ATI 7000/9200 for my PM8600? (Flashing the 9200)

[tevion5]

I would like to upgrade the graphics capabilities of my 8600/250. I would like to also max out the RAM one day and perhaps even upgrade the processor...but I feel graphics is currently the biggest drawback in playing old games.

I know the Radoen 9200 is the best PCI card possible, but they are rare enough and expensive. A step down brings me to the Radeon 7000. They seem common enough and family affordable. How much of a boost could I expect compared to the lowly built in 4MB of video ram I currently have?

I have found a few Radeon 7000's, but the cheapest ones seem to be pulled from Xserve's. Would these ones be compatible?

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Radeon-Xserv...388?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d2eb29d3c

 

[bunnspecial]

Even a lowly Rage 128 is a big step above the built in graphics in this system. All of my PCI-based OWR Macs have one of these at a minimum, if nothing else for a VGA port but also because it really improves their graphics performance a lot.

I have a card identical to the one to which you linked in my Yikes! G4, although I did briefly have it in my 8600(before I installed a 9200 in preparation for installing Leopard). It's a great card, and a decent step up from the Rage 128.

 

[eyoungren]

The 7000s have 64mb of ram. I have a flashed 7000 in my Quicksilver. Been one of my most dependable cards.

So, that might also be an option for you as well…flashing a PC 7000 to Mac.

I didn't do the flashing on mine, it came that way so I don't know the process. But, again, it's been a very good card.

 

[tevion5]

Even a lowly Rage 128 is a big step above the built in graphics in this system. All of my PCI-based OWR Macs have one of these at a minimum, if nothing else for a VGA port but also because it really improves their graphics performance a lot.

I have a card identical to the one to which you linked in my Yikes! G4, although I did briefly have it in my 8600(before I installed a 9200 in preparation for installing Leopard). It's a great card, and a decent step up from the Rage 128.

Thats great news, I will set about acquiring one of these 7000's soon!

Funny thing is, I originally used my 8600 with an old Siemens VGA monitor I had lying about. But last year I was lucky enough for one of my professors to be throwing out an Apple MultipleScan 15" along with the hard to find DB-15 wide to DB-15 short cable. After being lucky enough to have it all using original hardware together, I feel it would be sort of a shame in a way to use a PCI card with a regular VGA cable instead

Sure I can just connect the Radeon 7000 to the MultipleScan 15"...they'll never know

 

[bunnspecial]

The 7000s have 64mb of ram. I have a flashed 7000 in my Quicksilver. Been one of my most dependable cards.

So, that might also be an option for you as well…flashing a PC 7000 to Mac.

I didn't do the flashing on mine, it came that way so I don't know the process. But, again, it's been a very good card.

I think the Mac edition cards only have 32mb-or at least that's what all the ones I've seen have.

In any case, ATI cards are super easy to flash(IMO, easier than nVidia) and can even be done in a Mac. If you're running 10.4 or later, you'll need to boot into safe mode, but otherwise the flashing process is quick and easy.

 

[tevion5]

I think the Mac edition cards only have 32mb-or at least that's what all the ones I've seen have.

In any case, ATI cards are super easy to flash(IMO, easier than nVidia) and can even be done in a Mac. If you're running 10.4 or later, you'll need to boot into safe mode, but otherwise the flashing process is quick and easy.

Oh well if flashing is really easy...would flashing a 9200 be any more difficult?

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/New-ATI-Rade...4?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_205&hash=item3f4b802de4

Damn, 128MB Video RAM! Nearly as much as the system itself! I don't care about bottlenecking for now, I just want the best value for money.

If I hypothetically added a Radeon 9200 and maxed out to 1GB RAM on my 8600/250, do you think the processor bottleneck be insane, or would it still be worthwhile without a CPU upgrade?

I've grown to love my 8600 so much. It's ironically the old mac I use the most. I got it to be a bridge between my PWR and NWR Mac's. Reading 800k floppies, using ethernet and LocalTalk. But then I ended up hosting my FTP server on it, Classilla, Fallout 1&2, Railroad Tycoon 2. I've written applescripts for it to automate my servers. It's just my go to machine. It's the one on my desk, while all others are on shelves (although all my computers are kept in ready to use form). The side-car design is really unique. It doesn't look like a Mac, but it is.

