bad hardware/ good OS

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by feh, Jun 25, 2007.

  1. feh macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    #1
    Before I get started, I am typing this on a Quad Xeon Intel Mac Pro [which I think is a great machine], so I am in no way a windows fanboy, etc.

    My problem, however, is with Apple's notebooks. In a word, they suck.

    As much as I did not want to admit it to myself, I've come to the realization that they are not worth owning. Why? Because they are too bloody HOT.

    A trip to any Apple store will dispel all doubt. Just lay your hands on any one of their display machines -- machines that get some use on a continual basis (I will not enumerate the denizens of the various Apple stores, suffice it to say that these machines are almost always being used by someone...).

    Consequently, this is the best enviornment to show their true thermal characteristics as it reflects my normal power user computing profile.

    How tempting it was to not believe all the bad press about melting keyboards, especially when faced with a nice lukewarm Microcenter display macbook -- the fact that it was in sleep mode all day barely sets off the alarm bells -- After all it looks so pretty, surely people were overstating the 70-90C...?

    But no, having actually ordered a C2D macbook a few months back, I discovered the awful truth. Apple makes s**t notebooks.

    For a week I suffered through the smc fan control, etc, but I couldn't help worrying about the MTBF for a fan running above 3k rpm continuously -- especially when this is well outside of it's design parameters.

    So I returned it and bought a Mac Pro -- but this doesn't take care of my mobile computing needs. So I began to consider a macbook pro and all the posts saying how cool it runs.

    This of course turned out to be utter bulls**t as apple store demo mac pro units were uniformly hot to the touch. Zero improvement.

    I held out, however, hoping that all the returned notebooks and the high rate of apple care service costs, etc would set off some kind of Alarm in cupertino.. Some pencil pusher would say... wow, we're not making nearly as much as we should in the mobile segment... maybe it's because our notebooks have inherenet design defects...

    But no... Jobs instead changes chinese factories thinking it's manufacturing's fault.

    Wrong. It's the crap design and Apple's philosophy in general; a mindset that is tailored to the soccer mom who wants something quiet and cute.

    So they dump a truck load of thermal paste on the heat pipe, totally swamping the processor core so the fans don't kick in as they should -- the problem being that when you turn plastic into a heat sync it melts.. duh.

    Yet as long as the soccer moms are happy. After all when you only check email that cute macbook doesn't get THAT hot.

    Now if it weren't for the OS I really wouldn't care about the fact that Apple has it's head up it's A$$. But I do very much enjoy OSX.

    I could care less about itunes or any of the non-computing segment crap that Jobs seems to focus primarily on today (ergo the very very small amount of innovation in the computing segment of late), but I do want to keep using OSX but not at the expense of buying defective hardware.

    So I have ordered a Thinkpad T61 and will be going back to windows/linux for mobile computing until apple gets a clue (read: never).
     
  2. flopticalcube macrumors G4

    flopticalcube

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Location:
    In the velcro closure of America's Hat
    #2
    Its a tradeoff between quiet and hot. My MB C2D is consistently cool at around 55-60C. It is quieter than many PC laptops I had (or tried) and is certainly smaller. I doubt smcFanControl would cause problems for the fan due to overwork. Some people have been using programs like folding@home running their fans full tilt without issue. I think the MTBF of the fans is a lot more than most people think. The very fact that MBs and MBPs are so popular - and not just with soccer moms - with so few problems is a testament to Apple design. I grant you the build quality has fallen off a bit over the last year or two and the Mac Pro is definitely a better built machine.
     
  3. yellow Moderator emeritus

    yellow

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    #4
    I just got rid of a T60 from work and it was hot as hell. Don't expect too much.

    Frankly, multiple cores will generate a lot of heat. Therein lies the rub.
     
  4. kellah macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    #5
    I thought that was was one of the benefits of multicore -- lower clock speed -> less heat?
     
  5. yellow Moderator emeritus

    yellow

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    #6
    Well, it's not really a lower clock speed. They're 2.4GHz.
    And there's 2x as many cores to generate heat!
     
  6. DZL macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, CA
    #7
    mac pro, or macbook pro

    i just ordered a mbp 17" - but now I'm re-thinking this purchase.

    it hasn't shipped yet, and i do a lot of high-end 3d work - which i'm afraid will run that machine very hot.

    should i cancel the order, and order a mac pro instead?

    thanks guys,

    Matt
     
  7. feh thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    #8

    this is from notebookreview's review of the T61:


    Notebook Temperature when Idling Temp. After running 3DMark05
    ThinkPad T43 (2.0GHz Pentium M) 57C 68C
    ThinkPad T61 (2.0GHz Core 2 Duo) 42C 50C

    42C at idle and 50C after heavy load is fine by me
     
  8. anirban macrumors 6502a

    anirban

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2007
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    #9
    I beg to differ- yes, they run hot, but not nearly as hot as people have claimed. It is possible that I may have lucked out or something, but if I had to deliver a verdict based on the machine that I am using, I would say that its not true.

    I just purchased a MBP last week. I play Quake 4 on it all the time, and the highest temperature reading that I got after playing it constantly for over 1.5 hrs was 76 degrees Celsius (the highest it has ever reached since I received the machine). This is high, but not as high as people have claimed- At this point, the fans do kick in, and run at about 4500RPM. Once I quit the game and return to basic tasks, such as iTunes, email, and word processing- the temperature drops down to 48 degrees, and you dont hear the fans at all.

