Big Lens Discussion

[Hughmac]

As many of you may know I took the plunge and bought a Sigma 150-600mm Contemporary, and thought that as quite a few here have big lenses we could have a discussion on problems, technique etc.

I'm still getting the hang of this monster lens and I've found little difference between using f/8 or 6.3, but am I expecting too much as I still get slightly blurry birds at extreme distance (I'm talking the other side of a lake distances)?

I am mostly hand holding by the way as I'm trying to avoid carrying a tripod out in the field.
Same results on a Nikon Z 50 or D300S by the way

Cheers

Hugh

 

[r.harris1]

Paradoxically, I’ve found that the best images for me come from getting as close as I can to the subject. With long distance shots, things like slight movements with hand-holding and atmospheric conditions (heat shimmer) really whack image quality. Get in a boat, get out in that lake and get close to that bird 😀.

 

[Hughmac]

You're probably right, hand holding at 600mm and extreme subject range is optimistic at best

Cheers

Hugh

 

[mollyc]

I haven't tried to use mine at long distances yet, other than to treetops. But I will say that from the experience of using other lenses sharpness at a distance is always seemingly reduced. It's something I've always called pixel per eyeball. In this instance, perhaps pixel per feather. 🙂 If you shoot closer, and a bird is basically the whole frame, there are a lot of pixels to give resolution and detail to the feathers. If you shoot farther away, then a lot of those pixels are going to everything else in the frame - lake, trees, sky, etc. It's the same with portraits. A headshot will always appear sharper than a full body image.

Then of course there are the non-lens factors, like camera resolution, technique, shutter speed, etc. A Z7 will be much sharper than a Z50 with the exact same specifications because there are more pixels and you can zoom in further (crop factor of the Z50 not withstanding).

All that said, I do have a friend who also recently got this same lens and she is unable to get anything sharp, even shooting still subjects on a tripod. She has had it to the camera shop once and they confirmed then tried to calibrate with the dock and she is still unhappy, so she is going to exchange it for a different copy. I know several people in my current wildlife workshop are all using this lens with great results, but there can be bad copies of any lens.

On the other hand, if you are only seeing issues with shooting at a distance, I think it's just a matter of tweaking your technique a bit. Do you have a monopod? That could help. There are also focus limiting buttons on the side of the lens. Have you checked those? All my other lenses that have that only cut out the near focusing, but the Sigma allows you to cut out far focus. I would check to make sure you are set to infinity or the far focus option.
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If you are really concerned/curious you could post a couple of samples of what you are getting and your settings. I try not to shoot below 1/1000 and then I also shoot in burst mode just to be safe.

 

[Hughmac]

Yes, as above I think I've been asking too much of the lens, but I'm always willing to blame me first and the equipment last.
I don't think I have a poor copy, although I will set it back to default in the Sigma Dock in case the previous owner mucked about with the settings, and my focus is set on the button to cover the full range.

This photo was taken at the furthest distance of yesterday's shots, and hence cropped the most (down to about 1600 x 1100), but looking at it again I suppose it has acceptable sharpness considering the range -



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The lens hood on this monster is much too large for my liking, so I bought a 95mm screw in metal hood which is about 1 inch deep and seems to do the job. I also bought a 105mm Sigma branded lens cap which is for the 150-600mm Sport, and that covers the hole in the lens hood perfectly

Cheers

Hugh

 

[mollyc]

well it's hard to know how far away you were and how much you've cropped, but if at a far distance and then cropped more i think this is likely fine. 🙂

 

[Ray2]

Mono pod. Helps a lot. Micro Four Thirds? My solution.

 

[Clix Pix]

What an interesting looking bird! Some sort of duck?

Yes, shooting at a distance with a long lens can indeed be problematic for all the reasons mentioned by others here..... And, yes, too, the resolution of the camera can make a difference. Since it is a used lens, there is also the possibility that somewhere along the line it sustained some unseen damage, which may now be affecting the quality of images shot with it. Try a few different things, see if that makes a difference or not.

 

[Hughmac]

well it's hard to know how far away you were and how much you've cropped, but if at a far distance and then cropped more i think this is likely fine. 🙂

Thank you. It was a long way away and a heavy crop.

Mono pod. Helps a lot. Micro Four Thirds? My solution.

I have a mono pod but won't use it unless I really have to. My wife comes out with me and she's quite wobbly, so I also need to keep and eye and an arm for her if needed.

What an interesting looking bird! Some sort of duck?

Yes, shooting at a distance with a long lens can indeed be problematic for all the reasons mentioned by others here..... And, yes, too, the resolution of the camera can make a difference. Since it is a used lens, there is also the possibility that somewhere along the line it sustained some unseen damage, which may now be affecting the quality of images shot with it. Try a few different things, see if that makes a difference or not.

It's a great crested grebe, one of our most attractive water birds.
Thanks for the advice.

Cheers

Hugh

 

[Clix Pix]

Ah, a Grebe! I would guess that we don't have them here in the US, or if we do, I've never seen one, although I have seen other types of Grebes. Fascinating looking, really!

