Bizarre Creations: PGR4

Coded-Dude

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So, before I post - it is just news - lets discuss it constructively and rationally......:)

Bizarre Creations has been forced to change Project Gotham Racing 4's lighting options due to the size limitations of a DVD.
Ben said:
You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy.
link to Bizarre website with staff explanation

Now while some saw this coming(maybe just not this soon), others are probably still in denial....but programming for the top end consoles this gen(360 and PS3) is gonna take up a lot of space. Of course there are "other" solutions - such as multiple discs, HDD installs, etc. - but the latter is only a solution if every machine had a hard drive. Multiple discs would definitely work, but could(and probably would) pose as a negative mark when your run of the mill ignorant, idiotic gaming consumers is making a purchase decision. Lets face it, the majority of the populace bases their decisions on what the media tells them(instead of using their own informed opinion).

Many devs say the two consoles are relatively similar(CPU/GPU), but with a larger optical storage capacity and HDD standard, we may begin to see other "differences" in games before we thought. It will be interesting to see how this issue continues to evolve, and what OTHER dev teams decide to do when faced with similar decisions.

Would you sacrifice anything(lighting, textures, overall game length, etc), or would you bite the bullet and go for the multi-disc solution. You could(as a dev team) also get a little cocky and sell "elite" copies of the game that do allow for HDD install. Of course that would mean the "Regular" edition would have to fall below standard retail prices, or the "Elite" edition will be pricier than standard retail pricing.
 

Sky Blue

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Jan 8, 2005
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Can't they just put it on Blu-Ray and run it off the soon to be released Xbox Blu-Ray drive?
 

zero2dash

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Given that we've survived as gamers this long on DVD...I think this gen is safe.

Next gen will absolutely need a higher capacity format, whether it's BluRay, HD-DVD, downloadable games, or something altogether 'new'.
 

0098386

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Multidisc for a racing game? Heavens no.

I find it very hard to believe, unless these are ungodly sized textures. All a racing game consists of is track data (maps and textures), audio, a physics engine and UI. There's no story so no cutscenes, no giant worlds? I'm now expecting this game to have more tracks than F-Zero GX and I hope Bizarre don't disappoint.

That said if it came down to it I'd still pick the 360 version. Everything else aside - only 1 system has Live. No amount of night/day cycles will change that.
 

e²Studios

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Given that we've survived as gamers this long on DVD...I think this gen is safe.

Next gen will absolutely need a higher capacity format, whether it's BluRay, HD-DVD, downloadable games, or something altogether 'new'.
One could have said the same exact thing about CD based games ;)

Mid 2008 the 360 will start to feel the pain more which is unfortunate for the userbase, but it wouldn't be the first time MS has screwed their userbase with poor hardware choices.

Ed
 

steamboat26

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May 25, 2006
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I'd rather get everything on one disk, forza 2 only has one type of weather, and i love it. So long as the cars look good, and so does the environment, i'm happy
 

zero2dash

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Yeah but the majority of the games around the time of CD-based games were 2D which required less space. 3D games were still (for the most part) in infancy on CD-based systems. Next gen though, again...definitely needs better than DVD because the texture and polygon work will only climb higher and higher.
 

Coded-Dude

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^^Which is what I am saying.......for a racing game, it would be nice to have a fully customizable environment(time of day/lighting), but doesn't really impair the game. However, in other games lighting plays an important role in immersing one into the "world," so what gets cut ion that instance? A level, a few cutscenes, number of unique textures, etc.? It will be interesting to see what each dev does.
 

wwooden

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Jul 26, 2004
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I bet the 360 will get through 2008 without too many problems using DVD. Good developers will be able to utilize the space efficiently and create cross platform games that have the same features.

I think that as we get into 2009 the DVD may become a bottle neck for the 360 and I wouldn't be shocked if Microsoft came out with an all new XBox, they seem to be changing the rules of consoles as they go.

I really don't think we will ever get to a point where games will be completely downloaded over the internet. Having a hard drive only leaves a finite amount of space for games, while if you have them on disk you can have unlimited games in your inventory. Also, as the years go on in a consoles life, the games get more complex and use up more space so it would mean even fewer could be stored on a drive.

I really wonder what Microsoft will use after the DVD. With HD-DVD still in questions (I am an early adopter of the HD-DVD 360 drive), would they be willing to install a Blu-Ray drive if HD-DVD dies?
 

Sdashiki

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Aug 11, 2005
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Dual-Layer DVDs exist...?

Though most choose not to use them for the high cost of production.

But, how much does Blu-Ray & HDDVD gonna cost to produce?
 

bobber205

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When all the 360s die at once and M$ has to do free replacements, that'll be a perfect opportunity to sneak in new HDDVD/Bluray drives.
 

JackAxe

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In a cup of orange juice.
DL DVDs still cost less than HD DVD and BR discs from what I recall and they even work on my 1999 Sony DVD player. The fact that this dev team couldn't fit a racing game on an 8 Gig disc makes me wonder... Maybe they shouldn't hire so many interns/cheap-labor. :] These are the same types of peeps that can't work in lower rezes and generally botch the overall art quality do to their inexperience.

<]=)
 

0098386

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DL DVDs still cost less than HD DVD and BR discs from what I recall and they even work on my 1999 Sony DVD player. The fact that this dev team couldn't fit a racing game on an 8 Gig disc makes me wonder...
Exactly.

That said this studio isn't an exclusive developer. Or perhaps Sony dropped a wad in their pocket :D Best thing to not trust any large developer any more until their games are out.

And I hope HD's do become the next gen storage device. Publishers won't have to plump out the disc with filler, FMV will be abolished (still surprised to see it isn't with the power of these consoles). Just make them detachable so I can take games to my friends houses :D
 

Sdashiki

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Aug 11, 2005
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Wait, they haven't already been putting games on DL DVDs?
I thought that was the reason so many people were gripping about space limitations?
What am i missing here? :confused:
not many games are on DL, it can create lots of problems that programmers have to deal with.

Like what data goes on what layer, and how does that data correspond to data on the opposite layer? The laser has to refocus over and over to switch layers so giving alot of thought as to how to lay the data out on the disc, might be a reason.
 

zero2dash

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Gigs? Pshaw.

Our Xbox daddy Bill Gates said that "640K of memory should be enough for anybody", so Bizzare should be ashamed...ashamed I say!!! :D
 

Chone

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Aug 11, 2006
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Gigs? Pshaw.

Our Xbox daddy Bill Gates said that "640K of memory should be enough for anybody", so Bizzare should be ashamed...ashamed I say!!! :D
That is like the most cliche joke ever... its not funny anymore.

Now I don't get this, they can fit games like Crysis and Unreal Tournament 2007 on DVD9 and they can't fit a racing game on it? No one will argue that Crysis has better graphics than anything out there and yet it barely needs a dual layer dvd :rolleyes:
 

GFLPraxis

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Mar 17, 2004
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Multidisc for a racing game? Heavens no.

I find it very hard to believe, unless these are ungodly sized textures. All a racing game consists of is track data (maps and textures), audio, a physics engine and UI. There's no story so no cutscenes, no giant worlds? I'm now expecting this game to have more tracks than F-Zero GX and I hope Bizarre don't disappoint.

That said if it came down to it I'd still pick the 360 version. Everything else aside - only 1 system has Live. No amount of night/day cycles will change that.
PGR4 has a very large number of highly detailed buildings. Each building has very high-res textures for each wall. Extremely detailed environments.
 

Coded-Dude

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Guys....this is not some multi-platform game/team we are talking about here. PGR was a launch XBOX game, PGR3 was a launch 360 game.
(2 and 4 are their respective follow ups for each console)

It has only been developed exclusively on DVD for the XBOX platform. If there is one thing these guys know, its XBOX development.
(considering the praise PGR gets in the gaming community)

This is not like some 3rd party dev that was strictly PS/Ninty centric decided to jump over and make an XBOX game.....they have been making XBOX games from the start.


Games like Crysis and UT have lots of compressed data that gets unloaded to the HDD.
(which can't be done on the 360, without making the game unplayable for some)
 

Coded-Dude

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UT is, Crysis is still up in the air.....correct?

Either way I don't expect either console version to match the PC version.
Except of course the PS3 is getting mods for UT, that are interchangeable with the PC version
(which is probably due to it having HDD)
 

Haoshiro

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Feb 9, 2006
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That seems dumb, if they used good dynamic lighting they dont need new textures, maybe new shaders...

What is BC in, the stone age?
 

MRU

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PGR4 has a very large number of highly detailed buildings. Each building has very high-res textures for each wall. Extremely detailed environments.
They aren't 'THAT' high res. Assuming that the textures have to fit in memory and there isn't that many courses / location changes then I truly find it hard to believe.

PGR3 wasnt that great graphically, and the textures on the buildings and people were not that great up close.

Are Bizzare Creations playing a financial leverage game ? Where they start to bad mouth M$ in the 1 area where there is a difference between the ps3 & 360 and hope that either M$ stumps up more money to keep them happy, and if that doesnt work - open the door for some future ps3 spin off.

Remember PGR as an IP is owned by the publisher Microsoft, not the developer.






edit..... further expansion

IF !! and that's a big IF there comes a time this generation that DVD-DL would not hold the game data, I expect M$ to allow developers to have games which insist on the HDD to play.

After all they already expect users in Europe to have 60hz sets for most games, and Backwards Compatability requires the HDD too - so it's not that out of the question.

I can envision a time where the premium 360 will replace the core machine completely as the low end SKU and the Elite will become available in white and replace the current premium.

Will it isolate some gamers. Yes it may, but the reality is that most people with cores without a HDD will probably go out and buy a new HDD anyway which then generates more $$$ for M$