figure longer the better, regardless of the need. (The same mechanism that feeds more GHz the better, even just to check email and surf the web. Or to purchase a monstrosity SUV with a V12 that can navigate the frozen tundra and sand dunes to be used for grocery shopping.)

Well longer is better. At least it was when Apple had the longest battery times. Is that hipocracy I smell?

Intel is a good brand for being recognized by most of the public. From our point of view, their campaign is quite shrewed and tacky, but I think they will be quite successful. I hope Apple will at least hold its current place and not get squashed by Wintel junk campaign.

Whatever. They've just released chips that are a lot faster and more powerful, and they've got the PC laptop manufacturers to jump on board with wireless. They deserve the success they get.

...I almost worked for Intel. I sure am glad I don't.

Oh please.

 

[macktheknife]

As many posts have mentioned, what Intel is touting for Centrino in their ads (wireless networking) is not something totally new. Nonetheless, the entire architecture of the Pentium-M (the new Pentium mobile processors) is new, and many PC reviewers have heaped praise upon praise on the new chip's processing power.

If the benchmarks could be believed, the 1.6 GHz Centrino Pentium-M processors can perform on par with a 2.2 GHz Pentium 4 Mobile processor. This is very impressive, and I would be interested to see how the current 1 GHz G4 lineup stacks up against the Centrinos.

 

[jxyama]

ha ha, firestarter... good name. got me riled up.

the main problem i have with intel is the fact they have such a strong alliance with microsoft. i have used windows, linux, unix (in various flavors) and mac (x and older) in varying degrees and it is my personal opinion that windows is absolutely the worst os for average consumers and microsoft is the worst developer/provider of os.

i am not a developer, an administrator or an it manager. i use computers for everyday tasks and wish that more people could avoid using windows and microsoft because it tends to make computers clumsy and a pain to deal with.
(please, don't reply on how windows isn't so bad, you won't convince me, just like i won't convince you.) this is after two pcs just mysteriously died within three years on my mom, who never installed any programs and used computers to check email twice a day and look at some webpages.

anyway, anything that sells intel would sell more microsoft. that's why i have a problem with intel. this is strictly a personal opinion and extremely biased (i never claimed not to be), and for that reason, i cannot support intel. i wish more people would have a better access to better computing experience and intel, as i see it, is not helping that cause. (don't even get started on telling average users to just install linux if they don't like windows.)

however, you are right. i think intel will do quite well with this campaign. that doesn't mean i have to agree with the success or the cause. i guess i am being a little idealistic... these are companies, afterall, they want $$$ more than help people have a good time. (yeah, yeah, i know, apple is a corporation too...) sigh.

 

[evilsprung]

Hi all,
I'm a mac newbie, just bought a 12" PB about 3 weeks ago, and after reading your posts I;d have to say they're all pretty biased and trivial. What does it matter that the Centrino might be out the Apple's G4 or 970?. Seriously, I believe its such a trivial gripe. I'll admit I owned more PC's than Macs, but it's not like I'm hoping Intel is gonna win or Apple. In the end they're both processors, but with different architectures. And likewise each has it's own strengh and weaknesses. This kind of battle should be left for the companies, putting it on the consumer level I think is just retarded. In any case, I'm impressed with both architectures, and I love my G4 as much as I love my P4.
I don't know, that's just what I think. Take it with a grain of salt if you want.

 

[vniow]

I was sitting here last nite reading the AnandTech review and was thouroughly impressed with the overall design of the chip and how innovative and well performing it was (the 1.6Ghz Banias matched a 2.4Ghz PIV desktop chip in some benchmarks!

)
And I was also impressed with the battery life until I found out how it accomplished it:

http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1800&p=8

Take a look at the bottom chart and you'll see that while it's going to run at full speed when its plugged into the wall, it will also throttle down to 600Mhz on battery life.
Which is no big suprise really, all of Intel's mobile chips use that Speedstep technology and while 600Mhz may be enough for basic tasks (even watching a DVD) if you do a lot of CPU intensive work while you're on the road, then an Intel based notebook is not for you.

Other than that the Banias is an amazing chip, I just with it didn't lose so much power on the battery.

 

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by evilsprung
Hi all,
I'm a mac newbie, just bought a 12" PB about 3 weeks ago, and after reading your posts I;d have to say they're all pretty biased and trivial. What does it matter that the Centrino might be out the Apple's G4 or 970?. Seriously, I believe its such a trivial gripe. I'll admit I owned more PC's than Macs, but it's not like I'm hoping Intel is gonna win or Apple. In the end they're both processors, but with different architectures. And likewise each has it's own strengh and weaknesses. This kind of battle should be left for the companies, putting it on the consumer level I think is just retarded. In any case, I'm impressed with both architectures, and I love my G4 as much as I love my P4.
I don't know, that's just what I think. Take it with a grain of salt if you want.

