AVCHD or miniDV HD?

[nutmac]

Yeah - the popular Canon HV20/HV30 are miniDV HD cams that shoot full 1080 - looks crazy plugged into an HDTV.

Full 1080 refers to 1920 by 1080 progressive. HV20/30, or any HDV camcorders for that matter, are not full 1080, limited to 1440 by 1080 interlaced or 1280 by 720 progressive. 24p/25p/30p modes at 1440 by 1080 using 2:3 pulldown and/or progressive segmented frame.

3rd and later generations of AVCHD camcorders are full 1080 with 1920 by 1080 resolution, also achieving 24p/25p/30p via pulldown and/or progressive segmented frame.

 

[CMD is me]

...HDV camcorders are limited to 1440 by 1080 interlaced or 1280 by 720 progressive.

3rd and later generations of AVCHD camcorders are full 1080 with 1920 by 1080...

true but watching both on my 720p projection system the HDV (HC9 HV30) looks slightly (very slightly) cleaner than the AVCHD (SR12), especially than the cheaper SR10. In specs the SR10 looked like a real gem. On screen it almost didn't look like HD. I'm always more interested in practice than theory.

Perhaps on a 1080p projector the difference would have favored the AVCHD, but I don't have one.

 

[CMD is me]

Just a follow up on the dropouts

HDV tape drop-outs -- I've been playing around all weekend with a few cameras. Today when I was watching a 10 minute HDV segment recorded 1080i on a NEW, but "standard" quality, miniDV tape there were 3 drop-outs on the footage. I assume it was the tape. I guess that's another argument for tapeless.

Hope I'm not speaking too soon, but for anyone following this thread, it LOOKS like it as a bad tape. Freaked me out really, but I bought the mac daddy $13 HD tape today and had no dropouts. I have another post on this topic but wanted to add this to the post.

 

[nutmac]

true but watching both on my 720p projection system the HDV (HC9 HV30) looks slightly (very slightly) cleaner than the AVCHD (SR12), especially than the cheaper SR10. In specs the SR10 looked like a real gem. On screen it almost didn't look like HD. I'm always more interested in practice than theory.

720p is not full 1080. That said, just like megapixel hype on digital cameras, there's lot more to perceived image quality than number of pixels (e.g., image sensor, compression algorithm/bitrate, and lens). Nevertheless, it is still wrong to call HDV full 1080. With just about every new flat screen TV models sporting 1080p, I can see why many are drawn to "full 1080", however.

HV30 has 2 main advantages: (1) larger image sensor (1/2.7" vs. 1/3" on SR12, 1/3.2" on HF10/100, and puny 1/5" on SR10) and (2) lower resolution (1440 by 1080 vs 1920 by 1080) combined with higher maximum bitrate (25 Mbps vs. 16 Mbps on SR10/12 and 17 Mbps on HF10/100) -- giving it more room for each frame.

Although AVCHD (MPEG-4 H.264) is more efficient than HDV (MPEG-2), it is computationally intensive. Canon's new HF11 should bridge the gap with 24 Mbps maximum bitrate but Mac users are still faced with lack of native AVCHD editors and playback applications. With hard disks becoming cheaper and cheaper (about $250 for 1 TB FireWire hard disk), it isn't that difficult to create redundant AVCHD backup ($180 1 TB USB disk should be sufficient). Although some claim MiniDV tapes to be more durable than hard disk, I have experienced many tape failures and not having redundant backup is asking for trouble.

 

[bandaros]

Full 1080 refers to 1920 by 1080 progressive. HV20/30, or any HDV camcorders for that matter, are not full 1080, limited to 1440 by 1080 interlaced or 1280 by 720 progressive. 24p/25p/30p modes at 1440 by 1080 using 2:3 pulldown and/or progressive segmented frame.

3rd and later generations of AVCHD camcorders are full 1080 with 1920 by 1080 resolution, also achieving 24p/25p/30p via pulldown and/or progressive segmented frame.

Sorry, but the HV20/30 actually does capture full 1080p - ie 1980x1080 footage, but the footage is merely is stored/processed in HDV which is interlaced.

If you bypass tape recording (ie work through HDMI ports by means of a card like BlackMagic Design HDMI) and use the appropriate software, you actually can record FULL 1080p.

The card costs about 200-300, so if you're serious about getting the most out of an HV20/30, it doesn't cost the earth.

 

[nutmac]

Sorry, but the HV20/30 actually does capture full 1080p - ie 1980x1080 footage, but the footage is merely is stored/processed in HDV which is interlaced.

If you bypass tape recording (ie work through HDMI ports by means of a card like BlackMagic Design HDMI) and use the appropriate software, you actually can record FULL 1080p.

That doesn't sound practical. Do you honestly expect people to carry Mac Pro for shooting?

 

[bandaros]

That doesn't sound practical. Do you honestly expect people to carry Mac Pro for shooting?

Practicality is not the question here. Of course for the consumer it's impractical - but you're talking about the possibility of footage that is near-identical to that of a $10k camera - from a camera that is currently available at around $700-$800. I think any inconvenience caused would pay for itself through the results - the image quality.

Great for the indie filmmaker types who like to put themselves through hell to cut costs

Anyway, I was just responding to your comment that the HV20 cannot shoot 1080p. It can - just with a little inconvenience.

 

[CMD is me]

Actually that sound pretty cheap for a true 1080p picture. Only 3 yrs ago I was looking at $1800 3 CCD standard def camera and 3 yrs before that a $1300 single CCD miniDV that wasn't 16:9 native. What you can buy theses days for under $1000 is amazing.

 

[nutmac]

Practicality is not the question here. Of course for the consumer it's impractical - but you're talking about the possibility of footage that is near-identical to that of a $10k camera - from a camera that is currently available at around $700-$800.

Actually that sound pretty cheap for a true 1080p picture.

Like I said, 3rd generation AVCHD camcorders such as Canon HF10/11/100 ($600-1000) can capture full 1080 without requiring $200 add-on card and carrying Mac Pro for capturing full 1080. Since HF11 has 24 Mbps bitrate, the quality should be more or less equal to HV30 when it comes out. And while I am not intimately familiar with $10,000 professional camcorders, I am inclined to say HV30 is no match for their massive lens and image sensors.

That said, if you want native editing on Mac OS X today, HDV is still the way to go. I personally have no issue having to convert AVCHD footage to AIC/ProRes, but it is both timing consuming and hogs lots of disk space. Battery life is also comparatively worse. For me personally, being able to rapidly copy AVCHD footage to Mac with memory card reader (as disk image... I wish FCP/FCE/iMovie can import from any source), as well as total random access capability (very easy to delete a footage) offset these disadvantages, but your mileage may vary.

Since several inexpensive native AVCHD editors exist for Windows, I am willing to bet that the next update to Final Cut Pro/Express, and quite possibly iMovie as well, will support AVCHD natively. Hopefully, the update will bring 5.1-channel surround sound as well.

 

[bobbleheadbob]

I just bought the Canon HF10 last month. I really like it so far, but like everyone else, wish that iMovie and FCP supported it natively. However, I don't think that likely to be the case for long and am hoping for an update soon.

That said, I'm keeping my Sony HD mini DV tape camcorder, too.