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It's pretty easy to figure out from what Android was. Andy Rubin created Android after just jumping ship from Danger Inc (the creators of the T-Mobile Sidekick)

Both Android and Danger's Hiptop (Sidekick) are based on Java frameworks plus a Unix kernel.

As far as how it looked we all have seen the prototype photo.

Interestingly even the Magic Cap project - the Apple spin-off where Rubin worked before eventually moving to Danger - was already using downloadable "app" packages developed in a something very similar to Java.

So the concepts haven't really diverged that much since 1992.

So no, you don't have any inside info and you're only guessing

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What some of you are forgetting is that before iPhone was announced to the public, Google had a mole inside Apple in Eric Schmidt, who had seen prototypes and design philosophy from years of prior Apple research (obviously they didn't just start working on the iPhone a month before it was released). Thus, Google would have had time to start working on things which later appeared in the iPhone, but that does not mean they didn't get the ideas from Apple. That's why Jobs had a nuclear meltdown over it, he knew what Schmidt had seen and felt he'd been knifed in the back by a friend.

What you are forgetting is that Google bought Android in 2.005.

Perhaps you think Jobs, Cook and all the people at Apple were so stupid to just don't know that and ask Schmidt to go to the board
 
Perhaps you think Jobs, Cook and all the people at Apple were so stupid to just don't know that and ask Schmidt to go to the board

Are you suggesting they knew of Google's plans? Google bought a lot of companies in 2005.

Apple needed Google's services for the iPhone, so hiring Schmidt may have been precisely to build a stronger union between the two companies, so they could share the necessary confidential information. Not sure they expected Schmidt to be Google's Trojan horse.

Why would they? Apple's iPhone browser (plus others) would easily keep Google's core advertising business booming without having to make their own phone.

To this day Google's whole Android business plan still doesn't make sense to me, unless it's some tool to push products like Google+. If they really only make money from showing mobile users ads, why do they need to run and fund a whole mobile ecosystem for that?
 
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Are you suggesting they knew of Google's plans? Google bought a lot of companies in 2005.

Absolutely they knew. Everyone in the business (and a lot of people outside it) knew Google bought Android and they were working on a phone.

Apple needed Google's services for the iPhone, so hiring Schmidt may have been precisely to build a stronger union between the two companies, so they could share the necessary confidential information.

You're right, Apple needed Google. Imagine the first iPhone without Google Search, Maps, YouTube and Google locating services to make up for its lack of GPS.

Not sure they expected Schmidt to be Google's Trojan horse.

Apple has never accused Schmidt of stealing info while he was on their board, before the iPhone came out. Never. Jobs accused Google of copying after the iPhone was presented to the world.

To this day Google's whole Android business plan still doesn't make sense to me, unless it's some tool to push products like Google+. If they really only make money from showing mobile users ads, why do they need to run and fund a whole mobile ecosystem for that?

At the time they bought Android, it seemed likely that Google could be shut out of a lot of devices, with Microsoft offering Bing and deals. That alone is enough reason.
 
So I make a copycat product and start selling it in Australia around October and when Apple sues my company, I would want the judge to appeal that it will hurt my business as well as business of retailers in Australia.

Please allow me to infringe on IP and make copy cat products. Please.

Just a reminder that Apple did not invent tablet PCs and that Samsung's tab has no Apple logo on them.

Simple reason is that it was only a question of time that otherOS tabs get more mature and will cut into the iPads market share. The better the competition will get the better the iPad3 will be. Hopefully.

But then, iPhone 4S was a disappointing product with no new features and a lack of connectivity (LTE is getting rolled out in many countries).
 
To be honest this is totally stupid arguments.

Everyone steals from everyone and everything looks similar to competition products...it just fashion...Lets take HDDs for example they all have same function but they all look alike...so lets make case from that....Second example CARs they all have same thing incomone it just tweaking tuning and abit exterier look but in general functionality is same for every car from point A to point B....

