Australian Retailers Back Banks' Right to Negotiate With Apple

[kdarling]

Are you joking? They have had the last 6 or 7 years to get their banking apps right and they're junk for the most part. What makes you think they'll do it right just because they have access to the chip and in any case they will never have access to the double tap of the home button and that's the winner right there. There's nothing else to be said, but I'm sure you'll find something

Sure, I'm always open to debate

If NFC access was opened, then the current NEED for double-tap to pick a particular card would greatly lessen or even go away, because the merchant / transportation system / hotel or car key / whatever... itself would automatically launch the correct payment / setup app.

The current closed NFC is preventing all sorts of cool NFC apps.

 

[KmanOz]

Sure, I'm always open to debate

If NFC access was opened, then the current NEED for double-tap to pick a particular card would greatly lessen or even go away, because the merchant / transportation system / hotel or car key / whatever... itself would automatically launch the correct payment / setup app. Silly goose

So hang on. I have 2 X AMEX, and VISA. I choose what I want to pay with. How is that automatic? Forget about about Hotel room, lets stick with what I have right now.

 

[kdarling]

So hang on. I have AMEX, VISA and MC. I choose what I want to pay with. How is that automatic? Forget about about Hotel room, lets stick with what I have right now.

Wait. You constantly and randomly pick a different card just for the heck of it?

If so, you could indeed be the wacky exception that likes to pick a random card before getting to the counter, and I can see where double-click would be useful for such an unusual behavior. Or forget double-click... a custom wallet app that randomly picked cards would work even better

Or... do you pick a card by what merchant you're at?

 

[KmanOz]

The current closed NFC is preventing all sorts of cool NFC apps.

As you can see, it's hard enough getting banking into a smooth seamless UX, but Apple Pay does a damn fine job. I can just imagine what a dogs breakfast (you know, like Android) it would be if you allowed every man and his dog to access that thing. I don't want 1000 apps on my phone just to open a door. As for car keys, Apple is most definitely working on that. I look forward to it.
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Wait. You constantly and randomly pick a different card just for the heck of it?

I think you'll find most people have more than 1 credit card and have a method as to how the distribute their payments between them. So you mentioned something about automatic? How will that work?

 

[Nahaz]

Round Two Begins......

 

[Sparty93]

What? Of course there's an API for calling up Apple Pay. That's how bank and store apps access it internally now.

Heck, soon even websites will be able to use it.

https://developer.apple.com/apple-pay/

Semantics - you are right the way I stated it above is not true so I'll restate - There are no API calls in the ApplePay service for direct access to the secure enclave or NFC chip. The whole discussion is about AU banks requesting access to the NFC chip. There is no ApplePay API to do that.

 

[kdarling]

Semantics - you are right the way I stated it above is not true so I'll restate - There are no API calls in the ApplePay service for direct access to the secure enclave or NFC chip. The whole discussion is about AU banks requesting access to the NFC chip. There is no ApplePay API to do that.

Right, if there were already such a thing, then the banks wouldn't need to request it

 

[__dontpanic__]

Apple's argument makes no sense. They say that the banks want to stifle competition, yet here they are locking down their phones (which I might add, have a significant market penetration in Australia) so that no-one else can compete with their payment solution. It doesn't hold water.

Open up the NFC API and let the market decide what payment system is best. Android is doing it without issue - I have a Nexus 6P and use both Android Pay and the Commbank App (which is actually a very good app).

 

[G4DPII]

Are you joking? They have had the last 6 or 7 years to get their banking apps right and they're junk for the most part. What makes you think they'll do it right just because they have access to the chip and in any case they will never have access to the double tap of the home button and that's the winner right there. There's nothing else to be said, but I'm sure you'll find something

Why do they have do, NFC enabled cards are quicker and less hassle to use for small payments. Chip and pin in just as easy if not more so than the hassle of getting your phone unlocking opening up the wallet, selecting the card blah blah blah.

If you lot in the tinfoil hat brigade are so worried about stores tracking you, what do you think the camera's above the tills are also used for? To see how ugly you all are?

 

[ZCT]

My question is, what are these Australian banks willing to pay to access the NFC technology for their own app and payment methodology?

Apple did all the work to make Apple Pay viable. Now these banks, eager to leverage NFC payments for their own profits, want a piece of the pie. A pie they did not pay for in the first place.

So will they be willing to pay Apple for a percentage of development costs, a percentage of the profits Apple imagined they would make from embarking on this project?

It just seems a bit unreasonable to expect a technology firm to spend millions for the convenience of some banks that did not make any of this possible.

 

[vpndev]

Maybe Coles wants to buy MCX for their own, custom system? I'm sure MCX would love that.
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...because for example Best Buy makes you sign with ApplePay and no other place I've been does.

I've had that happen elsewhere, but not often.

It's not customization. It's just poor implementation. Typical for BestBuy, party why I seldom go there.

 

[Recognition]

The banks are also free to develop their own smart phone and market it.

Or develop their own NFC dongle, wrist band or sticker like Barclays UK have done...
That worked out well...so well they signed up to Apple Pay in the end!

 

[just.in.time]

apple can be considered the greediest in all this argument.they provide zero back end support when transactions happen. the banks are still taking all the risk, processing etc yet apple want a slice of the pie.

Apple tomorrow could solve the whole problem by getting rid of their cut.

another problem is the fact here in Australia paypass is already considered second nature. I can't remember when I didn't use It.

