AVP price is insane compared to similar Mac hardware

[LinkRS]

This is going to be an unpopular post, but what the heck.... The AVP is overpriced. Even Apple knows it. However, Apple has always (always) maintained a sizeable profit margin on what they sell, and this is no different. Apple will sell a few of these to Apple die-hards, a few to folks based of the idea of the AVP, and a few folks who (at least think they) understand Apple's Spatial Computing vision. This will equate to a large majority of the initial shipment being sold out, making this a hard product to find. However, the proof is always in the longevity. When the first Oculus Quest came out, it sold like wildfire due to price and the hype factor. It dropped off as VR is still not a mainstream seller, and the fact that Apple wants to distance themselves from AR/VR/MR/XR and focus on "spatial computing" is even more telling. I see this product as very much like the iPad. When the iPad first came out, it was a tool looking for a problem to solve. Most of us had no need for a tablet, as it was just a big phone that you couldn't make calls on. However, Apple sold them due to a combination of hype, and promise of tablet "experiences." You could argue that the iPad is still not doing as well as Apple would like, as quite a few more non-Apple tablets are sold, but it is (again) arguably the best tablet experience. I see the AVP as a device that few will buy, but many will watch. Once Apple can demonstrate a compelling use-case (app) that has mainstream appeal, and release a "lower" cost model, the AVP will hold its own. The fact of the matter right now is, VR is very much focused on games, which is something the AVP is handicapped against. It certainly has the processing power and is the most powerful stand-alone headset, but without a dedicated controller, it will limit what games work well on it. History has shown that in the gaming sphere, requiring an add-on, rarely increases sales. Frown away....

 

[Timo_Existencia]

This is going to be an unpopular post, but what the heck.... The AVP is overpriced. Even Apple knows it. However, Apple has always (always) maintained a sizeable profit margin on what they sell, and this is no different. Apple will sell a few of these to Apple die-hards, a few to folks based of the idea of the AVP, and a few folks who (at least think they) understand Apple's Spatial Computing vision. This will equate to a large majority of the initial shipment being sold out, making this a hard product to find. However, the proof is always in the longevity. When the first Oculus Quest came out, it sold like wildfire due to price and the hype factor. It dropped off as VR is still not a mainstream seller, and the fact that Apple wants to distance themselves from AR/VR/MR/XR and focus on "spatial computing" is even more telling. I see this product as very much like the iPad. When the iPad first came out, it was a tool looking for a problem to solve. Most of us had no need for a tablet, as it was just a big phone that you couldn't make calls on. However, Apple sold them due to a combination of hype, and promise of tablet "experiences." You could argue that the iPad is still not doing as well as Apple would like, as quite a few more non-Apple tablets are sold, but it is (again) arguably the best tablet experience. I see the AVP as a device that few will buy, but many will watch. Once Apple can demonstrate a compelling use-case (app) that has mainstream appeal, and release a "lower" cost model, the AVP will hold its own. The fact of the matter right now is, VR is very much focused on games, which is something the AVP is handicapped against. It certainly has the processing power and is the most powerful stand-alone headset, but without a dedicated controller, it will limit what games work well on it. History has shown that in the gaming sphere, requiring an add-on, rarely increases sales. Frown away....

If you don't have a use case for it, then it has no value for you. Period. No need to pretend you understand anyone else and their vision/use case/value. Clearly, you don't have a use case for an iPad, and seemingly can't understand that others think/work/act/create differently than you.

The AVP isn't for you. You can simply move on. No frowns earned.

 

[TLewis]

And for the R&D that it took to build it, they need to be able to recoup that as well.

Yup. So many people here think that years of R&D is free and does not cost anything. After all, Apple engineers work for free, right? 🤣

and seemingly can't understand that others think/work/act/create differently than you.

This is the internet in a nutshell.

 

[AlastorKatriona]

OP, you're point is correct. The comments that followed have tried to explain why it costs what it does, and they all completely miss your point. It's expensive because it uses expensive hardware. But that doesn't translate to functionality. It translates to an iPad simulator in VR.

A Mac can actually do things, and create things, for what it costs. Its value can't be overstated (even with egregious BTO prices). Vision Pro has no similar value.