Xerox was first one who invented PC in 1971 but they never place this invetion outside because of price....Steve took GUI idea from Xerox....Bill Gates steal idea from Steve and make windows...and like that all the way...If you make product that people want to buy...ofc competition will make similar product and do copycat because people want to buy that...and ofc you will put price down because that will draw attention and people will then start to think heyyy why to spend 2000usd if i can get similar product with similar functions for 1500usd....This lawsuit is just mascarade for money investors, and lets be honest Samsung is Korean brand and we all know that Korean people didn't invent ****...but they did steal almost everything posible from or Japan or Taiwan or China or USA.....Korean tend to have very aggresive aproach to market(price and marketing) and thats the reason why Samsung is becoming more and more popular all around...but if you look behind the scene they will go down sooner or later....Australia is just one place in Japan there is as well big lawsute vs Samsung in Taiwan as well...

Each lawsute is connected with different product.
 
Absolutely they knew. Everyone in the business (and a lot of people outside it) knew Google bought Android and they were working on a phone.

Well, sorry but that "absolutely" sounds like it's you just guessing.

Google could have easily told Apple they were dropping their own plans to build a mobile platform when they entered into an agreement over the iPhone.

Schmidt could then have been brought on board to sort of guarantee that (no-compete, also the official reason he left) but then somehow found a loophole in the agreement.

Google dropped many other projects (e.g. Dodgeball) from companies they purchased. Android wouldn't be the first. It was one of the cheapest too, at only an estimated $50 million. Don't think they would lose any sleep over that.

At the time they bought Android, it seemed likely that Google could be shut out of a lot of devices, with Microsoft offering Bing and deals. That alone is enough reason.

It may have been the original reason back in 2005, but why spend billions developing it further since then? I doubt Apple would ever partner with Microsoft on something as crucial as mobile, and most users never wanted Bing anyway (witness the outcry when Opera moved to Bing - and quickly retreated)

Do let me know - even whacky conspiracy theories are welcome - as I struggle to understand Google's continued interest in this.
 
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...This lawsuit is just mascarade for money investors, and lets be honest Samsung is Korean brand and we all know that Korean people didn't invent ****...but they did steal almost everything posible from or Japan or Taiwan or China or USA.....
That's pretty arrogant to say. Since when does a company represent all the people of a country? Maybe you should throw away that iphone, if you own one, since it's contaminated by Samsing copied parts.
 
Re: Australian Injunction

There were just two Apple patents at question for the interlocutory injunction. (There had been three, but Apple withdrew their slide-to-unlock one after the Netherlands judge on the other side of the world said it was probably not a valid patent.)

One was about the construction of a capacitive touchscreen. The patent speaks of painting circuits on both sides of a sheet of material. Samsung says they didn't do that because they used two separate sheets. Apple tried to claim that they didn't necessarily mean both sides of the SAME sheet. The judge didn't think much of Apple's new interpretation, since the patent claims didn't mention that situation, but she was willing to defer for the time being.

The other patent is the one about deciding whether to lock scrolling to only vertical, or to allow 2D movements, depending on the starting flick angle. The judge questioned the same claim writing that I did when it came out, which was: does the patent cover a way of determining the angle or not?

Since the judge determined that no one could agree on what Apple's ambiguous patent claims meant, even experts that were brought in, she decided that the only choice was to continue to trial.

Re: Andy Rubin et al

When you've been in the business this long, you know that the reason the same ideas show up everywhere is partly because the same people keep popping up everywhere. Their talents are why they're hired by various companies, and naturally they bring their ideas with them.

Instead of admiring companies, device fans should be admiring the engineers that have built the basic ideas that everyone uses... whether they work for their favorite company right now or not.

Re: Xerox

Jobs didn't understand the Mac project and tried to kill it. He had to be dragged over to see the Xerox stuff. Once he did, he loved the idea of a GUI(even though he admits he didn't pay any attention to the just as amazing object oriented software or inter-networking).

However, Apple never paid Xerox anything directly. They gave Xerox the right to buy 100,000 shares of pre-IPO Apple stock, which Xerox later did... and then sold a couple of years later.

In return, Xerox gave Apple a license to make a single device, the Lisa. Apple later claimed that anything done after that belonged to them, not Xerox, which is what caused Xerox to sue them.

Thanks for saving me time!