Apple spent the time making the phone. Their house, their rules. If the banks want their own wallet solution that bad, they can go make their own phone.

The Australian banks didn't give Apple loans when it was just starting up in the 70s, nor when they struggled in the late 90s, and certainly not when developing any iteration of the iPhone. Ergo they have zero say in how Apple operates their phone.

Not saying I agree with it, but Apple's house, Apple's rules. While Apple would like to have Apple Pay with the Australian banks, I doubt they care enough to open up the NFC hardware.

 

[RedOrchestra]

but Apple's house, Apple's rules

Au Contraire - the banks are ruling this roost and Apple wants in and wants to get paid for letting them in. The banks are in no hurry - they've been offering secure contactless pay credit and debit cards for years, in Australia.

 

[tmiw]

So...do Australian retailers have Android apps that let you use NFC in some fashion right now? Seems odd that they'd weigh in on this.

 

[kdarling]

Apple did all the work to make Apple Pay viable. Now these banks, eager to leverage NFC payments for their own profits, want a piece of the pie. A pie they did not pay for in the first place.

Wait. What?

Without the banks, there would have been no NFC payment infrastructure for Apple Pay to use.

Merchants, banks, credit networks and consumers have paid billions over decades to help create the worldwide infrastructure that allows us to pay virtually anywhere with any card.

--
Moreover, no, they're not asking to use Apple Pay. They're asking for access to the NFC hardware, same as can be done with any other phone.

It's no different than someone wanting access to the camera, WiFi, or any other hardware that a manufacturer includes. Heck, the whole purpose of a smartphone having apps, is to provide the platform upon which others can use that smartphone. Locking down a part of it for money is just overt greed.

 

[Tech198]

Competition is good.... That's why we have more than "one" smart phone to choose from... When Apple adopt's it's own Apple Pay it can control, it sings a different "tune" to companies..

Apple wants everyone to be in their eco system... telling banks what they should be doing, like Apple tells customers what they should do...

Notice a pattern here ?

Well Apple,,, i use what i want so

 

[CarlJ]

If the banks want to negotiate, individually or collectively, with Apple, fine. Business and commerce are made out of negotiated contracts. If they want the government to require Apple give them access into parts of the iPhone's hardware -- especially parts intimately connected with the phone's security -- then oh hell no! That's not negotiating. Or, rather, its like "negotiating" with someone while pointing a gun at them.

Also, if what they want is the ability to negotiate collectively, what about the bank (ANZ?) that already offers Apple Pay (causing some of the other bank's customers to jump ship) - do they want the government to require that bank to remove their existing connection to Apple Pay, so their side of the table actually represents all Australian banks?

 

[kdarling]

If the banks want to negotiate, individually or collectively, with Apple, fine. Business and commerce are made out of negotiated contracts. If they want the government to require Apple give them access into parts of the iPhone's hardware --

Nope, they're not asking for the government to force anything.

They only want to be able to negotiate together without running afoul of antitrust laws.

At least they're asking for legal permission to do so and not operating undercover like some corporations. (Hint: think back on all the times that Apple created secret cartels, from anti-poaching deals to e-book pricing.)

 

[dave2010]

There's more than just fighting over the transaction fees in this. Coles, the retailers association and banks really want users to keep using a system that tracks payments and feeds information on users back into their systems.
Fly buys and other rewards are also less likely to be used if there's an extra step involved in using it.

 

[MrX8503]

Apple's argument makes no sense. They say that the banks want to stifle competition, yet here they are locking down their phones (which I might add, have a significant market penetration in Australia) so that no-one else can compete with their payment solution. It doesn't hold water.

Open up the NFC API and let the market decide what payment system is best. Android is doing it without issue - I have a Nexus 6P and use both Android Pay and the Commbank App (which is actually a very good app).

Do you have the choice to use Android Pay without the Commbank App?

 

[Abazigal]

An even easier fix would be for Apple to offer Apple Pay for free to iPhone owners (i.e. NO surcharge to the banks) similarly to how it handles it's other proprietary software like iMessage and FaceTime ... done.

Start lobbying Apple now.

Not interested. It in my my own interests to ensure that Apple remains in a position of strength so it can continue to fight for the best deals with other companies on my behalf.

 

[kdarling]

Not interested. It in my my own interests to ensure that Apple remains in a position of strength so it can continue to fight for the best deals with other companies on my behalf.

Got an example of them making deals "on my behalf" part?

I mean, Apple doesn't get great deals on manufacturing prices or memory chips, and pass the savings onto us. Instead, they do things like charge us for little memory increments and keep the extra profit for themselves. Tens of billions of extra profit.

Apple could've used the fees from OUR Apple Pay purchases to give us some nice rewards kickbacks, like at least the banks and merchants often do. But again, Apple wanted it all for themselves. For doing nothing during the purchase.

Is their insistence on wanting Amazon and others to pay for selling in-app movies from non-Apple servers, something done on our behalf? Nope. They want money for, again, doing nothing except gating access to iPhone owners.

Was Apple's e-book price fixing done on our behalf? No, it was done to benefit Apple.

Apple tends to be a greedy bully when they're in a strong position. It's part of the legacy Jobs left.

 

[julian8109]

I'm really considering starting a change.org petition, these banks in Australia have been shafting us Aussies for too long.
Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions on wording that would get the most impact?
Thanks

 

[RedOrchestra]

I'm really considering starting a change.org petition,

You would go through all that just to show everyone, at the next check-out line, you have an iPhone with Apple Pay? WOW