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British Pentagon Hacker Faces 70 Years

Henri Gaudier

Henri Gaudier

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
May 4, 2005
526
0
France
That's the price you pay for embarrassing the US military.

For what it's worth, I think the behaviour of the British government has been disgraceful throughout this case.
 
Most amusing quote...

After last month's House of Lords decision, McKinnon said the case had proved devastating in the six years since he was arrested. With his bail conditions barring him from using the internet, a return to his previous work in IT had been nearly impossible and potential employers were scared off.
Click to expand...

So, essentially, one feels one is being treated unfairly because one is unable to obtain work in information technology, where one is responsible for the security of others' valuable data, because one's hobby is sabotaging government networks? Yes, that certainly is a travesty. :p

I don't fully understand this part...

McKinnon would face a much shorter sentence under Britain's computer crime laws. The defence has argued he is being unfairly targeted because his work embarrassed the US security services, and that an attempt by US prosecutors to make a deal with McKinnon - in which he would be offered a six-month sentence for his cooperation - constituted an unfair derailment of British legal procedures. That contention was rejected by the law lords, who said granting the appeal would "imperil the integrity of the extradition process".
Click to expand...

But it seems to suggest that, essentially, he could face a perfectly reasonable if not downright lenient sentence, given the gravity of his actions, by simply cooperating with the government, which presumably would primarily involve helping them understand what he did and ultimately "make their security less sucky." If that's the case then... :rolleyes:

He still doesn't deserve to be executed (and it isn't at all clear that anyone actually intends to try to do that), and no one deserves this ridiculous and anti-American policy of these fugazi "enemy combatant" arrests.

But if the primary barrier to leniency is his willingness to cooperate... it seems like a longer imprisonment of this individual is necessary purely to protect the public safety.
 
Well by "fry", it's not like they would kill him (in a way we'd be aware about).
 
This take on The Register pretty much sums it up IMO. McKinnon is being made to look like a mastermind when in reality anyone with half a brain could hack the US military, BECAUSE THEY DON"T SECURE THEIR COMPUTERS.

Another case of US government overreaction having been caught with their pants round their ankles, and of course if the positions were reversed Washington would quite rightly tell the UK MOD to **** off.
 
Wikipedia said:
The controversy stemmed from the absence of any reciprocal arrangement in respect of the United States. Therefore there was no requirement on the U.S. to provide prima facie evidence when requesting the extradition of UK residents, both foreign nationals and UK citizens, but as provided by the UK Act it maintained the requirement for the UK to provide such evidence to the U.S. in the reverse situation.
Click to expand...

Lovely.
 
I'm probably the most conservative guy on this site and 100% American and you know what I say? Hire the guy as a security consultant and pay him what he's worth! While the guy committed crimes (and doesn't deserve 70 years!) he certainly showed the government/military that their computers/networks aren't as secure as they thought. This is an opportunity for them to do better.

Of course, maybe I'm biased since I once faced 18 years for something similar. ;)
 
Lesse... assuming I was stupid enough to hack into a federal system, I'd expect that if I was caught - the penalties would probably be somewhat "severe". Homeland security & all those wonderful new laws we have to protect us from terrorists and things that live under your bed, and all that...

I would also assume that as part of any punishment, I'd be subject to similar clamp-downs on access to technology, as have happened to other hackers (certainly nothing new here) in past. It usually goes something like this:
"If you've been convicted of a cyber-crime, you will instantly have your internet privileges revoked and access to anything more advanced than a circa 1970's toaster will be forbidden, upon penality of Rape, then Death & more Raping.
This restriction may follow you for an indeterminate amount of time, even after sentence is served - this includes: Any workforce employment - past or future- home furnishings, or that robot woman you built in your Moms basement because real women will not talk to you anymore; you now being unemployed, cast from modern societies advancements, and generally have nothing more to look forward to than joining a cult and marrying a sheep".

I mean, DUH. I wouldn't be bitching about it like it's SOOO unusual that hackers/crackers get the book thrown at them. Especially in todays day & age of law enforcement viewing techno-savvy criminals as a serious threat to individual and country.
Personally, if I was that monumentally idiotic, I'd probably take whatever the prosecution was offering at the table for a deal - seriously. Beats having your chocolate starfish pounded into a sore meat-tunnel every night in prison, for the rest of your life.

Because dude, you're obviously not that great a criminal mastermind if they caught you. Quit your whining, and suck it up.
 
DigiCatRedux said:
Because dude, you're obviously not that great a criminal mastermind if they caught you. Quit your whining, and suck it up.
Click to expand...


The chap was looking for evidence of UFOs, he's not a "criminal mastermind" looking to steal nuclear secrets to sell it to the Chinese.

Like I said earlier, a computer nerd has embarrassed the most powerful army on the earth and they're seriously pissed off and want to save face.
 
