As a casual Apple Pencil user, I have to admit promotion makes a notable difference

Discussion in 'iPad' started by Aluminum213, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Aluminum213 macrumors 68040

    Aluminum213

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    Mar 16, 2012
    #1
    I bought the Apple Pencil the day I bought the iPad Pro 9.7, don’t think I used the Apple Pencil more then a few times. I was very excited to finally switch to digital notes but even with what was stated as “industry best latency”, I still couldn’t get over the lag and writing never felt natural. I gave notability a shot again this past week and I was able to finally feel comfortable using Apple Pencil for writing. Yes I still noticed the 20ms latency but it is so slight it didn’t bother me.
     
  2. rowspaxe macrumors 68000

    rowspaxe

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    #2
    fyi--Pencil is latency unrelated to "promation". Seperate technical issues.
     
  3. sosumi99 macrumors member

    sosumi99

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    #3
    That’s incorrect. The faster refresh rate gives the pencil reduced latency. You can see it from here:

     
  4. spiderman0616 macrumors 68030

    spiderman0616

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    #4
    FYI: ProMotion is the reason why an Apple Pencil hardware upgrade was not needed. The new screen tech makes the Apple Pencil performance literally twice as fast. The tech in the Apple Pencil has not changed at all and probably will not need to change for some time.
     
  5. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #5
    i dont know. i draw every day for a living and i cant say the new promotion makes a difference in my drawing experience.

    i notice the speed, but i can draw just as well on my old ipad pro as the new one.

    i would have been happier with textured glass, a floating cursor to increase accuracy, or a thinner screen to decrease parallax. better palm rejection would be nice too.

    My wacom gear is slightly slower but is still a much better drawing experience because they focus on tactile feel more.

    for me its not much of a upgrade. But i do love my ipad pro's. they are great for the price as a entry level device , as long as you dont expect too much from the hardware or software.
     
  6. zhenya macrumors 603

    zhenya

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    #6
    If you tried the Pencil early on in the 9.7” development you may be feeling software optimization of the apps more than anything. Both Notability and Goodnotes greatly improved the inking experience over the past year or so to the point that they are better than the native Notes app. I’m a huge Pencil user and have used many apps and devices. Less latency is better, but these updates had largely eliminated any feeling of lag on my end long ago.
     
  7. rowspaxe macrumors 68000

    rowspaxe

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    #7
    Thanks for the link. I don't know if i accept this as the surface pen has 21ms latency with 60 hz refresh.
    I saw this
    Apple says that the latency (delay) of the pencil is down to 20 milliseconds, but with the higher refresh and some additional behind-the-scenes predictive magic, it can actually get down as low as a perceived 8ms
    https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/12/apple-pays-off-its-future-of-computing-promise-with-ipad-pro/

    I am uncertain at this point. Thanks
     
  8. Krevnik macrumors 68040

    Krevnik

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    #8
    There’s multiple factors that play into latency. One of them has to be screen refresh, because it limits how quickly you can get the results of input back to the user’s eye. The other thing worth mentioning is that apps add their own latency. So both Apple and Microsoft’s numbers tend to represent a specific scenario.

    Honestly, the Surface pen’s claimed latency is impressive because it is 1.5 frames of lag. Apple’s claimed 20 ms is 2.5 frames of lag. I’m curious how they measured, and if Apple’s predictive touch input was required to get that, or if that’s just using the real touch points alone.

    The comment that the Pencil can get down to a single frame sounds like it must be using predictive touch points to get there, and suggests Apple’s numbers are using just real touch input. Not all apps will use the predictive input, since it can be tricky to get it right when the real touch points come in later. And their latency will suffer as a result. But I’m a bit dubious of 1 frame of lag myself because Apple had a WWDC talk last year where they suggested it was possible to get to 2 frames of lag with predictive input. Getting down to 1 requires more than just a faster display.
     
  9. DaniJoy, Jul 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  10. Aluminum213 thread starter macrumors 68040

    Aluminum213

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    Mar 16, 2012
    #10
    The Apple Pencil got a version to upgrade 2 just by using the new iPads

    It would be interesting to see what Apple does with a real second generation Apple Pencil
     
  11. spiderman0616 macrumors 68030

    spiderman0616

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    #11
    I would be first in line for one. I love mine.
     
  12. Aluminum213 thread starter macrumors 68040

    Aluminum213

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    #12
    But what what do you want in a second-generation Apple Pencil?
     
