Bloomberg: Apple's First Arm Mac to Launch by 2021 With 12-Core Processor

[MikeZTM]

I am not going to argue how easy or not easy it is currently to move an app from x86 to ARM. In fact, I think anyone saying it is easy would not argue it would be easier if iPadOS and macOS was both running on ARM.

However, what app's are you using that you think will not run on ARM? I'm actually curious. Must be something that demands more power the Amazon's Web Server's.

And game? I honestly don't get why anyone buys a Mac if their main purpose is to game. Mac's hardware is not a very good gaming machine. Sure, I play the occasional game but if I couldn't I'd still own my Macbook and my iMac.

But then again I have also never been a huge PC gamer period. But if I were, I would build my own machine and run Windows.

It will not be any easier if iPadOS and macOS both running on ARM. CPU doesn't matter at all.
Apple intentionally make Mac Catalyst not compatible with iOS to push developer to make their app optimized for laptop and desktop.

PS: I would like to build my next gamming PC using ARM CPU.

 

[cmaier]

Implied in my answer was x86 CPU. Back when Sony and MS started with their consoles, ARM was not an option performance wise and it's not a good option today.

Except Arm is used in consoles. So I am not getting your point.

 

[MikeZTM]

Implied in my answer was x86 CPU. Back when Sony and MS started with their consoles, ARM was not an option performance wise and it's not a good option today.

Yet ARM answering the question "Can it run Crysis" with a YES.
(with 2015 arm chip at 20nm and 15W TDP)

 

[futureisfilm]

It will not be any easier if iPadOS and macOS both running on ARM. CPU doesn't matter at all.
Apple intentionally make Mac Catalyst not compatible with iOS to push developer to make their app optimized for laptop and desktop.

PS: I would like to build my next gaming PC using ARM CPU.

Again, I am not a software developer. This comment you are quoting isn't really about easy or not easy.

But. iOS is an offshoot of OS X. macOS is OS X. If Apple has a Mac using ARM, and an iPad Pro using ARM, then the only thing that a developer will need to attend with is the UI differences. And I believe that is why mouse support has been vastly improved on the iPad.

But I mean I can be completely wrong here. I haven't looked at the code of OS X and iOS. I know from what Jobs said when the iPhone was announced that the iPhone "runs OS X" and then they eventually named that iOS. But OS X is also based off of Unix.But Unix and OS X are two different Operating Systems. And just because one is based off the other doesn't mean they are the same. I know this. But this is also why I don't like making these arguments. I am not a developer.

 

[Nugget]

I am sorry. I don't think I have made myself clear.

No worries, what you said here makes sense. I'm sure the confusion was on my end. Cheers!

 

[futureisfilm]

Implied in my answer was x86 CPU. Back when Sony and MS started with their consoles, ARM was not an option performance wise and it's not a good option today.

But it was on the table for Microsoft. Obviously AMD won out, but that was probably more because of pricing. But who knows the reason besides Microsoft?

 

[Gerdi]

Again, I am not a software developer. This comment you are quoting isn't really about easy or not easy.

But. iOS is an offshoot of OS X. macOS is OS X. If Apple has a Mac using ARM, and an iPad Pro using ARM, then the only thing that a developer will need to attend with is the UI differences. And I believe that is why mouse support has been vastly improved on the iPad.

Still wrong. From development point of view the differences in CPU architecture are close to irrelevant. Only the differences in the runtime API do matter - and in this regards there are lots of differences between iOS and MacOS. It neither hurts nor helps if both platforms using the same CPU archticture from developer perspective.

 

[MikeZTM]

Again, I am not a software developer. This comment you are quoting isn't really about easy or not easy.

But. iOS is an offshoot of OS X. macOS is OS X. If Apple has a Mac using ARM, and an iPad Pro using ARM, then the only thing that a developer will need to attend with is the UI differences. And I believe that is why mouse support has been vastly improved on the iPad.