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Are you suggesting they knew of Google's plans? Google bought a lot of companies in 2005.

Apple needed Google's services for the iPhone, so hiring Schmidt may have been precisely to build a stronger union between the two companies, so they could share the necessary confidential information. Not sure they expected Schmidt to be Google's Trojan horse.

Why would they? Apple's iPhone browser (plus others) would easily keep Google's core advertising business booming without having to make their own phone.

To this day Google's whole Android business plan still doesn't make sense to me, unless it's some tool to push products like Google+. If they really only make money from showing mobile users ads, why do they need to run and fund a whole mobile ecosystem for that?

Yes, we are suggesting that they knew Google were working on a phone OS. It was publicly known, and if Apple brought Schmidt on without checking up these very basic things, then, that only makes them more stupid than otherwise implied.

And yes, Apple needed Googles services.

But no, no one, not even Apple themselves, expected a success of the level they have enjoyed. Then again, had it not been for serendipitous events - many thanks to the jail breaking community - maybe it wouldn't have either.

Last, regarding Googles business plan. They want one thing, data. How do they get data? By a) having access to your device b) by getting you to use their software c) by getting you to use their services. Android ticks all three boxes.

Personalized information is the gold of the 21th century.
 
Well, sorry but that "absolutely" sounds like it's you just guessing.

My response was only to the bogus idea that Apple would somehow not know about Google buying Android.

Google could have easily told Apple they were dropping their own plans to build a mobile platform when they entered into an agreement over the iPhone

That's doubtful, although it seems clear that Jobs thought / hoped they would not build anything to compete directly with the iPhone.

Schmidt could then have been brought on board to sort of guarantee that (no-compete, also the official reason he left) but then somehow found a loophole in the agreement.

If he had, then Jobs would've had no problem publicly accusing Google of cheating him. Yet, the point is that Apple has never accused Schmidt of doing anything underhanded while on their board.

Only some bloggers and posters do that, and they're basically saying that Apple and Jobs were business idiots... and we all know that's not true. After all, they invited Schmidt, not the other around. It's infinitely more likely they wanted to get info from him, rather than to offer their secrets to Google.

As you noted, the main reason Schmidt left was because he had to exit any board meeting that had any conflict with what Google was doing. He's also stated that he stayed away from the Android project while on Apple's board. He's no dummy, he was not going set himself up for legal problems with someone (Jobs) that he admired.

Again, why manufacture tales to accuse Schmidt of something that Apple has never accused him of?

It may have been the original reason back in 2005, but why spend billions developing it further since then? I doubt Apple would ever partner with Microsoft on something as crucial as mobile, and most users never wanted Bing anyway (witness the outcry when Opera moved to Bing - and quickly retreated)

Oh, Apple licenses Microsoft items for mobile. A huge example is Exchange ActiveSync, without which the iPhone would've looked far less business friendly.

Apple holds Bing over Google's head. It's one of the few weapons they have against them. I seem to recall rumblings that Apple was going to switch to Bing after they and Google got in a tussle over Apple not approving Google Voice etc.
 
He's also stated that he stayed away from the Android project while on Apple's board.

Where have you seen this? I find it very hard to believe since he was both the CEO of Google and on the board at Apple until after Android's launch.

Google's own CEO didn't participate on the Android project until after it's release?

Oh, Apple licenses Microsoft items for mobile. A huge example is Exchange ActiveSync, without which the iPhone would've looked far less business friendly.

That's a very different kind of agreement from what Apple has with Google. I said "partners" not patent licensees.

Apple just licenses the ActiveSync protocol - like Microsoft's arch-rival Google also does - they don't actually use any of Microsoft's services.

Microsoft had no option but license that, as their antitrust settlement with the DOJ and European commission forced them to open up their protocols to rival companies.

Apple holds Bing over Google's head. It's one of the few weapons they have against them. I seem to recall rumblings that Apple was going to switch to Bing after they and Google got in a tussle over Apple not approving Google Voice etc.

Apple only held Bing over Google's head only with the iOS 4, released in June 2010. This was already after Schmidt had left and well into the smartphone "war".

