Australian Regulators Prevent Banks From Collectively Bargaining With Apple Over Apple Pay

[KUguardgrl13]

I would not do business with a bank that didn't support Apple Pay, but I know that's easy for me to say as I live in the USA. Hopefully this ruling will help our friends in Australia, though the banks there sound very stubborn.

I am increasingly irritated by merchants who don't take Apple Pay for no good reason (I'm looking at you Target). It's so much faster than chip-and-signature, especially with an Apple Watch.

We're definitely spoiled for banks in the US that have Apple Pay. Even my little credit union with branches in two states has it. Of course we're only just getting chip cards and only for credit cards at that. Heck, a lot of stores I go to still don't have their chip readers activated. And most gas pumps don't have them at all which to me is a huge security risk since a lot of identity theft happens at the gas pump.

 

[uroshnor]

I think our banks just want competition, and tha benefits us the consumer. Apple takes a cut of each transaction (which it's perfectly entitled to do) but faces no competition. Unlike in the US our banks (generally) are world leaders, I can not think of one single place in Australia that I have been to in the last year that Apple Pay isn't accepted at. My home town has a population of 350 and is 100kms from the nearest town and every business (9 of them) accepts Apple Pay.
We've been using contactless payments for many years now. Apple is entitled to get a return on its NFC technology, but our banks have spent billions upon billions of dollars rolling out contractless payments nation-wide, there needs to be some negotiation.

Australian Banks don't want competition, they want control.

In the 80's when MasterCard and visa entered the Australian market , they tried to undercut & displace them with Bankcard.

The current debacle with Apple Pay is a combination of trying to recover ROI on their "early adopter" implementations that have a poor UX, and poor security, combined with a web marketing view of customers as something you need to control and hang on to as much of the user time as possible. Having sat through security reviews of Australian banking Apps by a customer who was building a whitelist of approved App Store Apps for company owned devices a couple of years ago , banks clearly have a different view of what should be secured - not certificate pinning HTTPS connections, transactions vulnerable to replay etc . They mitigate that weakness by maybe reversing the fraudulent transaction after the fact, whereas Apple Pay implements EMVco v3, and prevents skimming, replay and effectively assuming that the POS is compromised by using a pseudo one time pad for transactions. It may be true that what they implement today may use current practices and not be as craptacular, but it would not be leveraging their previous tech investment.

Forcing the user into bank branded Wallet for transactions is just wrongheaded . People don't carry an ANZ wallet for their ANZ cards, a CBA wallet for their CBA cards and a NAB wallet for their NAB cards. They just carry a wallet with their cards in it.

That's what Apple offers in a digital form.

The Australian banks (will fully) don't seem to understand that this is an area in which they add value by either actually adding value or getting out of the way in impeding the transaction. Tying up the user's time staring at their logo is not adding value.

The ACCC was spot on - allowing them to negotiate as a cartel would be an abuse of market power, and not actually increase competition.
[doublepost=1490934375][/doublepost]

Do you use the ING Bank app? Curious about how it performs, layout, easy-of-use. I'm not a big fan of the ANZ apps; and for a number of reasons I'm thinking about switching to ING. Cheers.

ANZ owns ING by the way...

 

[macfacts]

Bribing works.
[doublepost=1490936257][/doublepost]

... Apple is entitled to get a return on its NFC technology, ...

Apple got about $650 from each iphone sale. Is that not enough?

 

[szw-mapple fan]

I get that it's Apple's hardware, but their attitude is that the hardware can only be used by Apple's payment service and no one else's. What next - you can't make phone calls unless it's through Apple's own VoIP service?

It's Orwellian and it's worse for Apple customers in the long run.

How is that Orwellian? It's not like Apple is monopolizing the smartphone market. People buy Apple products because they like the level of control Apple has over its products and services. If you want other options, buy other smartphones.

 

[blablabla23]

ANZ owns ING by the way...

not true- they only sold their insurance and wealth management arm, which was re-branded to OnePath in 2010.