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

One challenge to longer lenses is the narrow DOF you have to work with as you go long. It can make it more challenging to get all your subject in focus if the subject is really close, though that can sometimes be your friend, too. Still, at long distances, you do have to cut through more atmosphere, which is not solely limited to heat and humidity, but all the other crud (allergens, dust) suspended in the air. It is certainly diminishing returns, or at least working around less than ideal atmospheric conditions to get the best results.

Still, I love M43 for the longer end. By far, my most-used lens is the Panasonic 100-300 mk II (200-600 FF eq framing). There’s a 90% chance my POTD submission came from this lens. It’s a little over 1lb in weight and under 5” long collapsed, or under 3lb total with my G9, so it’s not hard to carry around at all for the day. The dual-IS makes for easy hand-holding. I’ve gone all the way down to 1/15s at high ISO and been able to read small text (though it’s a very limited scenario).

I’ve contemplated the PL100-400, but it’s over 2x the weight of the P100-300. It’s a sharp lens, but I just don’t know if I’d want to wield it.

 

[Clix Pix]

One of the prices we pay to have long reach is, alas, the weight and heft! My 200-600mm (the Bazooka) is just too heavy for me to tote around on casual walks around the lake and the neighborhood or other places; it's really better suited to using on a tripod. The other day when I was out walking around on the boardwalk and had all kinds of delightful encounters with various creatures, I kept thinking, "dang, I've got the wrong lens (the 90mm macro) on here -- I need something longer but the Bazooka just is too heavy!" Yesterday I went to a local camera shop and came home with the solution, one I'd been thinking about for a while, the Sony FE 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 GM. Bingo!

The shot I posted in today's POTD is one of the first shots taken with that lens. It's the right weight for me to carry around and to hand-hold, and gives me the reach I need to capture elusive squirrels, ducks or geese and other creatures I run across on my walks. it doesn't replace the Bazooka, it complements it. The Bazooka is still going to get its turn on the camera from time to time.....

 

[Apple fanboy]

Thank you. It was a long way away and a heavy crop.

I have a mono pod but won't use it unless I really have to. My wife comes out with me and she's quite wobbly, so I also need to keep and eye and an arm for her if needed.

It's a great crested grebe, one of our most attractive water birds.
Thanks for the advice.

Cheers

Hugh

Could your wife use the monopod as a walking stick? I do that with nine sometimes when hill climbing.

As for the lens what settings are you shooting at? If you aren’t getting sharp images at 1/1000 try 1/1500 as a minimum.
It’s all a bit of trial and error. With my 200-500 I’m fine hand held for a bit, but then it gets a bit wobbly! Usual I look for a fence or something if possible. Tripod sometimes (but it’s just another thing to carry!).

Also don’t forget atmospherics. When shooting with a 50mm and a relatively close subject there isn’t much between you and the subject.
With a 600mm lens and a distant subject there is a lot of dirty air between you and the subject.
The de haze slider is your friend.

 

[Hughmac]

Could your wife use the monopod as a walking stick? I do that with nine sometimes when hill climbing.

As for the lens what settings are you shooting at? If you aren’t getting sharp images at 1/1000 try 1/1500 as a minimum.
It’s all a bit of trial and error. With my 200-500 I’m fine hand held for a bit, but then it gets a bit wobbly! Usual I look for a fence or something if possible. Tripod sometimes (but it’s just another thing to carry!).

Also don’t forget atmospherics. When shooting with a 50mm and a relatively close subject there isn’t much between you and the subject.
With a 600mm lens and a distant subject there is a lot of dirty air between you and the subject.
The de haze slider is your friend.

If my wife had another leg she'd be even more confused

Yes, I'm probably shooting at too lower a speed, but like you say it's trial and error at this stage.

De haze - good idea, thanks.

Cheers

Hugh

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Yeah, I try to really keep the shutter speed up on longer lenses. A good exercise is figuring out your max ISO (that is, what you are willing to work with in terms of noise), and then push yourself up to that limit when you need it. For my G9, 1600 is my outdoor cap (I’ll go much higher indoors), though I try to keep it under 1000 and let dual-IS do some of the work. Just depends on if my subject is moving.

 

[Apple fanboy]

If my wife had another leg she'd be even more confused

Yes, I'm probably shooting at too lower a speed, but like you say it's trial and error at this stage.

De haze - good idea, thanks.

Cheers

Hugh

The faster the better. At least whilst you are learning the technique. I will say that 90% of the shots I take with mine are within a few yards of my house! I also don’t bother with UV filters and the such (even though I got one with it). It’s just another piece of glass you are shooting through. It’s not like I’m going to damage it at that distance!

 

[Ambrosia7177]

If you want good outdoor photos...

When should you use a tripod?

Always.

 

[Ambrosia7177]

I haven't actively shot in maybe 15-20 years, and so the world has changed A LOT since then, but when I shot, I preferred shooting with a Mamiya RZ67 or large format, and so you *always* use a tripod. And really, even, shooting with 35mm and smaller lens, a tripod is your friend if you want top-notch photos.

