Boot issue (Mac Plus)

Discussion in 'Apple Collectors' started by Opry99er, Mar 9, 2018.

  1. Opry99er macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #1
    I’ve lurked here long enough. :)

    First of all, I am grateful for any and all help and information I receive in advance. There is some excellent knowledge here and some talented people and I hope I can learn from some of you.

    Okay.... on to my issue. I recently acquired a lovely Mac Plus from the widow of a fellow who passed away a few months ago. I got it home a week ago and it booted up beautifully... it has two external SCSI hard drives which both contain an unbelievable amount of history and richness— I hope to archive these if possible.

    Fast forward to today... I plugged it all back in after relocating it upstairs to my office, and it will not boot up with the hard drives... I tried multiple trouble-shooting techniques, attaching only one drive at a time, allowing longer spin-up time, etc. Each time, and with both drives—the drives spin up, show green lights, perfect. When I turn on the Mac Plus, the screen comes on for a moment, then it turns black and the hard drive light turns to red. And then that’s it. I can boot from floppy, but my Mac Plus does not boot from the hard drives now.

    Instinct tells me that there is something wrong either with the interface cable (unlikely) or the SCSI port on the Mac itself, but I took upmost care in transporting the Mac and components to my office.

    Do you guys have any ideas?

    I tried to post pictures, but they seem to be too large. I will try to resize tomorrow.
     
  2. MacTech68 macrumors 68020

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #2
    Can you boot from a floppy with the drive(s) connected ? If so, do the drives mount on the desktop ?

    What disk utilities do you have on floppy ?
     
  3. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #3
    First, thanks for your quick reply!!

    I haven’t tried booting from Floppy with the drives attached and turned on. I can try that later today.

    As far as disk stuff, I have Mac3d, Microsoft BASIC, System Tools, MacDraw, Red Ryder, and potentially a few others as well.
     
  4. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #4
    It will not boot with System disk in the drive if the HDs are on.
     
  5. MacTech68 macrumors 68020

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #5
    Is it the same one HD at a time ?

    Also, what does the machine do? Sad Mac, blank screen, anything? Does the floppy drive make a noise? Do you get a brief "happy mac" icon ?
     
  6. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #6
    No matter what HD I have plugged in (#1, #2, or both) the behavior is the same. It powers on, gives a very brief Question mark disk, then the screen goes black and the HD turns on a red light. If both HDs are plugged in, the first one in the chain turns red, the second one stays green.
     
  7. MacTech68 macrumors 68020

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #7
    Try with the external HDs connected but NOT powered on. If you can boot from "System Tools" floppy, turn the drives on (one at a time) and see if they auto-mount on the desktop.
     
  8. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #8
    I’ll try that next!! Thanks
    --- Post Merged, Mar 11, 2018 ---
    System booted... turned on the first drive... light went green. No HD mount. Turned on the second drive... light went green. No HD mount.

    I have my system now powered up with two HDs attached and running, both with green lights, but no mounted drives showing on the desktop.
     
  9. MacTech68 macrumors 68020

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #9
    Do you have a floppy disk labelled "Utilities 1" - if so, try the same again, but this time you can launch "Disk First Aid". Clicking the "Drive" button will allow you to select different hard disks to check. Once selected, click "Open" then on the next screen click "Start".

    There's a possibility that it won't see the drives - if that happens we need a way to write 800K floppies. Do you have another older Mac ?
     
  10. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #10
    I do not have another Macintosh. My other machines are a TI-99/4A and an Apple IIe.

    When I get home I will see exactly what disks I have. I know on the hard drive is a full custom install of OS6.0.8 along with an unbelievable amount of utilities, transfer and BBS programs, Artist and paint programs, etc. Unfortunately, I can’t access those files at the moment.

    Thanks again for your help.
     
  11. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #11
    I do not have Disk First Aid on any working disk I have. I suppose I could order some system software on eBay.

    Just sucks—- these drives worked great a week ago. I even played some games and did some word processing, browsed through different BBS programs.... now, nada. Sucks.
     
  12. MacTech68, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018

    MacTech68 macrumors 68020

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #12
    I hate to ask, but how did you turn the system off when it was working?

    EDIT: I'm thinking of a corrupted partition map.

    There was a utility that would recognize a certain corruption and offer to fix it. I THINK it might have been Silverlining. There is an 800k boot of early Norton's Utilities 'out there' too.

    This is assuming everything is exactly as it was. No bent pins in the SCSI connectors etc.

    Either that or the hard drives have suffered a sudden failure. The question is, is it hardware/fatal or software/corruption.

    Of course, it could still be a hardware fault that I've not seen before.
     
  13. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #13
    No worries. :)

    I always close all applications, select “SHUT DOWN” from the Special Menu, and then flip the power switch when prompted.

    I’m thinking that it is likely something inside the Mac... relating to the SCSI interface. Both drives when plugged in independently function the same way... so the unlikely possibility that both HDs failed in the same way at the same time is a little too far fetched for me. I have two common denominators... the UPS and the Mac. I wasn’t using this UPS when it was working... plugged straight into the wall. I do not have any reason to believe it is the UPS because all other components including the Macintosh itself are plugged into the same strip.