 

[eyoungren]

I think the Mac edition cards only have 32mb-or at least that's what all the ones I've seen have.

In any case, ATI cards are super easy to flash(IMO, easier than nVidia) and can even be done in a Mac. If you're running 10.4 or later, you'll need to boot into safe mode, but otherwise the flashing process is quick and easy.

Well, maybe it's a different card then. But when I got it, it had a sticky note attached to it that said "Flashed Radeon 7000".

System Profiler reports 64mb ram.

 

[Intell]

I have one in my 8600. It works very well. With a bit of work, you can enable QuartzExtreme in Tiger and it greatly helps. Pity there's no way to get CoreImage into a 8600. That'd really help when running Leopard.

 

[bunnspecial]

Oh well if flashing is really easy...would flashing a 9200 be any more difficult?

I would say not.

You need to download the ROM from the flash Wiki. There's also a flashing program-whose name escapes me at the moment-that will run in OS X. I've always used 10.4.11 booted into safe mode to flash. You just insert the card, power up the system, then launch the flashing application. It has to be done in a couple of steps, and I think the package has a how-to guide. You then specify the card you want to flash, select the ROM, and click "flash." You will see a progress bar, and it will then(hopefully) report a successful flash.

You need to have a second graphics card installed so you can see what you're doing-I'd suggest an nVidia so that you can avoid accidentally flashing the wrong card. Also, be sure you dump the old ROM from the card so that you can revert if something goes wrong.

----------

Oh well if flashing is really easy...would flashing a 9200 be any more difficult?

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/New-ATI-Rade...4?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_205&hash=item3f4b802de4

Damn, 128MB Video RAM! Nearly as much as the system itself! I don't care about bottlenecking for now, I just want the best value for money.

If I hypothetically added a Radeon 9200 and maxed out to 1GB RAM on my 8600/250, do you think the processor bottleneck be insane, or would it still be worthwhile without a CPU upgrade?

604Es are great processors, although the highest you can go with them is 10.2.8.

I guess it depends on what you want to do...as I set out upgrading my 8600 with the intention of installing Leopard, I had to install a G4 upgrade.

Personally, I'd choose a 604E over a similarly clocked G3 if I were going to run OS 9. A fast G3 would probably make a noticeable difference. If you're going to upgrade the processor, I'd look for a G4.

 

[Gamer9430]

Radeon 7000 for my PM8600?

I would say not.



You need to download the ROM from the flash Wiki. There's also a flashing program-whose name escapes me at the moment-that will run in OS X. I've always used 10.4.11 booted into safe mode to flash. You just insert the card, power up the system, then launch the flashing application. It has to be done in a couple of steps, and I think the package has a how-to guide. You then specify the card you want to flash, select the ROM, and click "flash." You will see a progress bar, and it will then(hopefully) report a successful flash.



You need to have a second graphics card installed so you can see what you're doing-I'd suggest an nVidia so that you can avoid accidentally flashing the wrong card. Also, be sure you dump the old ROM from the card so that you can revert if something goes wrong.

----------





604Es are great processors, although the highest you can go with them is 10.2.8.



I guess it depends on what you want to do...as I set out upgrading my 8600 with the intention of installing Leopard, I had to install a G4 upgrade.



Personally, I'd choose a 604E over a similarly clocked G3 if I were going to run OS 9. A fast G3 would probably make a noticeable difference. If you're going to upgrade the processor, I'd look for a G4.

Speaking of maxing out that 8600, how is it going?

 

[tevion5]

604Es are great processors, although the highest you can go with them is 10.2.8.

I guess it depends on what you want to do...as I set out upgrading my 8600 with the intention of installing Leopard, I had to install a G4 upgrade.

Personally, I'd choose a 604E over a similarly clocked G3 if I were going to run OS 9. A fast G3 would probably make a noticeable difference. If you're going to upgrade the processor, I'd look for a G4.