DigiCatRedux said:
Lesse... assuming I was stupid enough to hack into a federal system, I'd expect that if I was caught - the penalties would probably be somewhat "severe". Homeland security & all those wonderful new laws we have to protect us from terrorists and things that live under your bed, and all that...
Click to expand...
Except McKinnon isn't a US citizen, and therefore isn't under the jurisdiction of all those wonderful new laws you have. Under British legal precedent, a hacking incident carried out from the UK is tried in British courts. The only reason this isn't being followed is because of US pressure on the British government to do as they're told.

Sooner or later a British Prime Minister should publicly tell the US to piss off about something when the ultimatums start. The standing ovation they'd receive from the British public would see them elected for another decade at least.
 
I seriously doubt he would get the death penalty. But, he is guilty, by his own admission. He knowingly hacked into these computers. You dance to the song, you pay the piper.

As many systems as he compromised, 70 years is reasonable, plus if he has good behavior, he could be out a lot sooner. With all the hacking and other computer crime going on, I do support tougher sentences, rather than slaps on the wrist. You can wreck too many lives, thinking its a game. :mad:
 
Queso said:
Except McKinnon isn't a US citizen, and therefore isn't under the jurisdiction of all those wonderful new laws you have. Under British legal precedent, a hacking incident carried out from the UK is tried in British courts. The only reason this isn't being followed is because of US pressure on the British government to do as they're told.

Sooner or later a British Prime Minister should publicly tell the US to piss off about something when the ultimatums start. The standing ovation they'd receive from the British public would see them elected for another decade at least.
Click to expand...

Could not agree more.

Spineless bastards.
 
To turn this around on the UK folks, if an american hacked UK computers, where should he be tried? UK or US? If as you say UK is more lenient, then he might want to be tried there. Opinions?
 
iMac-Knight said:
To turn this around on the UK folks, if an american hacked UK computers, where should he be tried? UK or US? If as you say UK is more lenient, then he might want to be tried there. Opinions?
Click to expand...


If a US citizen commits a crime in the US then they are tried in a US court.

If a UK citizen commits a crime in the UK then they are tried in a UK court.


EDIT: An exception would be a crime against humanity, which would be tried at The Hague.
 
Mmmm .... in his defence he is a sufferer of Aspergers and in part that is characterised by obsessive behaviour and an inability to see the consequences of his actions. It's clearly a contentious area but it is something that has to be considered in assessing his culpability and I don't feel it has. Before 9/11, the Pentagon accepted that there were around 300 different hackers in their systems each night and so something was/is sadly amiss with their security.

With reference to mkrishnan: the US turned down an offer from his solicitor, Ms Todner, that for leniency, he would be willing to work as a security adviser to the US Government. The US prosecutor turned this offer down saying that Mr Mckinnon wasn't a gifted hacker and therefore had no talents to trade.

The thing that most angers me is how the European Court of Human Rights in France, let him down. It's one thing for the UK Government to betray their people by signing the 2003 Extradition Act which is wholly unethical and treasonous in my opinion but also, and what a kick in the teeth this is, it's a one way agreement! But it's another, for the highest court in Europe to betray him as a citizen of Europe. He faced a very minor sentence in England, perhaps even a community service order and now thanks to those judges he could be in prison for life and they see nothing contrary to European justice and human rights in that. It appears Britain is no longer interested in national sovereignty and self governance by signing this Act and I wonder how far into European legislation the American Government want to take these kind of agreements. Sarkozy is happily selling France down the toilet and he, as a sycophant and Quisling, would be the ideal man to bring this notion to the very core of the European community.

At heart I feel Mckinnon is someone who needs protecting from a vile and unethical prosecution. He is mentally "ill" and needs assistance and not to be scapegoated. This extradition, without even prima-facie evidence is a terrible development and a set back to human rights law. It's true that he shouldn't have done what he did but hell .. the US does it all the time with Echelon;seeking financial advantage for US contractors etc etc. but the law that is irresistibly dragging him to the courthouse and the anticipated outcome are unacceptable.
 
With reference to mkrishnan: the US turned down an offer from his solicitor, Ms Todner, that for leniency, he would be willing to work as a security adviser to the US Government. The US prosecutor turned this offer down saying that Mr Mckinnon wasn't a gifted hacker and therefore had no talents to trade.
Click to expand...

You should NEVER reward bad behavior with a job offer.
 
Henri Gaudier said:
Mmmm .... in his defence he is a sufferer of Aspergers and in part that is characterised by obsessive behaviour and an inability to see the consequences of his actions. It's clearly a contentious area but it is something that has to be considered in assessing his culpability and I don't feel it has. Before 9/11, the Pentagon accepted that there were around 300 different hackers in their systems each night and so something was/is sadly amiss with their security.

With reference to mkrishnan: the US turned down an offer from his solicitor, Ms Todner, that for leniency, he would be willing to work as a security adviser to the US Government. The US prosecutor turned this offer down saying that Mr Mckinnon wasn't a gifted hacker and therefore had no talents to trade.