But I mean I can be completely wrong here. I haven't looked at the code of OS X and iOS. I know from what Jobs said when the iPhone was announced that the iPhone "runs OS X" and then they eventually named that iOS. But OS X is also based off of Unix.But Unix and OS X are two different Operating Systems. And just because one is based off the other doesn't mean they are the same. I know this. But this is also why I don't like making these arguments. I am not a developer.

Mouse support on iPad is totally different than Mac. It is amazing and fit touch interface really well.

It is always just UI difference between iOS and macOS.
We use AppKit + Cocoa on macOS and UIKit + Cocoa Touch on iOS. Logic code is always shared between iOS and macOS and after the 64bit change they are almost 100% compatible already.

Mac Catalyst is UIKit running on macOS so we can easily port our iOS UI code to macOS.

You will see here CPU difference is totally hidden from developer. A developer does not need to know what CPU they are using. iOS app could run on x86 in iOS simulator since beginning.

If apple release a totally new CPU for Mac that's not ARM it's exactly the same for app developer.
One checkbox and some small fix.

 

[endlessike]

And game? I honestly don't get why anyone buys a Mac if their main purpose is to game. Mac's hardware is not a very good gaming machine. Sure, I play the occasional game but if I couldn't I'd still own my Macbook and my iMac.

But then again I have also never been a huge PC gamer period. But if I were, I would build my own machine and run Windows.

it’s not that difficult to “get” that people who enjoy pc gaming from time to time may also prefer macos for any number of reasons AND don’t want multiple computers clogging up their space.

And adding an eGPU to a mac mini or a macbook to game is cost competitive to building a separate windows gaming machine, anyway.

 

[futureisfilm]

Mouse support on iPad is totally different than Mac. It is amazing and fit touch interface really well.

It is always just UI difference between iOS and macOS.
We use AppKit + Cocoa on macOS and UIKit + Cocoa Touch on iOS. Logic code is always shared between iOS and macOS and after the 64bit change they are almost 100% compatible already.

Mac Catalyst is UIKit running on macOS so we can easily port our iOS UI code to macOS.

You will see here CPU difference is totally hidden from developer. A developer does not need to know what CPU they are using. iOS app could run on x86 in iOS simulator since beginning.

If apple release a totally new CPU for Mac that's not ARM it's exactly the same for app developer.
One checkbox and some small fix.

yes, I know mouse support is different. Just like touch interface is different then mouse and keyboard.
It’s not about replicating the Mac with an iPad. It’s about making it sing on iPad. And there is no way to have uniform in design if they keep the paradigms different.
I may not know much about coding. But I do know about design. Apple isn’t Microsoft. They don’t just through a touchscreen on a computer and call it a day. They rethink how a mouse and keyboard can work on an iPad and yet still feel familiar.

 

[futureisfilm]

Still wrong. From development point of view the differences in CPU architecture are close to irrelevant. Only the differences in the runtime API do matter - and in this regards there are lots of differences between iOS and MacOS. It neither hurts nor helps if both platforms using the same CPU archticture from developer perspective.

Okay, I am wrong. That’s fine.

Let’s just go along with what you and Mike are saying. I can’t either prove or disprove this information.
It doesn’t invalidate the fact that Apple has been using the iPad Pro line to entice Mac developers like Adobe to make dedicated iOS (and now iPadOS) software. That they have been using this to make more powerful ARM chips and testing how developers would use it.
It also doesn’t invalidate that Apple has been adding iOS features to the Mac for years (the App Launcher, just to name one). And that wasn’t a one way street. Mac features have moved to the iPad (support for external drives, just to name one).
Apple has been preparing for this for a long time. Just like they had every OS X complied for x86 and PowerPC since day one of OS X. They have been building up to this moment.
And if it’s so easy to port apps over, then great! No one will be left behind. Every application will run on ARM Mac just as well as they do on Intel Mac.

