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I think a few things need to be cleared up:

-Fox is only supporting BluRay at the moment and will only change if it is a failure (which is very unlikely now). So no Star Wars on HD-DVD
-BluRay movies are now using H.264 and VC-1.
-BluRay is more expensive at the moment, but then prices do come down. I paid £160 for my DVD writer back in 2002 (which was cheap at the time), they can now be get for not much more than £20.
-BluRay is a lot more future proof, what happens when we move beyond current HD resolutions and use higher quality audio. Those 200GB disks are starting to look a bit more useful when you compare them to the 45GB of HD-DVD.
-You can't really compare BetaMax to BluRay. For one thing BetaMax only supported 90min tapes in the beginning, making it not the best choice for movies.
 
Blu-Ray is not backwards compatible (HDD is) so won't that cause a problem for existing media? No current DVDs will be able to play on the drives and neither will data CD/DVDs burned on conventional format.
 
Blu-Ray is not backwards compatible (HDD is) so won't that cause a problem for existing media? No current DVDs will be able to play on the drives and neither will data CD/DVDs burned on conventional format.
DVD/CDs should play in HD-DVD and BluRay drives just fine.
 
1. Hidden text is white not silver.
2. I know of Blu-Ray's magical 200 GB discs. Enjoy paying the price and burning that experimental bugger.
3. HD-DVD can triple layer to 45 GB.
1. I didn't mean to make it white. I meant to make it silver. Don't smartarse around, it was meant to be shown.
2 + 3. One word - futureproofing. A format that can expand to 200Gb is far more likely to stand the test of time than one that can triple layer to 45Gb.

last time I heard blu-ray was still using the Mpeg2 codec for encoding and decoding there media as for HD-DVD using a more advanced codec with far more superior video quality. for a person who says he knows his way around the formats and says that blu-Ray is the technically superior product it wouldnt seem so in this case. just because you can cram 50gigs of media onto a dual layer disc doesnt always mean you have the superior product.

both formats have there advantages and disadvantages I am along side other poeple with waiting before jumping to a conclusion on to which one I will be using, and the whole blu-ray thing just brings back memory of the whole betamax era and that was a sony controlled format and we see who won that war VHS
You'll note then, that last time you heard, HD-DVD was using MPEG2 as well. They've both moved on to superior codecs. I stand by what I said - nobody's proven me wrong, only proven themselves as lacking some facts that a few others have pointed out since I last posted. (See the quote below, for example).

Comparing this to the betamax era is not exactly clever - the only similarities are there are two formats fighting to win.

Blu-ray and HDDVD players handle the same 3 formats - MPEG2, MPEG4-AVC (h264), and VC1. So that shouldn't be a deciding factor.
(...)
There is some argument about which is the best quality when you have lots of bandwidth (eg >20Mbps). The nature of MPEG4 makes it great in low bandwidth situations as it is more aware of motion than MPEG2 and uses that in compression. Some research is saying that when you get high bandwidth, this same nature of compression leads to unnecessary blurring.

If you're right that Bluray producers are only using MPEG2 that may be a reason - or perhaps the producers are just being lazy. They've got more space than they need, and they're simply using it. It's also taking advantage of the systems they've refined over many years (and which are still used in HD FTA transmissions).

To be honest, if I was a producer in this situation I'd probably stick to MPEG2 as well right now. While H264 and all that are better compression, I do believe they're better suited to situations where there is less available space - such as on a PVP. In a next gen DVD situation, where you've got 50Gb+ to play with, where you've one 2hr movie to put on the disc, with a few extras, you've got plenty of space to play around with - so why not use the format that's likely to look a little better because it's not so compressed?

I run the TV station at my University - and I know it's not exactly on a par with some BBC productions and the suchlike, but from what I've seen when editing and exporting stuff, when you're dealing with high bandwidth content like HD, the less compression the better - and MPEG2 doesn't exactly look bad. In fact, on a machine that can handle the information, you'd struggle to notice a difference at all.
 