-evilsprung

You may be evil, you may be sprung, but you're a breath of fresh air.

Very well said. We can use more of that perspective around here.

 

[bokdol]

on a side note.

something strage was happening while i was reading the last sundays washington post. the were talking about the new wifi technology from intel and how wifi is change the way people use their computers. there was no mention about airport or airport extreme or the difference between a/b or g. after skimming through it (did not get a chance to read it all) it seems like with your pc and "wifi" you can get on the internet faster and better then most home connections. and it portable. there was not mention of compatablity of macs and airport. actually nothing at all on macs. these articals in major news papers influence the way people see things andhow people view computers.

as far as the average joe who reads this article thinks. intel made this new wireless feature call wifi. and centrino makes your laptop run longer. and centrino is faster then moblile p4. which every one knowes that p4 are faster then apple computers... ...... so on and so on

from what i can tell it well be harder and harder to switch people as people think intel comes out with new technology and apple just sits there....

 

[jxyama]

Interesting, Vniow... PB/iBook does the same, but I think we get a choice on whether to run at reduced CPU or not... 600 MHz, eh? I guess Intel won't mention that too loudly. Will that make Pentium-M's slower than G3 and G4s?

I think everyone should make the CPU run at 1 MHz on battery and claim 3 days as the battery life.

[edit]
Marketing/performance aside, I like the fact Intel went back and designed this chip from the group up. Now, only if Microsoft would quit the bloat and build a real OS from group up, I'd switch back... Nah, I think I'll stick with OS X. I like blue aqua.
[/edit]

 

[jefhatfield]

Re: on a side note.

Originally posted by bokdol


from what i can tell it well be harder and harder to switch people as people think intel comes out with new technology and apple just sits there....

if you list the innovations apple has produced, it is amazing

but when you realize that everything else was done in the wintel world, yeah i know - lots of pc companies, one sees why people use pcs

centrino is great...maybe not as much as intel says, but their ads get the word out and i am sure there are a lot of laptop users on the market who will find centrino irresistable

as time goes on, the prices will go down for centino laptops

 

[bokdol]

Re: Re: on a side note.

Originally posted by jefhatfield
if you list the innovations apple has produced, it is amazing

it is amazing!! but if you dont realize apple has it or even uses it then there is a problem.
i bet you most people would not know airport and wifi is compatable and airport extreme is at least twice as fast as wifi. (a /b to g standards) but they wont know...

 

[acj]

Just as fast on battery!

Originally posted by jxyama
Interesting, Vniow... PB/iBook does the same, but I think we get a choice on whether to run at reduced CPU or not... 600 MHz, eh? I guess Intel won't mention that too loudly. Will that make Pentium-M's slower than G3 and G4s?

Agh!

You don't understand, it constantly changes the clock speed based on demand, and it does this very quickly and very efficiently. That's why it performs just as well unplugged, AND gets good battery life.

This is of course when you have power management set on "Laptop" and not "Max battery" Don't stop reading, listen... if you do word processing or whatever, you will get the SAME battery life with either setting. If you play games or do something that is CPU intensive, you will get MAX performance but lower battery life.

SO: "Max battery" setting locks the CPU at 600MHz. Essentially pointless because you will need the laptop on longer to complete intesive tasks, and the next setting can last just as long. read on.

"Laptop" setting constantly changes between 600MHz-1.6GHz (or whatever the max is) This means most of the time it's at 600MHz, because that's enough for most tasks. When you load a program, compress a file, run a photoshop command, play a game, etc, the CPU cranks up the speed only while needed.

"Max performance" locks the CPU at it's highest speed. This is stupid, because "Laptop" setting appears exactly as fast because it IS as fast when needed, but saves battery when not being used.

A final misconception is that it only has good battery life when sitting Idle. Unfortunately, this is only true of the Powerbooks. The Pentium-M based notebooks get great battery life even when gaming. As I mentioned before, some, like the IBM T40, get almost 5 hours when watching a DVD! That's more than twice as good as a powerbook.

It really is the year of the notebook. But not for Apple.

 

[iJon]

Battery life is the same. Not many of them need 7 hours, but they will just figure longer the better, regardless of the need. (The same mechanism that feeds more GHz the better, even just to check email and surf the web. Or to purchase a monstrosity SUV with a V12 that can navigate the frozen tundra and sand dunes to be used for grocery shopping.) [/B]

saying they dont need that much battery life is basically admitting defeat. i would love to be able to take my laptop out of school and not have to string power adpters across the floor for people to trip, hell i just dont want to get it out period. i can lay in my bed with out a power adapter strung across the bed. and with that you could probably watch a full movie that is longer than an hour and a half on the laptop. but the still the weight, size, and looks make it unatractive. but for a windows user it is one hell of a laptop.

iJon

 

[firestarter]

Originally posted by jxyama
ha ha, firestarter... good name. got me riled up.

