Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
ATI 7000/9200 for my PM8600? (Flashing the 9200)
- Thread starter tevion5
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I feel confidant that that card will flash, and that flashing should be straightforward. But now I have one last gripe.
These are the requirements for the Radeon 9200:
Power Macintosh G3 and up - Will my 604ev be okay?
Mac OS 9.2.2 - Check!
256MB of System Memory (RAM) - I only have 136MB for now, but this can be upgraded soon.
CD-ROM Drive for CD-based installation (DVD-ROM drive required for DVD playback) - Check!
QuickTime 6.x - Check!
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#CR
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#9200
So am I going to have to get a G3/G4 upgrade to run the 9200 at all in my 8600/250? Or are the requirements being overzealous? Will I have to stick with a 7000?
Note: LowEndMac says "all PCI macs" can use it. Hmmm...
http://lowendmac.com/video/pci/radeon-9200.html
I think the difference between PowerPC 603 and 604 was more than between G3 and G4.
G4 was just G3 + Altivec, and both were derived from 603.
http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~moshovos/ACA07/lecturenotes/ppcg4%20(mpr).pdf
"The G4 starts with the same integer core as the G3 (see MPR 2/17/97, p. 10), which in turn is not that much different from the original PowerPC 603"
A G4 would have the same performance as a G3 with the same megahertz in tasks that don't use Altivec.
Macworld did an interesting test between G3 and G4: http://www.macworld.com/article/1002348/mhzmatter.html
"We explored the differences between the G3 and G4 by pitting a 450MHz blue-and-white Power Mac G3 system against itself--with a 450MHz G4 upgrade card inside."
"The two configurations were neck-and-neck in most Finder and Office tests; however, the G4 chip came through on features designed to take advantage of AltiVec."
Now let's skip to test results of non-AltiVec tasks (time in seconds):
Gaussian Blur : 32 vs 31
Resize: 18 vs 17
RGB to CMYK: 36 vs 37
Rotate Canvas: 36 vs 36
In summary, what Scott L. Barber had speculated, in http://lowendmac.com/tech/g3g4.shtml, was turned out false.
Last edited:
Looking at that card it will probably flash as long as you follow the 9200 guide on themacelite but I think only 64MB of VRAM will show up instead of the full 128MB (if you want for the full 128MB look for a card with 8 ram chips aka 4 on one side 4 on the other)
Oh right, would this one be better?
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Visiontek-AT...950?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item566f738c26
This is not going to be a very good answer, but I can tell you that the card you linked looks very similar to the Mac edition card.
----------
I feel confidant that that card will flash, and that flashing should be straightforward. But now I have one last gripe.
These are the requirements for the Radeon 9200:
Power Macintosh G3 and up - Will my 604ev be okay?
Mac OS 9.2.2 - Check!
256MB of System Memory (RAM) - I only have 136MB for now, but this can be upgraded soon.
CD-ROM Drive for CD-based installation (DVD-ROM drive required for DVD playback) - Check!
QuickTime 6.x - Check!
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#CR
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#9200
So am I going to have to get a G3/G4 upgrade to run the 9200 at all in my 8600/250? Or are the requirements being overzealous? Will I have to stick with a 7000?
Note: LowEndMac says "all PCI macs" can use it. Hmmm...
http://lowendmac.com/video/pci/radeon-9200.html
Stand by-I'll check this evening in a pre-G3 Mac.
again it looks like its a 4 Ram chip card so only 64MB will show up... how ever it is closer to the Mac card so it has a higher chance of flashing properly
Thanks man, that's great to know!
----------
Are those memory IC's doubled on back and front then? Because I only count 2.
I'm guessing this one fits the bill? 4x2:
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/VISIONTEK-RA...379?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43bda99ccb
Last edited:
Thanks man, that's great to know!
You'd also probably be interested to know that I've had that 7350 sitting in that exact place since March 17th(when I drove up into southern Indiana to buy it and a couple of other computers), and hadn't even powered it up.
I figured this was the best way to test the 9200, since my 8600 no longer has a 604E, my 8500 is too much of pain to take apart, and my 9600 is away at my parents' house.
So, it gave me a chance to answer your question and boot up a computer that I've been meaning to boot for a month and a half now. BTW, the 8600 has an interesting startup chime. It sounds like my Quadra 700.
Now I just need to get along with my Leopard on the 8600 project...
yeah the IC match back to front... and in the case of that card its only a 64MB VRAM card and it only has 4 Ram chips 2 on each side altho being a 4 ram chip 64MB card if ur happy with 64MB then that one would have the best chance of flashing out of all the ones you have linked...
Yes as a producer I took note of this myself. I believe it's actually the standard mac chime used on modern mac's since 1998, but a semi tone or two higher. The modern one is the same sound byte compressed and modulated down a little. It's more obvious when you play them side by side. The MacTracker app is great for lots of things, but its huge collection of Apple startup chimes is especially cool.