  13. spiderman0616 macrumors 68030

    spiderman0616

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    #13
    I don't even know what I would add. I'm just saying that I love it so much as an accessory, I'd be on board for any improvements Apple makes. If they don't change it for awhile yet, I'm happy with that too--I use mine every single day.
     
  14. JeffyTheQuik macrumors 68020

    JeffyTheQuik

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    Charleston, SC and Everett, WA
    #14
    - Apple Pay
    - An eraser
    - Thinner
    - Lighter (no, really, a lighter in it.)
    - Multiple ink colors, like those pens from 1977, just slide and it clicks a different color
    - Space Grey
    - Jet Black
    - A sharpener
    - Ability to store drawings in it
    - Use with my :apple: Watch
    - Use with my iMac Pro 2017
    - Dynamic Function Keys
    - A manual. No, really, something that I can read to know the actual documented functions that it can do, not some pop-up that I can never find again after I dismiss it.

    OK, I've had enough frivolity for a day...
     
  15. subjonas macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 10, 2014
    #15
    - an on/off switch (I'm constantly out of battery because I keep my Pencil in my bag)
    - a programmable side button
    - a tip with more friction and a finer point, possibly various types of interchangeable tips
    - shorter, and thicker if need be. (Right now it has the dimensions of a pencil but weight of a metal pen, so the weight distribution feels off. It either needs to be a lot lighter, or more compact in length.)
    - magnetic connection on the side to attach to the ipad smart connector in order to keep from wandering away and to charge while temporarily not in use. May also need a lightning-to-smart connector adapter for when the ipad is docked to smart keyboard in landscape.
     
  16. spiderman0616 macrumors 68030

    spiderman0616

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    #16
    I really like your drawing storage idea. That would be super cool.
     
  17. dulaney22 macrumors regular

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  18. Aluminum213 thread starter macrumors 68040

    Aluminum213

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    #18
    In What way?
     
  19. Hastings101 macrumors 68010

    Hastings101

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    #19
    That title seriously confused me, I thought this would be about you buying an Apple pencil because they were promoting it via ads lol. Anyway, it does look like it makes a big difference in videos for the pencil, I don't have one yet to test it out though.
     
  20. subjonas macrumors 6502a

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    #20
    I think jeffy was joking on at least a few of those. I think "sharpener" gave it away.
     
  21. JeffyTheQuik macrumors 68020

    JeffyTheQuik

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    #21
    Shorthand notes...
    --- Post Merged, Jul 14, 2017 ---
    I thought the "enough frivolity" was the give away... :)
     
  22. spiderman0616 macrumors 68030

    spiderman0616

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    #22
    I figured you were joking on at least half of those, but I still think being able to store drawings in the Pencil for safe keeping would be super cool. Not sure how practical or necessary it would be, but still.....
     
  23. rowspaxe macrumors 68000

    rowspaxe

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    Jan 29, 2010
    #23
    I doubt it. Does Promotion make your videos playback twice as fast? Promotion should not effect latency--it should just make the action of the ink following the pen appear "smoother". Similarly, promotion does not make ios animations play faster, but makes them appear smoother.
     
  24. spiderman0616 macrumors 68030

    spiderman0616

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    Aug 1, 2010
    #24
    It refreshes at 120 hz when needed. It can adjust for when it needs to be that fast and when it doesn't. It has cut the Pencil's latency from 40 ms to 20 ms, and you can see slow motion videos that show this in action. It does not play movies back at that speed by design, because that's not a good effect for videos.

    I have a feeling you're trolling, but even if you aren't, you clearly didn't watch the portion of the keynote where they explained what ProMotion is/does. Because everything you're saying it doesn't do, they clearly demonstrated the opposite.
     
  25. Krevnik, Jul 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017

    Krevnik macrumors 68040

    Krevnik

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    Sep 8, 2003
    #25
    You are right about videos and animations, but keep in mind why the animations are smoother. You are updating the screen twice as often. Meaning that instead of waiting up to 16ms to refresh the screen, you only wait up to 8ms to refresh the screen. That’s 8ms you aren’t waiting between getting the pencil input on the app, and the stroke reaching the eyes of the user. Processing half the touch points (2 instead of 4) means you do less work each frame as well, cutting latency further (less likely to miss a refresh and have to wait another frame).

    This faster refresh does cut down on all touch input latency as well. Things you drag feel less like they are following your finger. It is subtle, but noticeable.

    And as @spiderman0616 points out, this reduced latency is captureable on camera. The effect is real, and documented.
     

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