 

[samh004]

I totally understand that Australia is different to other markets. The investment in contactless payments started way before Apple. I use actual cash probably 5 times a year or less. Contactless card and occasionally chip-and-pin is the way for me.

So I'm not sure Apple Pay with my phone and watch will be game changing for me, in fact I know it won't be, I might not even use it often. But the ability to use it is all I desperately want.

I agree it would make more sense for competition to be allowed where banks could access the NFC themselves. However from what I have seen of how Apple Pay works, it'll work better as a system app than a third party app, and as Apple is all about customers having the best experience possible I believe this is why they have such opposition to it.

I guess we now wait for which bank of the remaining 3 caves to the pressure first. Hopefully negotiations have already started assuming they'd lose. Following one bank reaching agreement I expect the remaining will follow.

 

[wikiverse]

I would not do business with a bank that didn't support Apple Pay, but I know that's easy for me to say as I live in the USA. Hopefully this ruling will help our friends in Australia, though the banks there sound very stubborn.

I am increasingly irritated by merchants who don't take Apple Pay for no good reason (I'm looking at you Target). It's so much faster than chip-and-signature, especially with an Apple Watch.

Well, your banking choices would be limited to ANZ or ING. Basically it's a choice between excessive fees and crap service, or no branches.

TBH though, I see no major advantages to Apple Pay. I still need to carry a wallet for other cards and ID, and it will always be just as quick, if not quicker to use a card rather than a phone. Plus, I never have to worry about my phone crashing, or the battery dying and losing access to both my phone AND my money.

The security isn't really an issue either, since payments under $100 don't even require a PIN with any of these cards, and the maximum liability for any purchases made on any card is $50 if you report it as soon as you notice transactions that you didn't make.

That said, Screw NAB, Westpac and Commbank. Especially NAB. They can go F themselves.

 

[winston.x]

ANZ owns ING by the way...

Wrong, ANZ owns ING on the wealth management and insurance arm, not transactional banking, which is still owned by the Dutch ING

 

[Peeetski]

I have had an ING account for years. All set up in ApplePay now. Love it. Out for a walk with just my phone. Go get a coffee and ApplePay away! Sorry Commbank, will not wait for you any more.

Same here, and it's surprisingly awesome! I just set it up to mess around but I'll definitely stick with it.

 

[macTW]

As an Australian, an Apple and Commonwealth Bank customer - I'm actually disappointed at this. CBA introduced a mobile NFC payment solution back in 2011 because they were tired of waiting around for tech companies.

Now that Apple has decided they're good and ready, they've blocked NFC access to anyone who doesn't jump on board with *THEIR* scheme and pay a % of the transactions.

Commonwealth (and others) have invested hundreds of millions into this technology - now completely moot just because Apple says so.

I get that it's Apple's hardware, but their attitude is that the hardware can only be used by Apple's payment service and no one else's. What next - you can't make phone calls unless it's through Apple's own VoIP service?

It's Orwellian and it's worse for Apple customers in the long run.

I think our banks just want competition, and tha benefits us the consumer. Apple takes a cut of each transaction (which it's perfectly entitled to do) but faces no competition. Unlike in the US our banks (generally) are world leaders, I can not think of one single place in Australia that I have been to in the last year that Apple Pay isn't accepted at. My home town has a population of 350 and is 100kms from the nearest town and every business (9 of them) accepts Apple Pay.
We've been using contactless payments for many years now. Apple is entitled to get a return on its NFC technology, but our banks have spent billions upon billions of dollars rolling out contractless payments nation-wide, there needs to be some negotiation.

1) banks want access to the chip so they can create and allow only their payment option, so no. This is the opposite of competition.
2) Apple sells the iPhone as a whole. Licensed software, purchased hardware, etc. The NFC Chip & software combination falls under this. Apple has no legal right to be forced to allow open access to the chip, just as they have no legal right to show us how, say, the Messages app works or 3D Touch code.