Comparing this to the betamax era is not exactly clever - the only similarities are there are two formats fighting to win.QUOTE]

the comparison I was making with the betamax era comment was that sony had the betamax and then the other format was VHS (which ended up winning in the long run). I stated this because someone earlier said something about sony controlled format which they have a poor track record with. I stopped looking into both of these formats when I found out the prices of the product involved with the release *Players, movies, and then how the studios would market there movies for release* I will do like I did when DVD first came out I will wait to see what happens and till the price comes down before making my move to Hi-Def movies. like I stated before I think both formats offer up perks and have there downfalls, I think blu-ray would be a better choice for its storage size but I see problems in the future if sony cant keep up with the demand of its production of parts for the blu-ray players and such. HD-DVD was first on the scene and I think it has a better picture but is lacking in the storage area I think that if it wants to compete with blu-ray in the volume factor they will have to get there compression process under control.


and on the codec side both formats are using Mpeg2,VC-1 and the H.264 codec, this was found off of wikipedia while searching and comparring both formats.
 
HD-DVD was first on the scene

I know HD-DVD came out first but are there any drives for recording HD-DVDs? I've seen shops offering Bluray-Recorders and Bluray recordable media, but not nothing like that for HD-DVD. Did I just look in the wrong places, or is Bluray ahead of HD-DVD in that respect?
 
I hope all the Blu-ray fans know that the 200GB disc is a fantasy. Sure, they can be made but you also need a player capable of recognizing 6 layers. They are having enough trouble producing drives that can read 2 blu-ray layers so 6 layers in not going to happen. Futhermore, the most popular Blu-ray player on the market, the PS3, will never read those discs.

250GB hard drives go for 60-70 bucks now so theres no point in paying whatever exhorbant price it's going to cost for that six layer disc and drive. Using Blu-ray for storage is dumb. By the time it gets cheap enough to be in everyone's computer (several years from now) then hard drives and flash drives will be even cheaper.

Two years from now, 750GB hard drives will be $100 or less (even today they are only $350. Compare that to Blu-ray drives and discs). Flash drives will be upwards of 40-50 GB's and iPod Nano's will probably come with 20-30GBs'. The only thing next gen disc formats will be good for is movies and HD-DVD is just fine for that and much cheaper.
 
I hope all the Blu-ray fans know that the 200GB disc is a fantasy. Sure, they can be made but you also need a player capable of recognizing 6 layers. They are having enough trouble producing drives that can read 2 blu-ray layers so 6 layers in not going to happen. Futhermore, the most popular Blu-ray player on the market, the PS3, will never read those discs.

250GB hard drives go for 60-70 bucks now so theres no point in paying whatever exhorbant price it's going to cost for that six layer disc and drive. Using Blu-ray for storage is dumb. By the time it gets cheap enough to be in everyone's computer (several years from now) then hard drives and flash drives will be even cheaper.

Two years from now, 750GB hard drives will be $100 or less (even today they are only $350. Compare that to Blu-ray drives and discs). Flash drives will be upwards of 40-50 GB's and iPod Nano's will probably come with 20-30GBs'. The only thing next gen disc formats will be good for is movies and HD-DVD is just fine for that and much cheaper.

Where are you getting your facts about BluRay layers from, because that is not what I have heard?

For starters, they were having problems producing dual layer (50GB) disks, but they seem to be going into full production now. Plus having 6 layer BluRay disks was meant to be in the spec from the beginning.

HD-DVD is fine for now, but what happens when you want to fit a 3hour + movie onto a disk with an uncompressed HD audio stream, this is BluRay comes in.
 
No they won't. Blu-Ray players cannot play conventional CDs or DVDs. That is their big drawback. They are not backwards compatible.

This is one can do DVDs and BluRay disks just fine. It's just a matter of putting the correct laser in the drive.

http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.asp...tionKey=11155,47300000&InMerch=1&v=2#infoarea

Optical Storage

* CD / DVD Rewrite Speed
* 4x (DVD-RW) / 8x (DVD+RW) / 2x (BD-RE)


* Read Speed
* 8x (DVD) / 2x (BD)
* Supported Media Types
* BD-R
* BD-RE
* BD-ROM
* DVD+R
* DVD+R DL
* DVD+RW
* DVD-R
* DVD-R DL
* DVD-ROM
* DVD-RW
* Type
* BD-RE
* Write Speed
* DVD:8x(±R),2x(-R DL),2.4x(+R DL)/BD:2x(-R)
 
I would expect them to introduce rev. 2 (8 core) Mac Pro's at MacWorld in January, and then later on add Blu-ray as an option, just like the 750 GB drives.:)
 
The PS3 drive can do it, why can't others?