I did some reading and happened upon this very interesting thread:
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/8072-604e-versus-the-g3/

There seems to be much love for the 604e alright, and one claim that if a G3 and 604E of identical clock speed would be allowed to have identical Cache, then the 604E would actually outperform it in all respects. I think the 604ev Mach5 in my 8600/250 is also a noticeable step up from the entry level 8600/200 with a standard 604e. The 604ev Mach5 supports a 100MHz memory bus, as opposed to the 604e that only support 66MHz.

My 333MHz Tray Loader iMac G3 does not feel much faster than my 8600 in OS9 and it runs Panther very well, even with a paltry 160MB of RAM.

I don't see myself ever running OSX on my 8600, only maybe briefly out of curiosity. It's sort of my go to Mac OS 9 system. It feels better using Mac OS 9 on it than my Quicksilver or iMac G4, even though they are obviously more powerful.

This makes me feel that maxing out RAM and Graphics capabilities are definitely worthwhile with the stock CPU.

 

[bunnspecial]

I did some reading and good up this very interesting thread:
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/8072-604e-versus-the-g3/

There seems to be much love for the 604e alright, and one claim that if a G3 and 604E of identical clock speed would be allowed to have identical Cache, then the 604E would actually outperform it in all respects. I think the 604ev Mach5 in my 8600/250 is also a noticeable step up from the entry level 8600/200 with a standard 604e. The 604ev Mach5 supports a 100MHz memory bus, as opposed to the 604e that only support 66MHz.

My 333MHz Tray Loader iMac G3 does not feel much faster than my 8600 in OS9 and it runs Panther very well, even with a paltry 160MB of RAM.

I don't see myself ever running OSX on my 8600, only maybe briefly out of curiosity. It's sort of my go to Mac OS 9 system. It feels better using Mac OS 9 on it than my Quicksilver or iMac G4, even though they are obviously more powerful.

This makes me feel that maxing out RAM and Graphics capabilities are definitely worthwhile with the stock CPU.

One of the "problems" with the G3 is that it's heavily based on the 603E, which was the "low end" processor that was made along side the 604E.

My 8600 in stock form had a 200mhz. My 9600 is a 200MP, which is neat but there are very few apps that take advantage of it.

Some people seem to think that Apple discontinued the higher spec 8600 and 9600 systems when they came out with the G3 because they were afraid that the 604E would outperform them.

 

[tevion5]

My 9600 is a 200MP, which is neat but there are very few apps that take advantage of it.

Can Mac OS 9.2.2?

 

[bunnspecial]

Speaking of maxing out that 8600, how is it going?

Thanks to my thesis, I've not had time to do much else with it.

If my advisor signs it tomorrow(I really hope he will) I should have a lot more free time to work on it. In any case, he has to sign it by Wednesday, so I should be relatively free after that to work on some of this stuff(at least until I have to start prepping for summer classes toward the end of May-I'll have a fair bit to do with that).

 

[tevion5]

Thanks to my thesis, I've not had time to do much else with it.

If my advisor signs it tomorrow(I really hope he will) I should have a lot more free time to work on it. In any case, he has to sign it by Wednesday, so I should be relatively free after that to work on some of this stuff(at least until I have to start prepping for summer classes toward the end of May-I'll have a fair bit to do with that).

I can partially sympathise. I have my first year Computer Science finals starting next week. I probably shouldn't even be on MacRumors...

 

[bunnspecial]

Can Mac OS 9.2.2?

I don't think 9.2.2 will...

 

[tevion5]

I don't think 9.2.2 will...

Oh well, just curiosity. I think the lack of Mac OS 7-9 support for multiple processors influenced IBM to focus more strongly on the G3/advanced 603. The G4 would bring back the talents of the 604e. My 8600/250 is SP so it's irrelevant to me nonetheless.

 

[MagicBoy]

Can Mac OS 9.2.2?

OS 9 makes the second processor available to MP aware apps so that they can utilise additional processes where it would be beneficial. The OS itself was designed for a single processor so the Finder etc use the primary CPU only.