Even then it wasn't a serious threat, as the default search engine was still well set to Google under a few good layers of menus.
 
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Microsoft had no option but license that, as their antitrust settlement with the DOJ and European commission forced them to open up their protocols to rival companies.

Source?




Apple only held Bing over Google's head only with the iOS 4, released in June 2010. This was already after Schmidt had left and well into the smartphone "war".

Even then it wasn't a serious threat, as the default search engine was still well set to Google under a few good layers of menus.

It was a serious threat, it reminded Google that they can't be at the expense of other companies. This is why Android is needed by Google
 
Last, regarding Googles business plan. They want one thing, data. How do they get data? By a) having access to your device b) by getting you to use their software c) by getting you to use their services. Android ticks all three boxes.

Personalized information is the gold of the 21th century.

Are you claiming in a) that Android spies on its users? How do they make money out of "personalised information"? Do they sell it?

Surely just making sure Google's services - like search and e-mail - are the best out there would be enough. It seems to have worked front the start (they beat Altavista and then Hotmail) - and they didn't need access to people's computers.
 

You can read the summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

"On 17 September 2007, Microsoft lost their appeal against the European Commission's case. The €497 million fine was upheld, as were the requirements regarding server interoperability information"

"In 2004, the Commission ordered us to create new versions of Windows that do not include certain multimedia technologies and to provide our competitors with specifications for how to implement certain proprietary Windows communications protocols in their own products."


It was a serious threat, it reminded Google that they can't be at the expense of other companies. This is why Android is needed by Google

It reminded Google in 2010, after Google's plan was already executed and pushing Android into the market.

If Google hadn't gone into competition with Apple and Schmidt remained on Apple's board do you really think Apple would switch to their old enemy Microsoft? Google obviously also knew that wouldn't happen, they aren't stupid.

Considering the gigantic amounts of money Google is spending on Android (e.g. purchase of Motorola Mobility for $12.5 billion), is it really worth it - Google's core business is advertising, not making gadgets.
 
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You can read the summary here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

"On 17 September 2007, Microsoft lost their appeal against the European Commission's case. The €497 million fine was upheld, as were the requirements regarding server interoperability information"

"In 2004, the Commission ordered us to create new versions of Windows that do not include certain multimedia technologies and to provide our competitors with specifications for how to implement certain proprietary Windows communications protocols in their own products."

Can you show me where it states that MS has to license Activesync? Because being forced to disclose how some protocols works has nothing to do with licensing technologies.


It reminded Google in 2010, after Google's plan was already executed and pushing Android into the market.

If Google hadn't gone into competition with Apple and Schmidt remained on Apple's board do you really think Apple would switch to their old enemy Microsoft?


Switch to their enemy, make their own map apps using their technology, bypass Google search using their technology, etc, etc.

With Android, Google owns the platform, in the iPhone/iPad they are at expenses of Apple.
 
Can you show me where it states that MS has to license Activesync? Because being forced to disclose how some protocols works has nothing to do with licensing technologies.

I'll repeat the quote I already posted:

"In 2004, the Commission ordered us to create new versions of Windows that do not include certain multimedia technologies and to provide our competitors with specifications for how to implement certain proprietary Windows communications protocols in their own products. [...] The availability of licenses related to protocols and file formats may enable competitors to develop software products that better mimic the functionality of our own products which could result in decreased sales of our products."

After you read this I refer you to this page at Microsoft, where even you can apply for a license of Microsoft's ActiveSync patents - no secret handshake required:

http://www.microsoft.com/about/lega...sing/Programs/ExchangeActiveSyncProtocol.aspx

"Microsoft licenses the patents for Exchange ActiveSync please contact us for more information. "

The specification is already out there: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc425499(v=EXCHG. 80).aspx

But you need the patents to provide a service based on them.

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With Android, Google owns the platform, in the iPhone/iPad they are at expenses of Apple.

Well that's the problem - they don't, as Amazon's Kindle Fire shows.
 
Yap, they do when they license their apps.

We're going in circles.

As you correctly say, the only way Google has any control over Android is when someone chooses to use their services. For that manufacturers must license the closed-source apps from Google, which are not part of Android itself.