...Blu-Ray players cannot play conventional CDs or DVDs. That is their big drawback. They are not backwards compatible.
The Playstation 3 can read theese formats, and it got a Blu-Ray drive:

CD Disc media (read only):
PlayStation CD-ROM
PlayStation 2 CD-ROM
CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW
SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD
DualDisc (audio side), DualDisc (DVD side)

DVD Disc media (read only):
PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM
PLAYSTATION 3 DVD-ROM
DVD-Video: DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW

Blu-ray Disc media (read only):
PLAYSTATION 3 BD-ROM
BD-Video: BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE

Say, why cant BR-drives read DVD disks again?
 
Capacity Eventually Won Out

Betamax, L-750: 1.5 hours BI, 3 hours BII, 4.5 hours BIII
VHS, T-120: 2 Hours SP, 4 Hours LP, 6 Hours EP

I had a Betamax, even though the tapes were smaller and picture better, the higher capacity VHS won out.

Also, I heard on an Eighties program that the nail in the coffin was the porn industry went with VHS...(now I'm hearing they're going to pick Bluray).

Looks like Bluray the eventual winner...

I do have the HD-DVD drive for my XBox 360 - the HD picture is sweet...
(note: you do have to go online and see which movies actually have HD quality, some are being remastered from the original like "Star Trek Original Series" for HD, else you're really only getting DVD quality)
 
BluRay Macs

When Apple gets into HD I would expect them to first offer BluRay drives in their consumer macs as a build to order option to better complement their efforts with the iTV and iTunes Movie store. It isn't essential to these products but simply puts another "feather in their hat" to attract first time buyers and switcher. Apple likes a "WOW" factor in it's products.

I doubt you'll see one in an iTV — they just cost too much and they want the box to be attractive to a wide audience. However there is nothing stopping Apple (or a third party) from making an external BluRay drive in the same form factor as the Mac Mini and the iTV. Then you can add it whenever you're ready without making any other purchase prematurely obsolete.

As for BluRay vs. HD DVD? HD DVD will carry a lead in the beginning. The short-term economics favor this format. However, in the long run BluRay will surpass HD DVD. (I think we'll see a two thirds, one third split.) The key is a killer application utilizing the extra space of the BluRay. If a movie takes 5gb what does it matter that the disc can hold 50gb? How many documentaries and commentaries do you really want on a disc?

The technical superiority of BluRay will be the choice for professionals needing the vast space offered by the format. (eg. SD or Super Definition movies for theatres and arenas screens, and for digital storage & archive.)

Most consumers really don't care that much about which format wins, they just don't want to be stuck with a Beta. Unlike tapes, this is less of a concern with HD Disks. There will be hybrid drives and HD video will take off.

Most consumers will buy whichever costs less so long as it does the job and we'll achieve "peaceful coexistence" between the formats. (I think typical consumers don't really care if the DVDs they buy are DVD-R or DVD+R as long as it gets the job done.) Hopefully the first HD drives Apple offers will be hybrids.
 
However there is nothing stopping Apple (or a third party) from making an external BluRay drive in the same form factor as the Mac Mini and the iTV. Then you can add it whenever you're ready without making any other purchase prematurely obsolete.
That's a good idea. No decoding hardware required in an external drive (the iTV should have the hardware for that). So it comes down to an external Bluray reader, and if they can make it cheap enough (???) it means that people can buy one sooner if they want, and later they can buy a hybrid

Most consumers really don't care that much about which format wins, they just don't want to be stuck with a Beta.
Agreed.
 
No they won't. Blu-Ray players cannot play conventional CDs or DVDs. That is their big drawback. They are not backwards compatible.

Umm. Did I miss something? I work at Circuit City and we put DVD's and burnt DivX discs in all the time, on our Samsung Blu-Ray player. :confused:

Unless we're talking about blu ray drives...I've never used those.
 
That's a good idea. No decoding hardware required in an external drive (the iTV should have the hardware for that). So it comes down to an external Bluray reader, and if they can make it cheap enough (???) it means that people can buy one sooner if they want, and later they can buy a hybrid

Agreed.