 

[MockT]

A Mac can actually do things, and create things, for what it costs. Its value can't be overstated (even with egregious BTO prices). Vision Pro has no similar value.

It can create as much or as little as any other current Mac with similar specs - because it is a Mac. That's the beauty of it. The office suite is available natively from the start - so are dozens more productivity applications. This is the single most productivity focused HMD. To say it has no value because it can't create like other Macs is just ... ignoring the information we have available.

 

[Polinsky]

This is going to be an unpopular post, but what the heck.... The AVP is overpriced. Even Apple knows it. However, Apple has always (always) maintained a sizeable profit margin on what they sell, and this is no different. Apple will sell a few of these to Apple die-hards, a few to folks based of the idea of the AVP, and a few folks who (at least think they) understand Apple's Spatial Computing vision. This will equate to a large majority of the initial shipment being sold out, making this a hard product to find. However, the proof is always in the longevity. When the first Oculus Quest came out, it sold like wildfire due to price and the hype factor. It dropped off as VR is still not a mainstream seller, and the fact that Apple wants to distance themselves from AR/VR/MR/XR and focus on "spatial computing" is even more telling. I see this product as very much like the iPad. When the iPad first came out, it was a tool looking for a problem to solve. Most of us had no need for a tablet, as it was just a big phone that you couldn't make calls on. However, Apple sold them due to a combination of hype, and promise of tablet "experiences." You could argue that the iPad is still not doing as well as Apple would like, as quite a few more non-Apple tablets are sold, but it is (again) arguably the best tablet experience. I see the AVP as a device that few will buy, but many will watch. Once Apple can demonstrate a compelling use-case (app) that has mainstream appeal, and release a "lower" cost model, the AVP will hold its own. The fact of the matter right now is, VR is very much focused on games, which is something the AVP is handicapped against. It certainly has the processing power and is the most powerful stand-alone headset, but without a dedicated controller, it will limit what games work well on it. History has shown that in the gaming sphere, requiring an add-on, rarely increases sales. Frown away....

There isn't a single guess, assumption, presumption, etc in this post that I believe. My favorite is the "even apple knows it" is overpriced. Just how did you come to that bit of insight? On second thought, I don't even want to hear the explantion. Ignore list is now open.

 

[Polinsky]

If you don't have a use case for it, then it has no value for you. Period. No need to pretend you understand anyone else and their vision/use case/value. Clearly, you don't have a use case for an iPad, and seemingly can't understand that others think/work/act/create differently than you.

The AVP isn't for you. You can simply move on. No frowns earned.

Well said!

 

[klasma]

It is quite obviously far more sophisticated than a Mac mini strapped to your face.

Yep, the Mac mini weighs more than twice as much.

 

[klasma]

I see this product as very much like the iPad. […] it was just a big phone that you couldn't make calls on.

The iPad sold very well exactly because it was just a big iPhone (and affordable), since many people were interested in exactly that. The first iPad sold 300,000 units the first day, and 15 million units within the first year. (The iPhone sold 40 million units in 2010.) The AVP, however, for many people is just an inconvenient to use and very expensive iPad with some gimmicky 3D visuals. The value proposition is much less clear.

 

[tomtad]

But does your Mac attach to your face?

 

[Chuckeee]

But does your Mac attach to your face?

My wife complains all the time that my face is glued to the screen. 🤭

 

[danwells]

It's not even a Mac - it's really an iPad with a creative user interface (hardware power overlaps significantly between iPad Pros and low-end Macs). VisionOS, however, is much closer to iPadOS than to MacOS. It IS a super-creative user interface, and I have no doubt that it will be the best consumer XR headset yet. It uses significantly higher-end hardware than any other consumer-grade headset (is anything else even 4K)? Apple is also clearly the best UI developer in the industry, so I have every reason to expect that the UI will be less clunky than any other headset, probably MUCH less clunky. Apple stuff Just Works, and it has Just Worked for me since my 128K Mac (I'm going to buy a really top-end 16" M3 Max MacBook Pro right around my first Mac's 40th birthday, and there have been a LOT of Macs in between). My question about the Vision Pro isn't whether it will Just Work (I'm reasonably certain it will), but what it will Just Work for, and whether that slot is worth $3499+?