So even if a mobile maker drops Google's services for something else they can still use Android, as AT&T did when they replaced Google with Yahoo:

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/03/03/att-android-phone-to-use-yahoo-not-google/

As Motorola does/did in China replacing Google with Bing:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/11/microsoft_bing_on_android_in_china/

And as Amazon does now. (I'm sure you don't need a reference for this one)

So if they can't even use Android to force manufacturers to include Google's revenue-generating services, what's the point of all the investment?

Anyway this has already gone too far off-topic. It's just my top pet Android question, that grows bigger with Google's increasingly bolder moves into mobile.
 
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Where have you seen this? I find it very hard to believe since he was both the CEO of Google and on the board at Apple until after Android's launch.

It was stated in the book In the Plex that while on the Apple board, Schmidt "kept his distance from Android, something that (Andy) Rubin regretted." Rubin mentioned that he was left to fend for himself with Schmidt's help or input.

Google's own CEO didn't participate on the Android project until after it's release?

Correct. See above. Google has three leaders, Schmidt, Page and Brin. Schmidt left Android up to Page to handle.

(As you probably know, they recently swapped jobs more or less. Page has become CEO and Schmidt is now Executive Chairman.)

Apple just licenses the ActiveSync protocol - like Microsoft's arch-rival Google also does - they don't actually use any of Microsoft's services.

Fair enough.

Microsoft had no option but license that, as their antitrust settlement with the DOJ and European commission forced them to open up their protocols to rival companies.

I'm not aware of Microsoft having to license ActiveSync. They smartly do it because that's how you make it a standard that everyone must license.

(Licensing their OS and smartphone patents is a different game: that's so "free" systems aren't so free after all.)

Are you claiming in a) that Android spies on its users? How do they make money out of "personalised information"? Do they sell it?

Both Apple and Google sell anonymous ads based on the fact that they have detailed information on people.

For example, Apple collects credit, age, sex, app and media preferences, even supposedly sexual preference information (depending on what you've bought) via iTunes sales. They then can charge more for ads because of these detailed demographics.

Neither one is selling the actual personal information, but rather are selling the fact that they HAVE that info and can target ads to each person.
 
Where have you seen this? I find it very hard to believe since he was both the CEO of Google and on the board at Apple until after Android's launch.

Google's own CEO didn't participate on the Android project until after it's release?



That's a very different kind of agreement from what Apple has with Google. I said "partners" not patent licensees.

Apple just licenses the ActiveSync protocol - like Microsoft's arch-rival Google also does - they don't actually use any of Microsoft's services.

Microsoft had no option but license that, as their antitrust settlement with the DOJ and European commission forced them to open up their protocols to rival companies.



Apple only held Bing over Google's head only with the iOS 4, released in June 2010. This was already after Schmidt had left and well into the smartphone "war".

Even then it wasn't a serious threat, as the default search engine was still well set to Google under a few good layers of menus.

Licensing technology developed and being developed by Microsoft is in every way equivalent to using the services of Microsoft. Microsoft is doing something for them. They are paying Microsoft for what they are doing. In what way is that NOT the same as Microsoft servicing Apple? :- )

Granted, my view is tainted by the so called Service-Dominant Logic. But still, this case i find quite straight-forward in the end.

Are you claiming in a) that Android spies on its users? How do they make money out of "personalised information"? Do they sell it?

Surely just making sure Google's services - like search and e-mail - are the best out there would be enough. It seems to have worked front the start (they beat Altavista and then Hotmail) - and they didn't need access to people's computers.

Im not making any claims to the extent in which data capturing takes place. Im sure it goes beyond what is publicly known, and what Google wants you to know. That said, they're probably on the right side of the law. With the growing attention to their business practices, they better be.

Second, do they sell it? It being information about you, the user. Of course. That is pretty much their entire business model. Facebook does the same. And the latter is the prime case in point for showing just how valuable personalized information is.

(Come to think of it, personalized information sounds like a ****** term on my behalf, but i suppose you get the point regardless).