I must be doing something right

(please, don't reply on how windows isn't so bad, you won't convince me, just like i won't convince you.)

You don't need to convince me. Just ordered my 12inch PowerBook yesterday.

Apple does a lot of good things. I'm a Unix programmer, and I really want to start using OSX, rather than W2K. But just because Apple is doing stuff right (right enough for me to part with some hard earned ca$h) doesn't mean that we need to pretend Centrino is a bad product. It's a fantastic processor, coupled with an average WiFi card and a dodgy advertising campaign. Apple need to stay focussed - too much Mac fan adulation is bad for them.

 

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by firestarter
Apple does a lot of good things. I'm a Unix programmer, and I really want to start using OSX, rather than W2K. But just because Apple is doing stuff right (right enough for me to part with some hard earned ca$h) doesn't mean that we need to pretend Centrino is a bad product. It's a fantastic processor, coupled with an average WiFi card and a dodgy advertising campaign. Apple need to stay focussed - too much Mac fan adulation is bad for them.

We need more reasoned thinking like this to not let Apple take its customers for granted. Whatever one may think of Intel's Centrino advertising campaign, the fact that the Pentium-M has received lots of praises in the industry for its new architecture, incredible processor speed, and longer battery life is something Apple and its customers need to pay attention to.

We can argue until our faces are blue that Apple was the first to come out with WiFi computing for the masses (or whatever). But at the end of the day, Apple still needs to compete against Dell, HP, IBM, etc. for the hearts and cash of potential customers. Should we thumb our noses at the latest offerings from Honda or Toyota just because Ford was the first company to mass produce the automobile?

Personally, I am seriously considering switching back to a PC after doing some research and reading some articles by Anandtech and Tom's Hardware touting the Centrino's performance. I am sure that many other potential customers like me (switchers and potential switchers) are also looking at Centrino. Apple laptops already have WiFi capabilities, it just needs to demonstrate that its computers have enough raw processor power to compete against Intel's offerings.

 

[jxyama]

Hey y'all... Thanks for the education. Love learning more stuff. I love Apple, but I sure don't want to be blindly faithful.

 

[AndyNotts]

Sorry but why does Apple need to combat centrino? I've seen the reviews of Toshiba and Acer laptops and neither of them in tests has lasted more than 2 hours. My iBook can run over 3 hours so where is the competiton?

Intel has even dropped pushing MHz as they claim the slower centrino processors have greater performance than the regular mobile P4's.

 

[Cubeboy]

Originally posted by AndyNotts
Sorry but why does Apple need to combat centrino? I've seen the reviews of Toshiba and Acer laptops and neither of them in tests has lasted more than 2 hours. My iBook can run over 3 hours so where is the competiton?

Intel has even dropped pushing MHz as they claim the slower centrino processors have greater performance than the regular mobile P4's.

Umm, your looking at the wrong processor there buddy. Why don't we compare a Centrino equipped laptop to the best powerbook.

Processor:
PowerBook: G4 1ghz
IBM T40: Pentium-M 1.6ghz +

Memory:
PowerBook: PC2700 DDR 512mb
IBM T40: PC2100 DDR 512mb/2gb +

Video Card
PowerBook: Geforce4 440 Go - 64 mb
IBM T40: Mobile FireGL 9000 - 64 mb +

Hard Drive
PowerBook: 60 GB 4200 RPM ATA-100
IBM T40: 40 GB 5400 RPM ATA-100 +

Size (HxWxD):
PowerBook: 1.0" x 15.4" x 10.2"
IBM T40: 1.0" x 12.2" x 10" +

Weight:
PowerBook: 6.8lb
IBM T40:4.9lb +

Battery Life:
PowerBook: 4.5 hours
IBM T40: 7.0 hours +

Wireless:
PowerBook: 802.11g, BT, IRDA +
IBM T40: 802.11a/b, BT, IRDA

USB:
PowerBook: 2 x 1.1
IBM T40: 2 x 2.0 +

Price:
PowerBook: $3,299.00 +
IBM T40: $3,349.00

Warranty
PowerBook: 1 year
IBM T40: 3 years +

Let's see, the T40 is smaller, lighter, much faster, runs 2.5 hours longer, and has a better warranty.

The PowerBook has superior wireless capabilities, OSX and costs 50 dollars less.

The shining point of Centrino is the Pentium M as it offers Pentium 4 level performance without the power usage. And no, Intel is still going with mhzs, the Prescott (Pentium 5) set to launch in 2h of 2003 will scale to 5 ghzs even though clock to clock, it will be significantly better than the current P4.