    That leaves the Mac. I don’t really know much about the inner workings yet, but I’ve been studying.
     
  14. MacTech68 macrumors 68020

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #14
    Good points. I'd also be checking carefully on the DB25 connector that plugs into the Mac Plus for bent or missing pins.

    Also, if the drives use Centronics 50 pin connectors, it may be worth while cleaning the contacts on both the plug and socket sides.

    Do the drives have any switches on the rear (other than power) ? Sometimes there are termination switches and a SCSI ID selector. However, if the drive inside has been replaced, you won't know if those switches actually work unless you open them up and look at how they are connected. I've seen so many where the switches were not connected to replacement drives because the connection points were different.

    Some SCSI ID selectors use a push-button to advance the ID number. Some case designs these can be accidentally pushed when moving the external drive.

    Your Mac itself is ALWAYS SCSI ID 7 - your drives need to be each on separate numbers from 0 to 6 inclusive.

    Since the UPS wasn't being used before, try it without it. You don't want to be chasing your tail.
     
  15. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #15
    Really good information there, thank you...

    I’ll be home tonight after work and I’ll go through and really dig in. I’ll inspect any jumpers, dips, push buttons, or any other terminating information on each of the drives and report back.

    I’ve been trying to post pictures, but for some reason the forum won’t let me. Let me try again...
    --- Post Merged, Mar 13, 2018 ---
    Here is one picture.... I’ll take more when I get home.


    The drive mounted on the bottom is a 200mb drive, he DataFrame off to the left is a 20mb drive. When I booted up last time, i seem to remember that the OS is installed on the 20mb DataFrame.

    The drive on the bottom is the first one in the chain, the DataFrame is chained off the first.

    Snapseed.JPG
     
  16. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #16
    Well..... the DataFrame drive did not have a termination setting, but the NuDesign did!!! I changed it up to “4” and we have liftoff!!!!!

    I must have thumbed the push button, just like you said, while moving it.

    I cannot tell you how unbelievably thrilled I am right now, and how grateful. :)

    What an awesome feeling. :)

    Message me your address so I can send you a gift card! Least I can do is buy you dinner after the amazing help you have been. :)

    DD4AEFF8-10E5-4B5C-A6ED-8A13E5A5D679.jpeg
    --- Post Merged, Mar 13, 2018 ---
    So... I tried to shut down and start back up and got a new problem.... the first drive flashes red and the Mac won’t boot..... strange!!!
    --- Post Merged, Mar 13, 2018 ---
    ****EDIT****

    I changed termination to “5” and now it started right up.... both drives showing.

    I’m really confused now. :)
     

    Attached Files:

  17. MacTech68, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018

    MacTech68 macrumors 68020

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #17
    Hmmm - it's either an intermittent fault (I personally have a love/hate relationship with those kinds of faults), OR it's what we refer to as "SCSI Voodoo" ;)

    Sadly, I'm thinking it's an intermittent fault now.

    BTW, those numbers are for the SCSI ID (like a street address for the drive) - only one drive can live at one address at a time. ;)

    Any number from 0 to 6 (inclusive) is fine. There are 'conventions' which follow ID Zero being a single internal drive, and ID 3 being a CDROM drive. You do NOT have to follow those 'conventions'.

    Termination is a different story - not many drives have internal terminators (usually). This allows for an external terminator but ONLY on the physical last drive on the chain. However, considering their age, anything is possible.

    I can't recall if System 6 will provide the info, but if you select the drive on the desktop, select "File" --> "Get info", it may tell you the SCSI ID for that drive - if the number doesn't match the number on the back, the ID switch is either faulty OR not connected to the drive inside.

    Keep us informed as to how it behaves and what, if any, information you can glean from the above.


    LATE EDIT: - I now recall that the DataFrame is a strange beast. If it's the original drive, it's an MFM interface with a SCSI converter board. DataFrame Manager is the program that allows you to change the drive's SCSI ID (a setting on the converter board).

    Get it by scrolling all the way at the bottom at the link below, (or see if you have a disk or the Application on those drives). You should at LEAST be able to view the current setting of the SCSI ID.

    http://www.3rz.org/mirrors/macdrivermuseum/disk.shtml
     
  18. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #18
    Cool!! DataFrame manager is actually on one of the hard drives, IIRC. I spent a couple hours cruising the drives last night... there is so much good stuff in there. I’m really glad to have this machine.

    I spent so much time on the computer last night because I was afraid to turn it off again. :)

    I’ll fire it back up tonight and report back. One thing is for sure, I’m in a whole lot better shape than I was two days ago. :)

    Thanks again, pal.
     
  19. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
  20. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #20
  21. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #21
    This is at a vertical orientation, but should look okay if viewed in full screen mode on a handheld device. Otherwise, it is somewhat cumbersome to watch due to the orientation.

    Apologies.



     
  22. Opry99er thread starter macrumors member

    Opry99er

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    #22
    Booted up 3 times today with no issues. :)

    I think this weekend I will try connecting the Zip drive and see what is on those cartridges!!! :)

    Thanks again, MacTech68
     

Share This Page

21 March 9, 2018