 

[Kyle-K]

Do you use the ING Bank app?

Yes.

Curious about how it performs, layout, easy-of-use.

I'm also an ANZ customer.

performs, pretty well haven't had any issues.

layout, Basic and flat clean design similar to the ANZ one, but a few little tweaks that make it just a little bit better than the ANZ one. But it also has a couple of little problems.

easy-of-use, it's all about getting used to the changes.

however ING does have a little bit of swiping left and right to reveal different parts of the interface and needing to click on things to see what additional options available.

Security, I also feel that some of the options they do for security are definitely not the best.

I'm not a big fan of the ANZ apps

The ANZ apps are getting a little bit better as they start to merge everything back in to the one app, e.g. moving features over that once were only available in the grow app.

To see what will be getting in the future check the New Zealand version of the go money change log, as they seem to be rolling things out there first.

and for a number of reasons I'm thinking about switching to ING. Cheers

Remember to search online as they have a $75 signup deal they also have a 75 referral deal as well as $100 referral deal but someone needs to invite you for the hundred dollar deal.

 

[Poofy1971]

Every time I hear the words "increased competition and consumer choice" from a bank, cable company, media company, telecom, or insurer, I know they are flat out lying.

Because they always have our interests at heart.... /s

 

[Kyle-K]

ANZ owns ING by the way...

Wrong.

Wrong, ANZ owns ING on the wealth management and insurance arm, not transactional banking, which is still owned by the Dutch ING

not true- they only sold their insurance and wealth management arm, which was re-branded to OnePath in 2010.

Actually, ING sold its majority share in their joint venture on insurance and wealth services to ANZ which already owned the other portion.

See here on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ING_Direct_Australia#History

In September 2009 ING Bank Australia sold its AU$1.86 billion insurance and wealth management stake it had shared with ANZ in a joint venture since 2002 (51% ING Group ownership; 49% ANZ ownership[10]), making ANZ the sole owner.[11][12] The divestment of ING Insurance Australia followed similar measures globally as part of ING Group's structural changes as a result of the 2008 financial crisis.[13] In 2010, ING Insurance was subsequently rebranded as OnePath.[14]

 

[Wanted797]

Hahaha

I jumped to ANZ once I heard of this stupid endevour. Apple would pull Apple Pay from Australia entirely than let the banks have their way.

Yeah sure, for better consumer choice they'd totally support Apple Pay for their customers if Apple allowed them NFC access *rollseyes*.

 

[BlueParadox]

Yes.



I'm also an ANZ customer.

performs, pretty well haven't had any issues.

layout, Basic and flat clean design similar to the ANZ one, but a few little tweaks that make it just a little bit better than the ANZ one. But it also has a couple of little problems.

easy-of-use, it's all about getting used to the changes.

however ING does have a little bit of swiping left and right to reveal different parts of the interface and needing to click on things to see what additional options available.

Security, I also feel that some of the options they do for security are definitely not the best.



The ANZ apps are getting a little bit better as they start to merge everything back in to the one app, e.g. moving features over that once were only available in the grow app.

To see what will be getting in the future check the New Zealand version of the go money change log, as they seem to be rolling things out there first.



Remember to search online as they have a $75 signup deal they also have a 75 referral deal as well as $100 referral deal but someone needs to invite you for the hundred dollar deal.

Very good. I'm a recent ANZ customer after using westpac for sometime, which the latter seem to have invested a bit more time into their app - felt more polished.

Thanks for the info.

 

[macs4nw]

Every time I hear the words "increased competition and consumer choice" from a bank, cable company, media company, telecom, or insurer, I know they are flat out lying.

And they try so hard to be convincing and sincere..... putting politicians to shame really

 

[stracky]

...Commonwealth (and others) have invested hundreds of millions into this technology....

What an absolute load of rubbish. So far from truth it's not funny.