Agreed again. That's why I'm holding out. I can get a Samsung Blu ray player for rediculously cheap via manufacturer accomodations, but I'm not going to be stuck with a expensive door stop in 6 months, you know?
 
Blu-Ray = HUGE waste of time . . . unless you are looking at JUST storage. If you are looking for movie playback, HD-DVD is the way to go.

couldnt agree more. In fact I feel HDDVD will be better for storage as well due to its cost.
 
blu-ray would be great when the recordable media is $5 per disc. Until then it would be nice only to play movies. But seriously the media got to be cheap soon. Pay $25 for a 50gig disc is a joke. I rather go to Fry's and pay $89 for a 300gig hard drive.
I agree that the MacPro will be the first to get it. I think Apple will wait until February to bring the Octo-core mac Pro's with Blu-ray.:eek:
 
Blu-Ray = HUGE waste of time . . . unless you are looking at JUST storage. If you are looking for movie playback, HD-DVD is the way to go.

you are so wrong. Blu-Ray is pretty good. And it is taking off in a good way now that PS3 is out, and the other consumer models ie player from sony, samsung, panasonic and more.
 
No they won't. Blu-Ray players cannot play conventional CDs or DVDs. That is their big drawback. They are not backwards compatible.

Before being stubborn about things you believe are facts, you may want check first!!!

Product Description
The new Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray Disc home player from Sony offers a host of new high-definition entertainment possibilities. The BDP-S1 features 1920 x 1080p output, the highest HD signal output currently available through a HDMI™ connection. If your HD-capable television does not have an HDMI connection, you can still get the Blu-ray experience - the 1080i analog output allows for HD-capable televisions without HDMI to enjoy Blu-ray Disc features. The BDP-S1 is also compatible with standard DVDs with the added feature of 1080p upscaling through HDMI, which gives new life to existing DVDs libraries3.

the Samsung BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc Player. Be among the first to view Blu-ray format discs on your HDTV. You'll marvel at the clarity and full-color spectrum of every scene, while multi-channel sound puts you in the center of the action. The Samsung Blu-ray player gives you full 1080p native output and up-conversion for your current catalog. This player also offers backwards compatibility to current dvds and CD playback. So get ready to take the next step in superior technology with Samsung!
 
Where are you getting your facts about BluRay layers from, because that is not what I have heard?

For starters, they were having problems producing dual layer (50GB) disks, but they seem to be going into full production now. Plus having 6 layer BluRay disks was meant to be in the spec from the beginning.

HD-DVD is fine for now, but what happens when you want to fit a 3hour + movie onto a disk with an uncompressed HD audio stream, this is BluRay comes in.

I didn't say they were having a problem producing the discs. I said the issue was with producing the drives.

Even if multiple layers are in the spec, current drives and all drives in the forseeable future can't read 6 layers. In fact, nothing on the market now can read more than 3 layers.

Movies aren't getting longer. They've been about the same average length for 50 years now. The occassional 3 hour movie + uncompressed 7.1 audio stream will fit fine on 30GB HD DVD.

The audio track is going to take up about 8GB's (max) and the movie would probalby take up another 20 (max). But no one is going to use uncompressed audio because we have all these nice compressed HD formats that works so well and are so much harder to pirate. Keep in mind that most of the HD-DVD's on today' market are on single layer discs (15GB's) so you don't need another 15GB's for that extra movie time. At best you might need that extra space for the bonus features but even then you can use a second disc (like they do today) or make the disc double sided.
 
BGil said:
Keep in mind that most of the HD-DVD's on today' market are on single layer discs (15GB's) so you don't need another 15GB's for that extra movie time.

This is absolutely wrong. ALL movies released on HD-DVD so far are on dual layer (30 GB) discs. Unlike Blu-ray, HD-DVD does not have any capacity to spare; on some european discs (Serenity, for example) they actually had to lower the video bitrate because they needed room for more audio tracks (as in Europe it makes more commercial sense to produce one disc for the whole maket so you'll need english, german, french, spanish etc. audio on it).

Btw. Blu-ray doesn't only have a clear capacity, but a just as clear bandwith advantage (48 vs. 30 Mbps). The format is just way more future-proof.
 
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