 

[amgff84]

This is going to be the death of the Mac computers as a whole. Arm Macs won’t have any compatability with any of the software available until the software developers update their software and most will be left behind. Microsoft tried to transition to ARM with the Surface Pro X and Windows 10 on ARM has been a failure. I expect this to fail as well, especially since ARM will probably not have the same performance for all tasks compared to X86-64.

I have to agree. Plus, who is going to buy an ARM mac pro?

 

[ssgbryan]

I have to agree. Plus, who is going to buy an ARM mac pro?

1. People who are trapped in the OSX ecosystem.
2. People that are aggressively unwilling to leave OSX.

For me, it was easier to transition from OSX to Windows. More performance for less money, not to mention more software availability. I truly did not realize how far behind I was by sticking with OSX.

The idea of going with version 1 hardware and version 1 software at the same time is insane as far as I am concerned. Especially when one looks at how the "fit and finish" of apple products have slipped over the past decade.

 

[Macbookprodude]

You can not compare what Microsoft is trying to do, and what Apple will be doing.

Microsoft, from my understanding, has never transitioned from one type of processor to another. They have always supported Intel, and they will always support x86 processors. Can you imagine Microsoft telling developers and customers "Sorry, you can't use x86 anymore." That isn't ever going to happen.

Apple on the other hand will tell developer's and it's customers "You will not be using x86 any more."

And if you believe that Apple will die when they do this, then you don't really know the history here. Apple has done this not once -- but twice. This will be the third time Apple switched from one processor type to another. Each time, there may have been bumps in the road but Apple did not die. Developer's did not get left behind. They moved their software.

And Apple has been preparing developer's for this ever since they released the iPad Pro. Every tech writer and tech YouTuber asked "Who is the iPad Pro for?" But they were asking the wrong people. They kept asking that question as a customer. However, it never occurred to them that this was for developer's. Why do you think Adobe has put Photoshop on the iPadOS? Sure, it's not perfect. But they now have their code on iPadOS -- which is OS X on ARM. If you need a refresher, rewatch Jobs introduce the iPhone. He said they put the most advance OS on the iPhone. OS X. So OS X has been compatible on ARM since even back then. And when Apple released the iPad Pro -- and updated it with iPadOS -- and most recently add amazing mouse and keyboard control -- they aren't doing this because customer's asked for it.

No, they are doing this because they envision the iPad/iPad Pro being Apple's two-in-one competing with Surface. And that can't happen if the Mac and iPadOS don't share the same base code and same app's. And unlike the last two times, where Apple had to convince people to buy their new computers ... this time Apple will be able to say to developers "Your apps will work on the iPad and the new Macs. You have tons of customers who can buy your apps." This will give incentives to developers to bring their apps over.
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I am a little confused by this. If you have been using OS X since day one for work, then you have been doing work without x86. I understand it might take time to get your specific apps ported over (might not be as long as you think) but Apple is pumping out great Intel laptops right now. Buy one in 2020 and it'll be supported for at least 3 years. Maybe even longer. I have a 2017 MacBook Pro and i love it. I expect it to be supported to 2023 at least.

And if you look at Apple's history, in 2006 they released the first Intel Mac's. in 2009 they released the last version of OS X that supported PowerPC. And by that time, virtually every developer out there will have moved over their app's to the new processor's and new macOS ARM.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Apple rebrands iPadOS and macOS under a new name. Maybe Mac OS 11?

First we need to get past this COVID19 crap first.

 

[1madman1]

ARM CPUs resulting in 100% incompatiblity with literally every application I use apart from what's built in? DO NOT WANT.

 

[cmaier]

ARM CPUs resulting in 100% incompatiblity with literally every application I use apart from what's built in? DO NOT WANT.

First, the report in bloomberg says apple is “working on” some method of running those.

But, second, it’s not incompatible with your applications. It‘s incompatible with your binaries. If those applications are still supported, it’s highly likely that Arm-binary versions will show up.