As an aside, if you're running 9.2.1 or 9.2.2, be sure you install the ATI drivers before installing a Radeon 9200. This has caught me more than once on Radeon 9000 series cards-the computer will lock up before it renders the desktop. The problem doesn't exist in OS 9.1 and earlier.
In addition, the driver disk I have will only work in 9.2.2
In addition, the driver disk I have will only work in 9.2.2
This is a seemingly unopened Radeon 9250 PCI. There appears to be a modified 9250 driver on the MacElite. Would you say this would be too risky or as liely as the 9200?
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Connect-3D-R...758?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2ee10fb1be
I really appreciate all this advice.
I THINK the 9250 can be flashed (I do remember there being a Modified ROM and drivers for it) for £4 its not going to dent the bank if it doesn't flash
Some gerneral thoughts on topics that came up here:
For differentiating the ATI 7000 versions I take this for reference
http://www.welovemacs.com/pcivideocards.html#top
There is a Mac edition with 32MB and 64MB and flashed ones. Look at the pictures to look for evidences what card is what, when you purchase on EBay.
Also, if you flash a 7000 there should be a ROM for the 32MB and the 64MB version over at themacelite's wiki and ROM database.
------
9200 and the like:
I have a flashed and a Mac one and can confirm what I read about all ATI 9... (including the 9800) when flashed:
- HW acceleration doesn't work in OS 9 (don't know about OS 7-8), OS X seems to be no problem. One likely will observe this, when playing games. EVen the onboard prepatched games that came with Macs will show a wanring "please activate OpenGL or be sure you have a video card that supports hardware aceleration". This is in Bugdom and Cro-Mag-Ralley.
- OS 9 prior to 9.2.2 will hang at the desktop for few seconds, but can be used normally afterwards.
- an ATI 9000/9200 driver and something like that has to be installed (not on the card, but into OS 9), if you have no OS 9.2.2 (Mind first leave the old card in and install the 9000/9200 driver, shut down, then put in 9200 and restart. I made a guide over at mac-os-9-lives. I don't remember everything right now.
- the HW accleration problem can be solved on the ATI 9000 by moving some capacitors/resistors as shown at themacelite I never heard, if that helps for the other cards of the same family (7000/9000 and 9200 and two others I forgot share the same RV... revision chip and are almost equal).
- I wonder, if the problems known of the flashed 9000/9200 don't occur with the 7000, since it is similar.
- all I said applies to OS 9 use on a G3/G4. I don't know how they behave under OS 7/8 on a 604.
-----
Forgot the rest I wanted to say... damn.
For differentiating the ATI 7000 versions I take this for reference
http://www.welovemacs.com/pcivideocards.html#top
There is a Mac edition with 32MB and 64MB and flashed ones. Look at the pictures to look for evidences what card is what, when you purchase on EBay.
Also, if you flash a 7000 there should be a ROM for the 32MB and the 64MB version over at themacelite's wiki and ROM database.
------
9200 and the like:
I have a flashed and a Mac one and can confirm what I read about all ATI 9... (including the 9800) when flashed:
- HW acceleration doesn't work in OS 9 (don't know about OS 7-8), OS X seems to be no problem. One likely will observe this, when playing games. EVen the onboard prepatched games that came with Macs will show a wanring "please activate OpenGL or be sure you have a video card that supports hardware aceleration". This is in Bugdom and Cro-Mag-Ralley.
- OS 9 prior to 9.2.2 will hang at the desktop for few seconds, but can be used normally afterwards.
- an ATI 9000/9200 driver and something like that has to be installed (not on the card, but into OS 9), if you have no OS 9.2.2 (Mind first leave the old card in and install the 9000/9200 driver, shut down, then put in 9200 and restart. I made a guide over at mac-os-9-lives. I don't remember everything right now.
- the HW accleration problem can be solved on the ATI 9000 by moving some capacitors/resistors as shown at themacelite I never heard, if that helps for the other cards of the same family (7000/9000 and 9200 and two others I forgot share the same RV... revision chip and are almost equal).
- I wonder, if the problems known of the flashed 9000/9200 don't occur with the 7000, since it is similar.
- all I said applies to OS 9 use on a G3/G4. I don't know how they behave under OS 7/8 on a 604.
-----
Forgot the rest I wanted to say... damn.
So you mean I would see no benefit in gaming 2D/3D performance with a 9200 under Mac OS 9.2.2? Is this true for the 7000 also?
I plan for this system to run games fairly comfortably in Mac OS 9.2.2. If a 9200 is no good for this it is pointless for me. Should I go for the weaker 7000 then?
FYI: I am currently bidding on a 9250 for less than 5 euro.
What is gaming performance like with the 9200 under Mac OS 9.2.2.? Is it working and noticeably faster?
So you mean I would see no benefit in gaming 2D/3D performance with a 9200 under Mac OS 9.2.2? Is this true for the 7000 also?