    This is not to say that what others are saying is crap, I am just giving my opinion.
     
  9. feh thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    #10
    that depends on if you work at a desk, or need a mobile solution... A mac pro crushes a mbp in computing power also. My geekbench score for my 2.66/3gb/x1900xt is over 5000 vs. 2-3k for a mbp.

    I love this mac pro, esp. with parallels 3.0 now (3D support), just wish apple would make a cooler running laptop.
     
  10. Watermonkey macrumors member

    Watermonkey

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Location:
    NE Washington State
    #11
    I run BOINC when I'm not actively using my MBP and many is the time when I've come back to see the CPU A temp at 71 C. And the fans are running all out sounds like a small jet engine in there. But under normal usage it stays at or just under 60 C and you can't really hear the fans at that temp. It's hot, but not unacceptably hot for my expectations. I've got a 17" 2.33/160/2 and the fans will kick up pretty good when playing Doom or other graphics-intensive games too. That's a pretty powerful GPU in there apparently.
     
  11. dartzorichalcos macrumors 65816

    dartzorichalcos

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Location:
    Atlantis
    #12
    That might come true with Penryn chips and beyond. Penryn will run cooler.
     
  12. chaosbunny macrumors 68000

    chaosbunny

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Location:
    down to earth, far away from any clouds
    #13
    Good luck with the thinkpad. They are terribly unreliable since lenovo makes them.
     
  13. feh thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    #14
    76C is hot. Too hot for lap use. Also what is the temperature of your computing enviornment. This is a huge factor. If you need to use a mbp in 80+F setting, the 76 would be in the 80s quick.

    Another thing I encounter with the macbook i tried out is it always ran sub-par, underclocking the cpu and constantly going into some power save mode even when I had it set off. Wish they'd just put a 1.2Ghz pentium M or some other cool running solo centrino and have it actually perform rather than a crippled duo.

     
  14. feh thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    #15
    3yr lenovo warranty $119 vs. $349 apple care (teh irony)

    Look I have no interest in astroturfing for some commie company. I really don't want to use windows, but I can't take the heat so I'm getting out of apple's kitchen.
     
  15. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #16
    I have one and and it is a great machine. You will find tens of thousands who think likewise. You just read about a few complainers here.
     
  16. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #17
    see ya!
     
  17. feh thread starter macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    #18
    so called complainers actually force change and keep a company accountable -- a company that otherwise wouldn't take action to improve their product lines.

    What sucks is a fan boy who jumps on anyone who constructively points out legitimate problems with a product line in the hopes that these issues will be addressed in the next revision.
     
  18. Taylor C macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    #19
    90% of people who buy Apple notebooks are satisfied/impressed with their quality. There are -always- going to be bugs, no matter what revision a product is. Most of the time, these don't affect every model produced, and only affect a small number of consumers. People who say "Oh, Apple notebooks have so many issues" get this information because, in general, people who DON'T have problems don't feel the need to post how much they love their computer; they just enjoy it.

    Also, because Apple makes their own hardware, any defects a product has tend to be more highly publicized than that of other corporations. I've owned iMacs, PowerBooks, and of course what I currently have. I've never had a manufacturing defect with -any- of these products, and have been very pleased with the attention to detail and stability. If you have a problem, call Apple, or go to an Apple store. Apple's very good (most of the time) at dealing with issues.
     
  19. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Location:
    Singapore
    #20
    just remember that apple IS a software company at heart. they never were really the hardware company. thus why their hardware is bought and isnt always the best.
     
  20. md63 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    #21
    The T61 is supposed to be a nice machine and cool running. I have been using Thinkpads for work for the past 5 years and currently have a T60. They are very well build machines and great for travel. I agree with you that OSX is a great OS but the hardware could be a little better constructed and designed. The third generation of a laptop shouldn't have issues with flickering yellow screens, machines running so hot that they would burn your plants off, and power cords that seem to short out with minimal usage. I've only had my MBP for a few weeks and while I generally love it, I believe its more for the OS than the hardware.
     
  21. DZL macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena, CA
    #22
    this may be true, but most people don't use 3d apps, or compositing programs - and need their screen to be as close to true color as possible.

    heck, most people don't need macbook pro's. the regular macbook will do waaay more than most people need.

    i'm just picky because i can't afford a laptop that will run hot, have inconsistent illumination, and bad colors.
     
  22. Scarlet Fever macrumors 68040

    Scarlet Fever

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Location:
    Bookshop!
    #23
    my MacBook 1.83GHz Core Duo idles at ~50C, and gets up to about 70C under load. The case doesn't feel too hot, though.
     
  23. Ibjr macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Eastern seaboard
    #24
    Ya. I'd like a source on that and not some deductive reasoning. Even macintouch rates it lower.

    You drive other people away. He has a point. They are willing to insure their computers continue to work for 3 years for far less than Apple (even as a student you'd pick it up Applecare for around 70 dollars more). Instead of arguing points you just piss people off.

    Now, lets address what he is saying. Ever non-apple laptop i've found that runs core2 in a thin enclosure has heat problems.
     
  24. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Location:
    Singapore
    #25
    have u felt the bottom hahahahaha???
     

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