After all, it wasn’t that long ago that apple changed the OS to make it “incompatible with your applications.” When they switched to 64-bit-only, anything 32-bit went bye-bye. Luckily, most of the software you use was probably ported to 64-bit by the developers, which is actually a lot harder to do for the average app than it is to become Arm-compatible.

 

[ssgbryan]

Sure. That must be why Apple doesn’t use the same processor architecture as everyone else for mobile.

Oh, wait....

Different products. Folks that are OK with ARM are not exactly doing things that push a system.

Some of us have workflows that will take every CPU cycle, GPU cycle, and byte of RAM that we can throw at it and ask for more. I am not even a "professional" 3d artist. At the hobbyist level, we have people that have moved to threadripper systems - not professionals, but hobbyists. You would be amazed at how many of us own and maintain our own render farms. I don't see either the professional or hobbyist level of 3d software moving to ARM any time soon, if ever. We don't care about power efficiency - we care about raw computing power, and I don't see Apple providing that.

First, the report in bloomberg says apple is “working on” some method of running those.

But, second, it’s not incompatible with your applications. It‘s incompatible with your binaries. If those applications are still supported, it’s highly likely that Arm-binary versions will show up.

After all, it wasn’t that long ago that apple changed the OS to make it “incompatible with your applications.” When they switched to 64-bit-only, anything 32-bit went bye-bye. Luckily, most of the software you use was probably ported to 64-bit by the developers, which is actually a lot harder to do for the average app than it is to become Arm-compatible.

Are you willing to bet your business on "highly likely". We are talking about Apple - not a company that publishes road maps.

And this gives a lot of companies a reason to drop apple. They would be looking at 2 codebases for a small portion of their total sales.

 

[cmaier]

Different products. Folks that are OK with ARM are not exactly doing things that push a system.

Some of us have workflows that will take every CPU cycle, GPU cycle, and byte of RAM that we can throw at it and ask for more. I am not even a "professional" 3d artist. At the hobbyist level, we have people that have moved to threadripper systems - not professionals, but hobbyists. You would be amazed at how many of us own and maintain our own render farms. I don't see either the professional or hobbyist level of 3d software moving to ARM any time soon, if ever. We don't care about power efficiency - we care about raw computing power, and I don't see Apple providing that.



Are you willing to bet your business on "highly likely". We are talking about Apple - not a company that publishes road maps.

And this gives a lot of companies a reason to drop apple. They would be looking at 2 codebases for a small portion of their total sales.

I’m not telling anyone to bet businesses. Do what you want, or what you need to do.

But, a few years from now, you’ll see that most major software is available for Arm, in the mean time it was running fine via emulation, and it will be a lot of crying about nothing.

If the software you require survived the Great 32-bit Purge, it’ll likely survive this one, too (assuming the software company hasn’t abandoned it already after the 64-bit port).

 

[1madman1]

After all, it wasn’t that long ago that apple changed the OS to make it “incompatible with your applications.” When they switched to 64-bit-only, anything 32-bit went bye-bye.

Actually no, in my case the vast majority was not and never will be, hence why none of my three 10.15 compatible Macs are running it. In many cases the developers ended up leaving Apple.

My workplace has left behind the Mac apart from one non-network connected niche situation, and it sounds like I may be forced to as well after 17 years as my primary platform.

 

[cmaier]

Actually no, in my case the vast majority was not and never will be, hence why none of my three 10.15 compatible Macs are running it. In many cases the developers ended up leaving Apple.

My workplace has left behind the Mac apart from one non-network connected niche situation, and it sounds like I may be forced to as well after 17 years as my primary platform.

That‘s sad to hear. But my point was simply that if your software survived the transition to 64-bit, it likely will this time too.

And if it didn’t, then there’s no new harm to you caused by the switch to Arm that wasn’t already inflicted in the switch To 64-bit.

 

[PostApple2016BrainWash]

ARM CPUs resulting in 100% incompatiblity with literally every application I use apart from what's built in? DO NOT WANT.