I'm sure you can get away with quite a bit more these days, but you absolutely need a rock solid tripod from B&H Photo if you go over maybe 200mm lens.

The one I have in storage is aluminum - I forget the name - and it wasn't big or heavy, but was solid, and with a quick-rlease tripod head, click/unclick and you are ready to go.

 

[robgendreau]

It's really tough to get good shots at distance with lenses this big handheld. WAY more duds than keepers. As Texas_Toast noted. I don't even try save in an emergency. A monopod can work, but not as the sun starts going and the critters come out. If you need to track, a gimbal is pretty essential. There are make shift solutions too, but at the end of the day there are reasons all the pros who have to get the shot rely on tripods and monopods. And even use shutter delays and external releases too.

Even my little 40-150mm with a 2x tc on M43 benefits from it.

 

[Strider64]

I was fortunate to have an American Robin nest on the side of my house this year. I followed the progression and I was basically forced to use a big lens as the parents wouldn't come to the nest to feed the brood if I got too close. One of my best shots came hand holding a Sony 100-400mm GM lens on my Sony A9 one early morning as the last American Juvenile Robin was leaving the nest. I didn't have time to switch lenses or camera (I wished I had my Sony A7RIII camera for the extra resolution), but to my surprise it was one of my best shots that I did. Which is kind of funny as it was also the very last shot of the brood (Kind of). Looking back I wished I would had put my Batis 135mm lens on one of my camera bodies to get close up on the brood, but if I every run it to that lucky situation I will know what to do. Though I can get good shots on a tripod and gimbal using a bigs lens which is usually essential with taking pictures of BIF.

 

[mollyc]

Yeah, I try to really keep the shutter speed up on longer lenses. A good exercise is figuring out your max ISO (that is, what you are willing to work with in terms of noise), and then push yourself up to that limit when you need it. For my G9, 1600 is my outdoor cap (I’ll go much higher indoors), though I try to keep it under 1000 and let dual-IS do some of the work. Just depends on if my subject is moving.

Hugh’s Z50 should do well with higher ISOs. The blue jay image I posted yesterday was at 20k with my Z6. Hugh should easily get to 8000.

 

[Clix Pix]

I much prefer tripods to monopods in some ways, in that when the main camera is mounted on the tripod and one is shooting with a group, people are standing around waiting for bird or animal action to happen, we can safely step away from our cameras (keeping them within eye-shot, of course) in order to chat with each other or to pick up a second camera and do some other, additional shooting. With a monopod I have to hang on to the thing the whole time. A monopod is easier to tote around though, both with and without the camera on it!

Yes, an external shutter release can help greatly, and a gimbal head such as the Wimberley WH 200 II can make a world of difference. I am looking forward to the arrival of the one I ordered — Some years ago I had the first-generation Wimberley gimbal head and then at some point, thinking I was done with shooting with long lenses and all that, I sold it. So what happens? After a bit of time away, all of a sudden here I am once again with the long lenses and the need for a gimbal!!! I am leery of putting my 200-600mm on the ballhead; I was spoiled by that gimbal I had in the past. So, I had intended to get one some months ago but the whole pandemic thing kind of interrupted my process. Yesterday when I was at the camera shop buying the 100-400mm it was disappointing not being able to get the Wimberley at the same time. Thank goodness for being able to order online!

 

[mollyc]

Am I the only one who prefers handholding except for long exposures?

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Am I the only one who prefers handholding except for long exposures?

Literally 99.99% of my content is handheld.

The last time I tried to do use one was for some night sky shots, and, not realizing I was outside, Mrs. Darmok locked the back door. To make matters worse, her phone was on vibrate, so I had to bang on the back window to get her to let me in, scaring her senseless. That’s what happens when I use a tripod!

 

[Clix Pix]

Am I the only one who prefers handholding except for long exposures?

Not at all! I much, MUCH prefer handholding, which is one reason I just bought the new lens!!! There are times when I’ve shot a macro or closeup and later in reviewing the image, have thought, “argh, I shoulda used a tripod!” One is sitting in the other room, ball head on it and everything, but..... I really prefer handholding because it allows for more spontaneity, more ability to quickly respond to a changing situation, to pick up and move on easily when one has shot a particular subject or scene during a walk.....

I realized some time ago that the 200-600mm, much as I love it and love the images I can get from it, is just too darned heavy and awkward for me to walk around with, and I am really happy that I’ve bought a 100-400mm now, which will give me that kind of flexibility that I most enjoy: walking around with the camera, seeing something and simply raising the camera to my eye and firing away — no fuss, no muss with a tripod or monopod.

That said, though, yes there are times when a tripod pretty much is required, and I realize that if I ever want to use the 200-600mm somewhere other than just shooting from my deck (where I have been supporting the camera and lens on the railing) I really need to have and use the appropriate tools, and in this case, it’s a matter of getting the Wimberley gimbal to stick on the same tripod that used to wear the old one. I may not use it all that often, that remains to be seen, but it will be available when needed. In the meantime, yes, I can go off wandering around the neighborhood or anywhere else with the smaller, shorter, lighter lens and shoot with it handheld and be more than happy, too.....