Off the top of my head there were limited apps that supported MP and they were all content creation - FCP, Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects etc.

 

[bunnspecial]

Oh well, just curiosity. I think the lack of Mac OS 7-9 support for multiple processors influenced IBM to focus more strongly on the G3/advanced 603. The G4 would bring back the talents of the 604e. My 8600/250 is SP so it's irrelevant to me nonetheless.

Right-as I understand it the G4 is to the G3 what the 604E is to the 603.

I've been meaning to run some benchmarks on my 8600 vs. my 9600, although now that I've installed the G4 it's irrelevant. I was using Mathematic to calculate Pi to 1000 decimal places. Of course, the version of Mathematica I'm using can't use Altivec, so a G4 wont' help it any but the fact that my G4 is 700mhz would help it tremendously. I don't know if Mathematica can use both processors.

I can still run the benchmark on my 7350, which I think is also 200mhz.

I also could do something in Photoshop 6, which I'm pretty sure can use both processors.

 

[bunnspecial]

I have one in my 8600. It works very well. With a bit of work, you can enable QuartzExtreme in Tiger and it greatly helps. Pity there's no way to get CoreImage into a 8600. That'd really help when running Leopard.

It's too bad that the FX5200 won't work in OWR Macs. It makes a huge difference in a B&W in Tiger, and I'm sure will help even more when I finally get Leopard working on it.

I should grab a couple more of those. I think I paid about $25 for the 256mb version. I wouldn't mind to have one make a permanent home in my Xserve, since some software I'd like to run on it won't run without a CI card in the machine(even though I'm running it headless through VNC).

 

[tevion5]

I have one in my 8600. It works very well. With a bit of work, you can enable QuartzExtreme in Tiger and it greatly helps. Pity there's no way to get CoreImage into a 8600. That'd really help when running Leopard.

Hey Intell, you know everything! Would you say this card would have no problem being flashed with the 9200 Mac rom? I don't see why it wouldn't. If you give it the all clear I'll buy it right now.

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/271849631204?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I've been reading the Wiki and flashing these things looks straightforward and even fun. Their enormous repository of ROM's is divine.

I have an old Dell Dimension 8200 with an nVidia 7600GS sitting around so that can be the machine to do the flashing. No confusing the ATI card with the nVidia. Somebody mentioned flashing with a Mac, and my Quicksilver would be perfect with it's GeForce 4MX, but I can't find any resources on flashing from a Mac.

P.S. Don't die.

 

[bunnspecial]

I have an old Dell Dimension 8200 with an nVidia 7600GS sitting around so that can be the machine to do the flashing. No confusing the ATI card with the nVidia. Somebody mentioned flashing with a Mac, and my Quicksilver would be perfect with it's GeForce 4MX, but I can't find any resources on flashing from a Mac.

P.S. Don't die.

I think the program is called Graphicellerator, but am not positive. It's on my DA G4 that I use for a lot of experimental stuff, and where I've flashed more than one card. If I can find the right flash drive, I can double check as I'm pretty sure I have a copy stored there also.

I can upload it to dropbox for you if you can't find it.

EDIT:

Here it is
http://thomas.perrier.name/graphiccelerator.html

 

[tevion5]

I think the program is called Graphicellerator, but am not positive. It's on my DA G4 that I use for a lot of experimental stuff, and where I've flashed more than one card. If I can find the right flash drive, I can double check as I'm pretty sure I have a copy stored there also.

I can upload it to dropbox for you if you can't find it.

EDIT:

Here it is
http://thomas.perrier.name/graphiccelerator.html

Thanks! Actually I already found this in my pursuits. It says it does 2 things, neither of which are flashing, that's what put me off. But if you've used it for flashing and had success, then I'll give this a go first

Ahh I see "Then use the utilities on the disk image to flash the modified ROMs on cards." below the two things just now.

 

[Intell]

Card flashing isn't my strong point. That card may work.

 

[tevion5]

Card flashing isn't my strong point. That card may work.

I found something that isn't your strong point? Where do I collect my prize?