It is not just about incompatibility issues and there is no good reason to completely abandon x86-Based Macs when ZEN 2-3 will be a major leap in core count and performance. However, Apple can still unveil ARM-Based Macs and refrain from dropping x86 hardware platform by continue producing a newer model with AMD.

 

[futureisfilm]

First we need to get past this COVID19 crap first.

Yeah, I actually wouldn’t doubt COVID-19 has slowed down Apple’s internal timeline on this.
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And this gives a lot of companies a reason to drop apple. They would be looking at 2 codebases for a small portion of their total sales.

Im not going to argue on the power side. Right now, we only have the specs of what will probably go in the Mac Mini and low end MacBook. Which obviously isn’t meant to replace the MacBook Pro or the Mac Pro.
(but, you are wrong that ARM can’t ever replace your x86 processors).

However, this is why I think Apple should leverage their iPadOS and make it the brother of macOS. Apple’s iPads out sell their Macs every year. Changing out the iPadOS App Store with the Mac App Store and allowing any app on the Mac run on the iPadOS will allow developers to have a huge user base from day one. And the App Store can weed out the older less powerful iPads on the more CPU heavy apps.

 

[futureisfilm]

It is not just about incompatibility issues and there is no good reason to completely abandon x86-Based Macs when ZEN 2-3 will be a major leap in core count and performance. However, Apple can still unveil ARM-Based Macs and refrain from dropping x86 hardware platform by continue producing a newer model with AMD.

If Apple where to do that, they wouldn’t switch to ARM. I don’t know why they aren’t choosing to go with AMD. I’ve always been an AMD fanboy. But if I had to guess, it’s because they like the control they have over the iPhones and iPads.

But again. ARM is powerful enough to be the CPU on Amazon’s AWS servers. They didn’t choose Intel or AMD. And Apple is one of the best at designing ARM chips. So I have full confidence they will make something more powerful then any Mac currently has.

 

[Zdigital2015]

Again, I am not a software developer. This comment you are quoting isn't really about easy or not easy.

But. iOS is an offshoot of OS X. macOS is OS X. If Apple has a Mac using ARM, and an iPad Pro using ARM, then the only thing that a developer will need to attend with is the UI differences. And I believe that is why mouse support has been vastly improved on the iPad.

But I mean I can be completely wrong here. I haven't looked at the code of OS X and iOS. I know from what Jobs said when the iPhone was announced that the iPhone "runs OS X" and then they eventually named that iOS. But OS X is also based off of Unix.But Unix and OS X are two different Operating Systems. And just because one is based off the other doesn't mean they are the same. I know this. But this is also why I don't like making these arguments. I am not a developer.

Unix (Bell Labs)—>Berkeley Systems Distribution—>NeXTstep—>MacOS X—>macOS/iOS

The underpinnings of MacOS X/macOS and iOS are both POSIX compliant Unix. The developer really only needs to worry about the specific APIs and Frameworks that are unique to macOS or iOS and the UI/UX conventions and the rest is abstracted away from the CPU architecture.

How this shakes out in the future with respect to Apple dropping use of the x86 architecture is still an open question and will be for 2-3 years after the first ARM/Arm Mac ships.

 

[amgff84]

1. People who are trapped in the OSX ecosystem.
2. People that are aggressively unwilling to leave OSX.

For me, it was easier to transition from OSX to Windows. More performance for less money, not to mention more software availability. I truly did not realize how far behind I was by sticking with OSX.

The idea of going with version 1 hardware and version 1 software at the same time is insane as far as I am concerned. Especially when one looks at how the "fit and finish" of apple products have slipped over the past decade.

I was thinking about going back to Windows... Maybe even Ubuntu, but probably Windows. Maybe even switching back to Android. Apple computers are no longer the most beautiful machines. While they may have their quality, Razer makes a beautifully designed aluminum laptop as well. I dunno, I guess we'll see. The switch might be harder for me because keychain is the best.