I plan for this system to run games fairly comfortably in Mac OS 9.2.2. If a 9200 is no good for this it is pointless for me. Should I go for the weaker 7000 then?
FYI: I am currently bidding on a 9250 for less than 5 euro.
What is gaming performance like with the 9200 under Mac OS 9.2.2.? Is it working and noticeably faster?
My 9600 is currently the only 604E equipped computer I have that's running 9.2.2, and it has a Rage 128 in it at the moment. I'll put CivII or something else on it(maybe tonight) and report back.
One of these days-hopefully soon-I'm going to do some more work on my project 8600, and one step along the way will be installing 9.2.2. I haven't had the time the past few weeks, and am going out of town next week so the project is going to have to wait.
That would be great if you could get some feedback on a game running.
9.2.2 works flawlessly on my stock 8600 so you should have no issues there.
That would be great if you could get some feedback on a game running.
9.2.2 works flawlessly on my stock 8600 so you should have no issues there.
9.2.2 really was an improvement on my 9600.
I actually need to reinstall OS 9 on my 8600-or at least Sonnet says that I need to do this in order to enable Altivec support. Once I've done that, I'll go through and upgrade it to 9.2.2 before tackling OS X. OS X, of course, is where the real fun begins
. I'll need to use Xpostfacto to install 10.4, then put the drive in another computer to install 10.5, update it to 10.5.8, manually install a bunch of kexts, and manually set the permissions on them.If it is an original 9250 (not flashed) take it!!! It will work!So you mean I would see no benefit in gaming 2D/3D performance with a 9200 under Mac OS 9.2.2? Is this true for the 7000 also?
I plan for this system to run games fairly comfortably in Mac OS 9.2.2. If a 9200 is no good for this it is pointless for me. Should I go for the weaker 7000 then?
FYI: I am currently bidding on a 9250 for less than 5 euro.
What is gaming performance like with the 9200 under Mac OS 9.2.2.? Is it working and noticeably faster?
If it is a flashed one, it will not work with 3D heavy stuff (e.g. Bugdom nags but will be fine, Cro-Mag Ralley will be like a stop motion picture show, even when you are just navigating through the menu.
These games ran flawless with a Rage 128!
But!!! If it is under 10USD, try it, why not. Maybe even 15,-USD, it is a nice card and you will maybe see benefits in other regions. If it is not what you expected, sell it again. Maybe you can sell it as "buy it now" via Ebay without fees, I don't know about how US-Ebay works, or leave it in the shelf and put it on craigslist and wait. I'd resell it for 20,- though some people would give you 30 for it, given how rare it is.
Btw. my Mac 9200 didn't work without the gonar.mactar drivers for ATI 9000/9200. I first had to put my Rage 128 back, install the drivers and then put the 9200 back. On OS 9 lives forums there is a prepatched 9.2.2 with all needed drivers.
It is one designed of PC's that has not yet been flashed. A ROM exists for the 9250 on MacElite. Do you mean to it will or will not work well in 3D in this case? I am currently bidding on it for very little and see no others bidders for now.
I have installed the regular ATI 9200 drivers on my 8600 in preparation for a new card. Is this all you mean, or are there other specific/odd drivers I must acquire?
Thanks
I went through my drafts for a future guide I wanted to write.
You need (before putting in the new ATI card):
For ATI 7000/8500/9000/9200
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ATI_Radeon_Retail_Installer/ati-retail-9-2-2-jan2005.hqx (last update from January 2005, final version as far as known).
In OS 9 System extensions folder the readily installed driver will then appear with the name "8500 3D Accelerator" (last version is 7.1.0). (Edit: if you use the complete OS 9.2.2 install with all drivers included found on os9livesforums the .iso has one extensions folder with 7.0.7 (in the included .img file) and one with 7.1.0. in the .iso).
Additionally (after putting in the new ATI card):
There is a ROM by ATI for the card (it is not the ROM you need to make the PC card a Mac card in the first place. It is an additional ROM adding functionality for cards, that already have the MAC ROM, but it alters the card itself once more. It will be installed on the card itself.)
http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#9200rom
(Mind ATI issued a ROM update for the ATI 7000, too. This is another Update:
search for "7000 ROM update" here http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/ )
That should do. I have uploaded one of my drafts for you, be cautious, but if you like, you can read through it. But I'd say you have everything you need now. It includes 1 english and 2 german/english mixed ones. I added the german one, mainly so you can search for additional links, but I don't know, if it is worth for anything.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rrvpdr1yscmdguz/AABm_2ApR3DMzfyDLAxznTMoa?dl=0
MODS: NO SOFTWARE INCLUDED in the above link!!!
the gona mactar links only refer to free drivers offered by ATI.
RE: 9250. If it is a PC-card, that you will have to flash, then these go cheap anyway. I don't have prices for Ebay US, but you should be able to get it for low costs. If you don't have to count pennies, go for it and try. After flashed ,it will, though not add full 3D functions, as far as I know.
Last edited: