Black friday, Apple and Cheaper Macs

Discussion in 'Apple, Inc and Tech Industry' started by ericinboston, Nov 26, 2008.

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  1. ericinboston macrumors 68000

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    #1
    Oh Boy! 8% off!! Gee whiz I just gotta run out and get that **CRAZY** 8% off! And golly if I buy the highest end mac pro I get 4% off! Wow! Where do I sign up?!

    Apple has set their own prices since the dawn of time. I liken Apple to buying any car at full sticker price.

    Times are REALLY pretty rough right now and I thought we would see a 20% off deal...I mean, come on, it's only 1 day...

    Apple makes good products, but their prices are so inflated...even on their CRAZY BLACK FRIDAY DISCOUNT DAY. What a joke.

    There have been numerous reports that Apple **NEEDS** to start marketing its computers (the iPod gravy train has run out Appple) to the 90% of us who want a decent computer at sub $1000 prices. Looks like Apple is poised to pull another "early 90s" when they almost went out of business because .0001% of the world was buying their computers.

    Don't get me wrong...I like Apple's computers and Apple as a company...but the iPod gravy train that saved the company from bankruptcy has run dry. Either Apple needs to begin selling more affordable computers or Apple will be hurting very very soon.

    -Eric
     
  2. Tallest Skil macrumors P6

    Tallest Skil

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    #2
    Over a billion dollars in profit every quarter, and they're sitting on 25 billion.

    Hurting. Right.
     
  3. Lyddiegal macrumors newbie

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    #3
    Even though it may not be a very large discount in comparison to the cost, it is still a discount. And since i'm planning on buying a computer, I'd like to save $100 or so, because I can think of lots of other things I would spend $100 on.

    Your statement reminds me of those old collect call commercials where a dollar is on the ground and no one wants to pick it up because one dollar is considered worthless.

    And sure, apples computers may be a bit more than their competitors, but I feel it is worth it. I purchased an iMac in 2001 that is still being used everyday, and sure it's a bit slow now, but it rivals my friends 6 month old bottom of the line PC laptop - which i think says a lot about a nearly 8 year old computer.
     
  4. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #4
    Yes...I am right...if you read my sentence...I said START HURTING SOON.

    I'm not going to bash Apple left and right but history is repeating itself. iPods are the ONLY reason was able to survive in 2001 when every other computer company was doing just fine. Now iPods have saturated the MP3 market (and iPod market). I love my iPod but the "new" iPods that came out a few months ago were such a disappointment.

    Anyway, Apple better start selling sub $1000 desktop computers soon or they will be right back in the poor house by end of 2011. Especially given today's GLOBAL economy meltdown. Unless of course Apple wants to be a company selling $150 music players and $30 leather cases.
     
  5. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #5

    I agree that a discount is a discount...I would take it *IF I HAD TO BUY*. But what I'm stating is that Apple could have done much better CONSIDERING the economic troubles we are in. I guess Apple would rather sell 10 units at 8% off rather than 20 units at 15% off (or higher discount). Whatever. Not my loss. I don't have to buy...I would *LIKE* to buy (an Apple) but you know what, I can wait longer...the economy is rough, our family holiday budget is pretty tight, and although I/we like Apple, I would have no problem spending a lot less if we just wait a few more months for (hopefully) cheaper prices and newer models.

    Oh, and yes, I have plenty of computers that have lasted 8+ years...my old Apple //e lasted 12 years...my mom's desktop is now 10 years old. One of my numerous Dell desktops is 8 years old. My Mac Mini is a few years old.

    Just because a "computer" is still running after 5,9, 12, 20 years doesn't mean it's necessarily useful. :) Please don't try to convince me that your 8 year old iMac is still bleeding edge and allowing you to do killer movie editing and dvd authoring compared to a new computer today.

    Oh, and come on...you want to compare a 8 year old DESKTOP to a bottom of the barrel, hunk of junk LAPTOP? You're not even comparing bananas to oranges...you're comparing oranges to turkey. Why don't you give us some specs before you run your mouth like that? I have a fully decked out, 1 year old quad core Intel box with 4gig ram, 512MB vid card, and 2TBs of SATA hard drive space (about $800 at time without monitor)...it will easily beat any cheap laptop that comes out over the next 4-8 years unless everything goes Solid State and the new chips are quantum computing. You are likely comparing an iMac with a SATA drive, 1-3gig of RAM with a hunk of junk laptop with 512MB of RAM, onboard 64MB vid card for $399 from HP or Gateway. Jeeeeez. One of my 6 year old Dells still easily runs circles around a $600 laptop these days.
     
  6. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #6
    That's what GM said. Ditto for AIG. Circuit City, too.

    All companies are vulnerable.

    Again, I just hope that Apple gets off their lazy a** and launches an affordable line of desktops....like they had in the mid 90s with the Quadras.

    Minis are nice but way overpriced and you are nickel and dimed on everything. Pros are just ludicrously priced for the 90% of us who like desktops.

    Apple...if you are reading....give me an Apple Desktop for $800 that compares with a Dell $600 desktop (quad processor, 3-6gig ram, 650GB hard drive and 19" monitor) and I'll buy 2 tomorrow.
     
  7. Drag'nGT macrumors 68000

    Drag'nGT

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    #7
    Not entirely true. I agree they need to come down below the $1000 price tag but I'm only thinking the MB @ $899 and MBP @ $1599. The MBP doesn't deserve the $1000 jump in price. Basically, Apple has gotten a lot of new customers from the Vista fiasco but they could gain that many more and snow ball the growth by being a bit more aggressive and conceding an extra $100-300 so the customer base grows.

    When I worked computers @ BB people would easily add another $200 on to their PC price putting a 13-14" HP up to $1000 or so. The 15-17" model can also start around $1300 and the extras put it at $1500.

    If Apple pushed BB and put more Mac resets into their stores they would steal about 10-20% of the daily business from the PCs. Once a customer sees the price tag is really equal to their PC... they usually opt for the Mac.
     
  8. gkarris macrumors 604

    gkarris

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    #8
    LOL....

    With that config, you are NOT Apple's target customer. Go to Dell and watch Apple with Steve Jobs at the helm sail away on its Blue Ocean... :eek:
     
  9. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #9
    huh? This is exactly my point. I am the NEW APPLE customer. The days of selling $2500+ Mac Pros to Joe Desktop are gone. Joe DESKTOP wants a desktop. Currently the offerings from Apple are $1200+ iMacs. We want something sub-$1000 which the "PC" industry has been doing for almost 10 years.

    You are right...I may not be Apple's target DESKTOP consumer at this given second in time...Apple is targeting people who are willing to shell out essentially $1500 for a desktop when a $600, $800, or $1000 one is just fine. I don't need the gimmicks that the iMac has a built in vid cam...I'm never gonna use it....or that it's essentially a laptop turned vertically...or that the user experience is prettier. Apple is making a lot of money on their computers which is great...but Business 101 tells you that only a certain percentage of a given population can afford a product of X dollars. Considering that Apple is the most expensive "brand" on the block, Apple needs to offer a "new line" that is cheaper.


    If you have been reading the news in 2008 then you should have seen the numerous articles about Apple stating they NEED to TARGET new clientelle...that would be the 90% of us out here that haven't bought Mac because of a main reason: price.

    Let's not get into the PC vs. Mac debate. I have both Macs and PCs and both platforms work wonderfully for everyday dekstop use: music, web, dvd authoring, cd ripping, MS Office stuff, games, etc.

    Apple has acknowledged they need to target a new audience, the press has identified this action, and the consumers are waiting for the action. When is it going to happen? My guess is summer 2010.
     
  10. Mindflux macrumors 68000

    Mindflux

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    #10
    When Apple starts subsidizing cost by including AOL discs and free AV trials preloaded, etc. You'll see lower cost machines. This is how Dell, HP, Gateway, Acer, Toshiba, Compaq, eMachines etc get their costs lower.

    I was just rooting through my old Inspiron 8100 box and fond a Works trial disc and AOL trial disc. Farking subsidizing!
     
  11. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #11
    Subsidizing?! You're not serious are you? Where you have you been living the past 10 years? And oh, my Mac mini came with MS Office trialware (but I bet you will not blame Apple on that). It also came with some other crap that I have no use for...some ISP junk...some Apple online backup crapola. Whatever.

    Yes, back in the 90s and into the early 2000s PCs shipped (and some still do) with trialware...AOL or ISPs or whatever. But in the past 5-7 years all that stuff is optional...you just build the machine online and tell it you don't want it. the worst I've ever gotten on a pc was back in the late 90s it came with AOL and Javanet ISPs (this was before high speed internet was available) and MS Works. That's it. Maybe other people got a stupid game or something but when you turn on your computer you have to answer YES or NO if you want it installed (the junk comes PARTIALLY installed...just enough to ask you if you want to complete the installation and use it). There's always an option to uninstall it.

    You definitely have no idea how PCs are truly sold and why they've been cheaper than Apples since the very very beginning...it's called competition. Parts is parts in this world...rip apart a Mac and you will find the same intel chips, ram chips, etc. that you will find in the non-Mac world. Dell, HP, Toshiba, Gateway, Lenovo, and others in the PC world have been competing since the dawn of the PC...that's why the PC stuff is cheaper. Those vendors do NOT make the parts...they buy them just like Apple (I bet you thought Apple makes all their parts) at huge volumes. In the Apple world, it's Apple or nothing on all fronts. The price is the price. The Return Policy is the policy. The option to add new features or fix bugs or the like is all at the sole discretion of Apple...hardware and software mind you. Not so in a true competitive and open market like the PC world.

    Yes, you are correct in that some trialware is "subsidizing" a bit of a price...maybe $20-$80...not the hundreds you imply.

    It still amazes me that the Mac Biggots of the world have absolutely no idea how things are run in a non-Apple world.

    It amazes me how quickly these forum threads move from a "this discount stinks" topic to a "Macs are better than everything else in the world" topic. Some of you still don't seem to be able to read English...I like Macs...I like PCs. Let me state again that I feel the 4%-8% discount that Apple is giving on A)This one day event, B)This terrible economy, and C)It's Black Friday is a joke. Someone asked earlier if Amazon gives discounts all year on Apple machines and I believe the answer is yes...nothing big...but 1%-10%...I don't shop Amazon every day for Macs so don't ask me to prove my 10% discount at Amazon...I have seen such "steep" 10% discounts on Apple machines at Amazon.
     
  12. dal20402 macrumors 6502

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    #12
    Wrong. Only Sony and Lenovo offer a no-trialware option; that option is less than a year old for both manufacturers; and it's only available on certain business-focused models.

    Wrong again. There is never an option to uninstall it. Your choices are to use Add/Remove Programs and then try to deal with the leftover files and registry entries you can't get to that way, or to reinstall Windows using your own disc and then reinstall all your drivers.

    Your theory of how Apple needs to compete is also wrong. Apple can't compete with Dell on cost. That's not its business model. Apple competes on two things: superior design and superior user experience.

    An $800 commodity box does not allow Apple to distinguish itself in either respect. It will be designed just like any other commodity box (remember the Power Mac 4400?), with the same ugly case and the same inelegant innards. So Apple would be selling a more expensive box with no advantages over the competition. Dumb.

    It's a huge inconvenience for geeks who use OS X that Apple does not sell OS X-compatible commodity desktops, but to do so would be an absolutely boneheaded business move for Apple.

    I do think they could sell a $1500 SFF desktop with a beautiful case and relatively high-end desktop components to slot in below the Mac Pro, but I would guess they have done the math and calculated that they would lose more money from cannibalizing Mac Pro sales than they would gain from extra buyers of such a desktop.
     
  13. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #13
    You are wrong...I have been buying Dells and Lenovos for years...it has been an option FAR LONGER than 1 year.

    WTF?! You are on crack! But I should have expected a reply from a total Apple Biggot speaking about stuff you have no idea about. In your eyes every "uninstall" in the PC world involved 3 packs of cigarettes, 7 cans of Red Bull, a Redial button for Suicide Prevention, and a hammer. In fact all you have to do is go to Add/Remove programs and a few clicks later you are done. No leftover files (unless you unplug your pc during the uninstall). Oh, but I'm sure 100.00000% of every uninstall in the Apple world is perfect.

    Everything you just mentioned regarding an uninstall is pure trash talk.

    How ignorant are you?
     
  14. ltldrummerboy macrumors 68000

    ltldrummerboy

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    #14
    ^
    He may be exaggerating, but I've uninstalled programs from Add/Remove Programs and it leaves stuff behind. How about a happy medium somewhere in between your opinions? Hooray, everyone agrees!
     
  15. Tallest Skil macrumors P6

    Tallest Skil

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    #15
    Uninstalling Microsoft programs in Vista Ultimate in Boot Camp has always been pointless. Oh, sure, the Add/Remove programs thing deletes them, right... but every time I start the OS up again, they're back.

    I have to delete the files from within OS X using NTFS read/write software.

    So, no, it doesn't work for some applications.
     
  16. Mindflux macrumors 68000

    Mindflux

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    #16
    I guess you better call Dell and ask them to refund my time and trouble for reloading my machine chalked full of Trialware from 2002. Include the AOL discs and other PHYSICAL trialware installers I received and you're going to tell me that hasn't happened since the 90s?

    Sony and Lenovo offer to omit these these things for a fee. This (as another user put it) are new as of the last year. Good luck with that, by the way.

    I guess this article is 10 years old, right?

    http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/02/26/sony-to-tone-down-the-bloatware-and-trialware/

    No, try 8 months old.

    Here you can see Sony wanted $50 USD to not install the trialware on your machine from the factory, again from this year.

    http://news.digitaltrends.com/news-article/16131/sony-charging-50-to-leave-out-trialware
     
  17. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #17
    Very well said. You know where I stand on hopeful new Apple machines. :) I think if Apple wants to break the 15% or 20% Marketshare for non-business machines, Apple will need to make changes on their computer pricing. I think the answer to "why change" is that who wants to run a company that is just mediocre when it can try to be king? I have a feeling Apple shareholders will push Apple to attempt to expand into the sub $1000 market with a *decent* desktop and likely a laptop.
     
  18. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #18
    First, who in their right mind buys a Sony? Seriously. I'm not joking. Your hyperlinks are fine but they only talk about 1 vendor-Sony. Sony is probably the most expensive pc on the market...you get a pretty machine with typically horrible and proprietary parts. I know this for a fact...I've repaired and attempted to upgrade several when I was a contractor.

    You are also talking about trialware from 2002. I don't have the specifics about what makes/models/vendors/promotions you bought and when and where. I'm sure you had trialware just like I did. But it's not like it's Spyware where I have windows popping up all over the place every minute. Trialware simply means that a program is loaded on your computer...find it in your Start Menu or on your desktop. Don't wanna uninstall it?...just delete the stupid icons and/or folders. Wanna uninstall it?...use Add/Remove. Wanna be paranoid?...back up your pc before you uninstall. Still mad about all this?...call Microsoft and nicely ask for a FREE (yes, they will give it to you for free) copy of Windows direct from MS without all the stuff that your vendor installed. Yes, there is a slight possibility that you will need to download an updated driver from your Vendor site but big deal...or just use your OEM Windows cd to get the driver. Point is...there are a lot of options and it's nowhere as near as people make it out to be. Apple includes trialware. So do the PC vendors. I think 90% of the consumers hate trialware being loaded but hey, it's basically paid advertising. I don't scream at the postman for giving me 9 AOL cds a week. Nor do I complain to my (back in the day before everything was on the web) computing magazines to stop including cds. What about all those stupid magazine inserts I get with Time, Newsweek, Discover, and Scientific American? :)

    We've all have uninstall nightmares...on Apple and PC land...you can only blame the manufacturer of the software you are trying to uninstall if it is a true nightmare. Sure, you can try to blame the vendor that sold you the computer but that's typically a pointless fight.

    Just to be complete, I hate Vista. Will never use it. I've been on XP since it's inception and truly love it. Windows 2000 wasn't bad beforehand. Whatever MS' next Windows will be called will also be under great scrutiny from me and other PCers...XP, in the pc world, is fantastic. I'm sure someone will chime in here and give 2 reasons why XP stinks or how Mac OS is superior or why the Atari 800 is better. :)
     
  19. Mindflux macrumors 68000

    Mindflux

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    #19

    Yes, the articles only cover Sony, but the truth of the matter is they're one of the few that have done this. I've bought numerous Dells for our office, and aside from being able to omit works trials and some of the other items, I still get other pre-loaded trialware/bloatware that I cannot select for removal.

    With any PC, the first thing I do is format the whole thing and load Windows fresh, with no bloatware/trialware to be found. Even uninstalling it leaves remnants behind in the registry and hard disk. No thanks, I didn't want it in the first place.
     
  20. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #20
    Ok....

    1)If you are buying pcs for your work environment, typically Dell sells you business machines that, among other things, come without trialware...or at least minimilize it. I'm not saying you should spend money to remove trialware but Dell knows that IT organizations want to get up and running as fast as possible AND NOT GIVE USERS a choice of clicking around on trialware.

    2)Either you didn't include details or you are lying about your uninstall process and reinstall process of Windows. Let me clarfiy: When you buy any PC that comes with Windows, you are buying an OEM version of Windows...which means that Dell, for example, has the licensing privilege to install crap on Windows and re-distribute that. So....if you nuke your brand new Dell and grab the Dell Windows cd and reinstall, you are going to get the exact same thing as you got when you first powered up your pc. So either you are installing from a RETAIL copy of Windows (which has no OEM trialware) or you are lying about install/uninstall from OEM cds. I've worked in IT since 1993 and have done quite literally thousands of Windows installs/reinstalls...both consumer and server grade stuff.

    3)I agree...I do not want it in the first place. Just because something is left in the Windows Registry does not mean at all that the software is still there, lurking, waiting to get you when you fall asleep. 9 times out of 10 it's "still there" so that if you attempt to install it again, it will revert to the old settings or whatever. Take 30-day trial programs from Adobe or Microsoft...when they expire, you can't use them. So you uninstall. If you try to install the trialware again and use it (so you don't have to pay) the program won't launch because there is either a Key in the Registry or a bit somewhere written to the hard drive. Apple's OS offers the same thing. I have things allllllll over my registry from uninstalls. It's the way the software developers write the software. It's not me. It's not you. Don't blame Microsoft. Don't blame Dell. Blame the software vendor. Apple seems to "allow" this same practice because my Mac Mini freaked out during the uninstall of the MS Office trialware...I had to reinstall everything. I was pretty mad at that. I could have blamed Apple but I knew that Apple didn't write the uninstall script.
     
  21. Mindflux macrumors 68000

    Mindflux

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    #21

    These aren't restore disks, this is an OEM windows disc that installs nothing but Windows (Yes, they are Dell provided). You claim to know all the facts yet your 'facts' are incorrect. There was a day when 'restore' disks would load everything (Windows, drivers, trialware etc) but I've not seen them included on a corporate Dell system in quite some time. I've probably been at this longer than you've been alive, or close to it.

    I could only *WISH* Corporate machines from Dell came without the Trialware. I would't have to spend on average 2 hours per new machine reloading and setting up our applications. I could merely install the required Apps, join the domain and away I go. Do you think I like spending my time undoing **** I shouldn't need to be messing with in the first place?


    I'll also note my Inspiron 8100, which is a CONSUMER LAPTOP just got reloaded with the XP Home disc supplied by Dell. Not a SINGLE DROP OF TRIALWARE WAS INSTALLED FROM IT. Had I plugged in the AOL disc, the Works disc and everything else that came with it I could have re-installed it all.. but that's not what I was after. This machine is 6 years old, so don't claim it 'must be something new that I am unware of'
     
  22. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #22
    Gimme a break. You've "been at this" longer then me eh? Hmmm...let's throw some figures out here...my first experience with MS Windows was WFW 3.11 back in 1992 if I remember correctly. In 1994 I worked for Microsoft and was part of the Windows95 Tech Support beta team...Win95 launched in August 2004. In 2005 I began my official title of Network Admin which also required me to do tons of end user and server installs of Windows environments. I've been alive for 38+ years...almost 39. So you're saying that you've been doing computer installations for 30+ years. Yeah, right. Maybe VAX/VMS.

    Maybe I am slightly wrong about what cd is shipped with each vendor. I already stated that I don't have a mental history of every possible combination of everything that has been shipped.

    I have seen numerous "shipments" from Dell...some are literally just Windows cds and then a 2nd cd with all the drivers. Neither of those cds was considered a "reinstall" because you had to spend 1-2 hours installing and configuring Windows (just like you would if you bought the Retail version at Staples). Other shipping options I have seen from Dell are Windows reinstallation cds that yes, had all the trialware on it. You pop the cd in, power up the pc, a few clicks here and there and Windows is rolling just like when you powered it on the first time...brand new Windows with all the trialware. Another option that has been around the past few years with Dell are hidden partitions...you do not get any physical Windows cd...if your computer dies you call Dell and they tell you the crazy keystroke when booting and you are taken to a Ghost utility which reverts your machine back to when you first powered on. For awhile in 2007 Dell basically stopped giving cds and so many people complained that now they do.


    So there are a few options from Dell over the years. I'm sure there are more. I'm sure other PC vendors have tried similar or other tactics.

    You're messing with the wrong person about facts and how to do things. I'm not going to sit here and has a pissing match on how big your IT dept is vs. mine or how many installs you've done on Win95 vs. NT 3.51 vs. 2003 Server or how old you are vs. myself.

    Get over it. If you can't figure out how to uninstall trialware in under 10 minutes then you have big problems. And if you are manually setting up every computer from scratch in your IT dept then you have even bigger problems than trialware. Spend the $49 on Norton Ghost and save yourself a lot of time. But oh, I forgot, you have a witty remark about how you "already did that" and it's just not right for you.
     
  23. milo macrumors 604

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    #23
    What is all this crap? This thread is supposed to be about the friday sales, and it's full of garbage about mac versus pc and how apple sucks and is going to go out of business? Troll elsewhere, please.
     
  24. ericinboston thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #24
    Milo...why don't you start from Page 1 of this thread and read on. I love how you claim that I said Apple sucks and is going out of business.

    Your "trolling" comment should be to any/all who continue this discussion and have been involved in this sub-topic.
     
  25. iMacmatician macrumors 601

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    #25
    August 1995, unless you're talking about something else.

    You included.
     
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