The problem is "what's the killer app for that UI"? To sell in large numbers, it needs something that only it can do, and that justifies a price that otherwise buys an M3 Max MacBook Pro. Maybe I'm misjudging how much room people have in their device-buying budgets, but I'm guessing that most people (who have room in their budget for even one $3500 device) don't have room for two - and that one slot is generally taken up by your Mac. I could buy a Vision Pro if I REALLY wanted one, but it would mean living with my 2019 Intel MacBook Pro for another couple of years, instead of upgrading to the fire-breathing M3 Max I have my eye on. Since VisionOS is a variation on iPadOS, that means that you're accepting something with iPad style software limits as your "big device", and accepting that XR is going to be your primary computing interface.

It's also super-expensive if it's taking up the "TV" slot in your life. Maybe it's a fantastic device for watching movies, but is it a BETTER device for watching movies than a really top-end TV in the 80" range? You can have 8K or OLED around 80" in that price range (but not both). Or is it better than a nice 65" OLED and $2000 worth of home theater gear? Those are its competitors as a home entertainment device, and they're formidable.

The third possible app is as an ultimate videophone. I have no doubt whatsoever that a Vision Pro will be the best POSSIBLE device for FaceTime (and for Zoom, Teams, etc. when the apps become native). The question is whether there are enough people who do enough videoconferencing to buy a $3499 personal videoconferencing device. Expensive videoconferencing tools traditionally bring in a whole conference room, not one person working at home. For the maximum benefit, everybody has to be on a Vision Pro. Is there any scenario outside of Apple itself where that's likely? Maybe military officers and executives who travel a lot connecting with their families? Enlisted personnel and other travelers might like it, but you'd have to be pretty senior to afford it. And, assuming there are kids or pets, it would be hard to have another Vision Pro on the family side (try getting a headset on a Golden Retriever)...

It would be a great tool for online classes, but even Harvard can't afford it for everyone (they didn't even hand out decent webcams during the pandemic - I was a grad student there and had quite a few classes where Chromebooks and cheap PCs with ridiculously terrible webcams disrupted Zoom classes). If a place with that kind of resources won't loan out $100 hardware to make online classes work better, good luck getting schools with LESS resources to hand out $3500 devices. If you're wearing a Vision Pro and someone ELSE pops in with a Chromebook, you still get the disruptive video glitching and audio dropouts. To make online classes work better, everyone would have to have uniformly good hardware and connections. You would also have to use something other than Zoom (which glitchily conserves bandwidth no matter how fast a connection it has). A whole class on FaceTime with Vision Pros WOULD be better, but that would be very hard to arrange...

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

It's not even a Mac - it's really an iPad with a creative user interface (hardware power overlaps significantly between iPad Pros and low-end Macs). VisionOS, however, is much closer to iPadOS than to MacOS. It IS a super-creative user interface, and I have no doubt that it will be the best consumer XR headset yet. It uses significantly higher-end hardware than any other consumer-grade headset (is anything else even 4K)? Apple is also clearly the best UI developer in the industry, so I have every reason to expect that the UI will be less clunky than any other headset, probably MUCH less clunky. Apple stuff Just Works, and it has Just Worked for me since my 128K Mac (I'm going to buy a really top-end 16" M3 Max MacBook Pro right around my first Mac's 40th birthday, and there have been a LOT of Macs in between). My question about the Vision Pro isn't whether it will Just Work (I'm reasonably certain it will), but what it will Just Work for, and whether that slot is worth $3499+?

The problem is "what's the killer app for that UI"? To sell in large numbers, it needs something that only it can do, and that justifies a price that otherwise buys an M3 Max MacBook Pro. Maybe I'm misjudging how much room people have in their device-buying budgets, but I'm guessing that most people (who have room in their budget for even one $3500 device) don't have room for two - and that one slot is generally taken up by your Mac. I could buy a Vision Pro if I REALLY wanted one, but it would mean living with my 2019 Intel MacBook Pro for another couple of years, instead of upgrading to the fire-breathing M3 Max I have my eye on. Since VisionOS is a variation on iPadOS, that means that you're accepting something with iPad style software limits as your "big device", and accepting that XR is going to be your primary computing interface.