CBA, NAB and others are only interested in their own pockets and don't want to have to give Apple a cut on payments. Yet they want to use apples technology. This is why they want to get their own payment wallets onto your iPhone.

And you're trying to say Apple is the greedy people?! Maybe CBA should make their own phone.

 

[MrNomNoms]

As an Australian, an Apple and Commonwealth Bank customer - I'm actually disappointed at this. CBA introduced a mobile NFC payment solution back in 2011 because they were tired of waiting around for tech companies.

Now that Apple has decided they're good and ready, they've blocked NFC access to anyone who doesn't jump on board with *THEIR* scheme and pay a % of the transactions.

Commonwealth (and others) have invested hundreds of millions into this technology - now completely moot just because Apple says so.

I get that it's Apple's hardware, but their attitude is that the hardware can only be used by Apple's payment service and no one else's. What next - you can't make phone calls unless it's through Apple's own VoIP service?

It's Orwellian and it's worse for Apple customers in the long run.

As someone who used to work at ANZ, you're exaggerating how much money is invested into the technology given that it amounts to a rounding error in the grand scheme of things. The only reason why ANZ cut the deal is because they're leaking customers like a sieve and they needed 'something' to give them to the edge over the competition given that their internet banking is horrible and lacking in features that Commonwealth and competitors have had for years, their processing times for ANZ to ANZ transfers is a joke not to mention the whole SecureCode and verified by visa has been nothing less than a giant mess. Yes, the CEO launched it as the one saving grace in lieu of fixing long standing issues - the real solution would have been to burn ANZ Australia datacenter to the ground and adopt the system that ANZ New Zealand uses (which was inherited off National Bank which it inherited off Llyods Bank, the former owner) but alas the gimmick of Apple Pay is what they used instead.

I bank at ASB Bank and personally the whole Apple Pay is a solution in search of a problem outside of the United States. In the US it is a solution to a banking system that is 40 years behind the times but for everyone outside of the United States it is a cute novelty rather than a must have feature. If you want to just carry around the phone then get a PayTag from Commonwealth Bank and stick it on the bank of the phone - it'll pretty much do the same thing without having to wait for Apple Pay to arrive.

 

[crashoverride77]

Same. Credit, debit, and cash work fine. Easy to use. No additional setup. I don't understand the hype, if there is any outside of MacRumors.

You are probably one of those people that also think the Apple Watch is a failure.

 

[Cobaye]

And we should trust Apple?

who cares.... Commonwealth and other banks like them made the wrong bet.




They're lying to you....

Here are some rules to live by:
Never trust a bank, credit card company, ISP, or insurance company.

 

[MrX8503]

And we should trust Apple?

The company that said screw you to the FBI? Yes I would trust that company.

 

[Superrjamz54]

It's been much simpler to just take out the cards and swipe it other than pull out the phone and navigate though the software interface. If you use a older iphone the new update is setup to make the phone run slower, why bothers?

It's that hard for you to put your thumb on your home button? Or don't you understand how mobile pay works on any phone?

 

[Kameleon_au]

If the banks were serious about supporting Apple Pay alongside their own payment system, why then does my bank, NAB, not support Android Pay either? They have NAB Pay (original thinkers, clearly) which uses the NFC hardware on some android phones but that's it. And they've had access to that hardware for some time now

 

[Nermal]

Apple got about $650 from each iphone sale. Is that not enough?

On a related note, is there any "ongoing" cost to Apple for Apple Pay? For example, does it talk to Apple servers every time you do a transaction or does it work completely offline like Paywave does? If it's the latter, then why does Apple deserve money per transaction in the first place?

 

[Legendts]

Do you use the ING Bank app? Curious about how it performs, layout, easy-of-use. I'm not a big fan of the ANZ apps; and for a number of reasons I'm thinking about switching to ING. Cheers.

Isn't ING tied up with ANZ somewhere?

DISREGARD, POSTED PRIOR TO READING ADDITIONAL POSTS.....SORRY.