Third, no. Just having the best product/service is not enough. And, all data are not born equally. The better you can profile someone, the more money you can make selling that data (once again, case in point: Facebook). Phones being devices with a) a pretty high rate of personalization, and b) being with you pretty much always, make them prime for such data gathering.

Last, to understand Google one must also understand its growth options. Google dominates search. Further, there is only so much we can search for. With few new users to win, and little ways of getting us to "search more", their way to grow is by getting us to use more of their services (so that they can get even more data, and sell even more ads). So yeah... guess i can cut it short here.

Cheers.

We're going in circles.

As you correctly say, the only way Google has any control over Android is when someone chooses to use their services. For that manufacturers must license the closed-source apps from Google, which are not part of Android itself.

So even if a mobile maker drops Google's services for something else they can still use Android, as AT&T did when they replaced Google with Yahoo:

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/03/03/att-android-phone-to-use-yahoo-not-google/

As Motorola does/did in China replacing Google with Bing:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/11/microsoft_bing_on_android_in_china/

And as Amazon does now. (I'm sure you don't need a reference for this one)

So if they can't even use Android to force manufacturers to include Google's revenue-generating services, what's the point of all the investment?

Anyway this has already gone too far off-topic. It's just my top pet Android question, that grows bigger with Google's increasingly bolder moves into mobile.

They can't force anyone, yet 99% of all (relevant) Android devices opt to include Googles revenue-generating services by free will. That said, why do Google need to force anyone again?

People in the alliance are likely to remain faithful to the alliance. If Google decides to pull out, what are they gonna do? Take over those billions in development costs themselves? How would they organize that? etc.

In short: Phone manufacturers are (somewhat) dependent on Android. Android is (somewhat) dependent on support of Google. Googles support of Android is (highly) dependent on that phone manufacturers license their services (help them get data). Ergo: Phone manufacturers are in a sense dependent on licensing Googles services. Thus, no force needed :- )
 
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Licensing technology developed and being developed by Microsoft is in every way equivalent to using the services of Microsoft. Microsoft is doing something for them. They are paying Microsoft for what they are doing. In what way is that NOT the same as Microsoft servicing Apple? :- )

Erm, no. Obtaining the specifications and licensing the patents is not the same as using the services (and servers in Apple's case)

The first are like buying the book, while the latter is like hiring the writer.

Last, to understand Google one must also understand its growth options. Google dominates search. Further, there is only so much we can search for. With few new users to win, and little ways of getting us to "search more", their way to grow is by getting us to use more of their services (so that they can get even more data, and sell even more ads). So yeah... guess i can cut it short here.

But Google didn't only have search. They had Maps, Mail... If they were still in alliance with Apple they might even have thrown in parts of iCloud as well, maybe tie Google Docs with iCloud documents. Lots of possibilities.

Not sure if souring their relations by competing in the same market was really the best option.

They can't force anyone, yet 99% of all (relevant) Android devices opt to include Googles revenue-generating services by free will. That said, why do Google need to force anyone again?

Well that 99% is about to get a major hit from Amazon's Fire . Are you sure it'll remain that high? What if the rumours of an Amazon phone are true?

People in the alliance are likely to remain faithful to the alliance. If Google decides to pull out, what are they gonna do? Take over those billions in development costs themselves? How would they organize that? etc.

Apple and Google also had an alliance, see how that turned out.

Don't see the rest of Google's alliances being any better, most manufacturers have other plans at the ready (Bada, Windows Mobile).

If Google demands too much they'll just jump ship, and then Google is left with a heavy OS investment but almost no one to make decent phones using their services. To make matters worse Google has even been giving some of their patents away in the name of defending Android.

Honestly it seems to me a certain company is not seeing the whole picture. But, while that company keeps dropping failed services every other week and is run by a pair of PhD dropouts, I can't believe they're that stupid so I'll just assume it's all part of the plan.

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LOL - since "smartypants" is such a "pre-school" expression.

See what I did there? :)
 
Don't worry. This thing is irrelevant. Just let them sell it. Let them make millions of it for a later fire sale.

While some of my want-to-be-special friends would like to try a Samsung smartphone, none of them have ever thought of any tablets other than the iPad.
 
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