It's also super-expensive if it's taking up the "TV" slot in your life. Maybe it's a fantastic device for watching movies, but is it a BETTER device for watching movies than a really top-end TV in the 80" range? You can have 8K or OLED around 80" in that price range (but not both). Or is it better than a nice 65" OLED and $2000 worth of home theater gear? Those are its competitors as a home entertainment device, and they're formidable.

The third possible app is as an ultimate videophone. I have no doubt whatsoever that a Vision Pro will be the best POSSIBLE device for FaceTime (and for Zoom, Teams, etc. when the apps become native). The question is whether there are enough people who do enough videoconferencing to buy a $3499 personal videoconferencing device. Expensive videoconferencing tools traditionally bring in a whole conference room, not one person working at home. For the maximum benefit, everybody has to be on a Vision Pro. Is there any scenario outside of Apple itself where that's likely? Maybe military officers and executives who travel a lot connecting with their families? Enlisted personnel and other travelers might like it, but you'd have to be pretty senior to afford it. And, assuming there are kids or pets, it would be hard to have another Vision Pro on the family side (try getting a headset on a Golden Retriever)...

It would be a great tool for online classes, but even Harvard can't afford it for everyone (they didn't even hand out decent webcams during the pandemic - I was a grad student there and had quite a few classes where Chromebooks and cheap PCs with ridiculously terrible webcams disrupted Zoom classes). If a place with that kind of resources won't loan out $100 hardware to make online classes work better, good luck getting schools with LESS resources to hand out $3500 devices. If you're wearing a Vision Pro and someone ELSE pops in with a Chromebook, you still get the disruptive video glitching and audio dropouts. To make online classes work better, everyone would have to have uniformly good hardware and connections. You would also have to use something other than Zoom (which glitchily conserves bandwidth no matter how fast a connection it has). A whole class on FaceTime with Vision Pros WOULD be better, but that would be very hard to arrange...

To me the killer app is spacial. Much like they quote it to be.

So check it out. I can set up 20 windows all around my desk, and they stay there as my work space. But when I walk over to my coffee table, my fixed 130" TV stays fixed there. When I walk over to my kitchen table, games stay fixed there. When I walk to my fridge, I have stock tickers fixed there. When I look at my windows, each window has a live camera feed of London, Paris, Tokyo showing me live weather and time there, as if my windows have a great view of those cities. When I go to work, I can have another work space fixed there. I can augment my environment wherever I go, and have the device remember how to augment that environment for me. That is super killer.

Then you start getting into some speciality things. How to fix this motor. Reach for this NOW HIGHLIGHTED knob, turn it, use this drill, etc.

If you start getting mobile. You could have amazing games like treasures in actual geographic locations. It can augment real world places (if you dont mind looking like a dork in public).

I can even see it augmenting your real world workspace. You are looking at your mac screen through them, and it highlights things that aren't aligned correctly. You could ask siri, what's the command to reset PRam and it highlights the sequence of keys you have to hit on the keyboard. You could be watching the news and ask it to block any spoilers about a game or movie that might pop up.

But to me the killer app is augmenting my reality. Make all the walls of my apartment blue in the morning, then yellow during the day, and red at night! Put up wall paper. Make the walls disappear and show nothing but the surface of the moon. Make the ceilings pools of water, and the floor clouds!

Make EVERYTHING a whiteboard that I can use my finger to write on. Everything is graffitable.

Social media in actual physical locations.

I dont know if any of the above is likely, but there is so much potential.

The iPad sells largely as a 'lifestyle' device. People lounge around with it and take it to the bathroom as a toilet companion. There are some verticals that make use of it, by the bulk, it's just a lifestyle device. I can totally see the AVP being another lifestyle device. You use it to lounge and do something that you just prefer doing on it because of its form factor and style.

 

[danwells]

The how to fix this motor stuff is one of the main professional uses of XR(and it's highly successful) - are you going to want a glass front while working on an engine?

 

[Jensend]

The headset with the most comparable specs to the Vision Pro is the Varjo XR-4, which is $3,990, but doesn’t have a built in computer (but it does include two spatial controllers).

 

[danwells]

That's clearly made for professional visualization. Vision Pro would probably excel at that, but it's a small market that wouldn't normally interest giant Apple.

 

[Sami13496]

Pricing. It’s not about how much the hardware parts cost.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

You could argue that the iPad is still not doing as well as Apple would like, as quite a few more non-Apple tablets are sold, but it is (again) arguably the best tablet experience.

The iPad absolutely dominates in its category.

Apple Continues to Dominate Tablet Market With an Estimated 19.2 Million Shipments in Q4 2020

Apple continues to hold a dominant position in the tablet market thanks to continued iPad sales growth throughout 2020, according to new data shared...

www.macrumors.com

This is from 2021, but no doubt it hasn’t changed very much since.
And this has pretty much been true since the iPad launched.
Sure, there have been blips of success in the tablet market from other companies (Kindle fire, Nexus seven) but none have even come close to the iPad.
Apple still sells more iPads than Macs, and iPadOS is still way more robust for the tablet form factor than android for tablets.

 

[4sallypat]

The iPad absolutely dominates in its category.

Apple Continues to Dominate Tablet Market With an Estimated 19.2 Million Shipments in Q4 2020

Apple continues to hold a dominant position in the tablet market thanks to continued iPad sales growth throughout 2020, according to new data shared...

www.macrumors.com

This is from 2021, but no doubt it hasn’t changed very much since.
And this has pretty much been true since the iPad launched.
Sure, there have been blips of success in the tablet market from other companies (Kindle fire, Nexus seven) but none have even come close to the iPad.
Apple still sells more iPads than Macs, and iPadOS is still way more robust for the tablet form factor than android for tablets.

I am one that is hoping the VP will be my new go to computing platform.

I am not an iPad / tablet person.

Never got to enjoy using the iPad.

Have 2 iPads currently (Pro for work and Gen 8 at home) but never use it.

Much rather use my 27" Studio display Mac or 13.6" MBA M2.

Maybe the screen size has something to do with it as my vision has declined over the decades ?

 

[AlastorKatriona]

It can create as much or as little as any other current Mac with similar specs - because it is a Mac. That's the beauty of it. The office suite is available natively from the start - so are dozens more productivity applications. This is the single most productivity focused HMD. To say it has no value because it can't create like other Macs is just ... ignoring the information we have available.

You're about as uninformed as anyone could possibly be on the product. Stop spreading misinformation.

 

[Analog Kid]

There is no similar Mac hardware.

It's like trying to compare the price of a washing machine and Corolla because they both have an Arm7 in them. They do, but that doesn't make them in any way comparable and it's certainly not what's setting the price.

 

[MockT]

You're about as uninformed as anyone could possibly be on the product. Stop spreading misinformation.

I'm not sure what you mean. Here's my source. Have a gander at the native apps available at launch.

These Third-Party Apps Are Optimized For Apple Vision Pro So Far

Ahead of the Apple Vision Pro launching on February 2, developers are in the process of preparing their apps for the mixed reality headset. So far,...

www.macrumors.com

 

[AlastorKatriona]

I'm not sure what you mean. Here's my source. Have a gander at the native apps available at launch.

These Third-Party Apps Are Optimized For Apple Vision Pro So Far

Ahead of the Apple Vision Pro launching on February 2, developers are in the process of preparing their apps for the mixed reality headset. So far,...

www.macrumors.com

It's an iPad. It's not a Mac. Those things are about as different as they can possibly be. One creates the other, and not the other way around.

 

[MockT]

It's an iPad. It's not a Mac. Those things are about as different as they can possibly be. One creates the other, and not the other way around.

Ohhhh - so your stipulation being that productivity in the Apple ecosystem does not exist outside of macOS. No wonder I was confused ...

 

[AlastorKatriona]

Ohhhh - so your stipulation being that productivity in the Apple ecosystem does not exist outside of macOS. No wonder I was confused ...

Yes, I deal in reality, exclusively. Not in fantasy land where iPad is a serious productivity device.