The thing that most angers me is how the European Court of Human Rights in France, let him down. It's one thing for the UK Government to betray their people by signing the 2003 Extradition Act which is wholly unethical and treasonous in my opinion but also, and what a kick in the teeth this is, it's a one way agreement! But it's another, for the highest court in Europe to betray him as a citizen of Europe. He faced a very minor sentence in England, perhaps even a community service order and now thanks to those judges he could be in prison for life and they see nothing contrary to European justice and human rights in that. It appears Britain is no longer interested in national sovereignty and self governance by signing this Act and I wonder how far into European legislation the American Government want to take these kind of agreements. Sarkozy is happily selling France down the toilet and he, as a sycophant and Quisling, would be the ideal man to bring this notion to the very core of the European community.

At heart I feel Mckinnon is someone who needs protecting from a vile and unethical prosecution. He is mentally "ill" and needs assistance and not to be scapegoated. This extradition, without even prima-facie evidence is a terrible development and a set back to human rights law. It's true that he shouldn't have done what he did but hell .. the US does it all the time with Echelon;seeking financial advantage for US contractors etc etc. but the law that is irresistibly dragging him to the courthouse and the anticipated outcome are unacceptable.
Click to expand...
Well said, on all counts.
 
Wait. He hacked the US Military/NASA??? WTF? Why are they throwing him in jail? I'd harness his ability and use him as a weapon. Maybe that's what they're secretly doing.:eek::D

C'mon! Hacking the US Military? That's pretty impressive.
 
Prof. said:
C'mon! Hacking the US Military? That's pretty impressive.
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No Prof., sadly it's not. By all accounts it's incredibly easy to do.

Now I don't know how you feel about that, but if it were our country there would be a massive outcry about it being the case.
 
So, we're saying for example - if a U.S. citizen compromised the security of - oh, I don't know... the RAF or MI6 in a search for UFO documentation, we wouldn't want them to stand charges in England where the breach of security happened?

I think this is less "Americans trying to push their weight around" and more of trying to extradite a criminal to face charges where their crime took place.
England has also stepped-up its severity of punishable offenses for those charged with cyber-crimes & terrorist-like actions, so I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine if a U.S. citizen was caught doing exactly the same thing, there would be an outcry from Englands government & populace to have them shipped over to face their crimes. And I'd be all for it.
Probably why one shouldn't go poking around in secure Government databases.
It usually doesn't end well.

I also don't think Mr. Mckinnon will have to worry about the Death-Penality... assuming he's tried & convicted over here. That level of severity for a punishment wouldn't exactly be something the American public would stand for - despite the opinions of many other counties that we're all cowboy hat wearing, pistol-shooting warmongers with blood in our eyes.

Instead, This "computer nerd who embarrassed the most powerful army on Earth" will likely spend some years behind bars. Yes, it's always funny to bash on each others military powers - but there is a part of me that suspects if Mckinnon had rather invaded Englands Banking network and stolen millions of pounds of the populaces moneys or put the financial security of millions of peoples wealth in jeopardy, there would be little debate about the why's & how's about extradition - and just the question of WHEN.

What strikes me most is this individuals apparent total lack of trying to be cooperative with the authorities...
Man, I know if that was MY butt in the sling - I'd be singing like a canary and providing as much honest-to-goodness cooperation as I could muster.
Better to be Big Governments bitch, than just some bitch in jail.

Criminal mastermind (which was a joke j.s.y.k.) or not - still a criminal, and as iMac-Knight so thoughtfully put it:
You dance to the song, you pay the piper.

SO: my thoughts on the plight of English UFO obsessive Gary Mckinnon?

*He should go to jail.
*He should go to jail in the U.S.
*He should probably have taken/take whatever the prosecution is offering for a deal.
*If he's going to be all snotty about it, 70 years is about fine. Guess you won't be doing that again. Bonus points for setting an example!

I also don't buy very heavily into the "he suffers from a medical condition that makes him unaware of consequence". Hmm - probably all the better he IS put away - lest he someday hurts somebody & claims he didn't know what the outcome of his actions would lead to.

At some point, you have to argue that deliberately hacking into a government mainframe with full conscience of what you are doing, and searching FOR - is just *slightly* different than the actions of someone who can't comprehend what their doing at any given moment or the consequences.

Just my opinion.
 
DigiCatRedux said:
....but there is a part of me that suspects if Mckinnon had rather invaded Englands Banking network and stolen millions of pounds of the populaces moneys or put the financial security of millions of peoples wealth in jeopardy, there would be little debate about the why's & how's about extradition - and just the question of WHEN....
Click to expand...
Believe me, Britain's banks don't leave the doors and windows wide open and invite hackers in like the US military does. They actually pay attention to network security, something the US government doesn't want to bother with.

And in answer to your other point, if the UK secret services or military were hacked by an American your government would laugh in the face of any request for extradition, just as it did when the UK government asked for information regarding the illegal killing of UK servicemen by American airmen in Iraq.

As time goes on I'm more convinced we need to pull away from the USA. The idea of the future being put forward by it isn't in tune with British values, something the UK government will eventually find out when the riots start, as they inevitably will.
 
DigiCatRedux said:
So, we're saying for example - if a U.S. citizen compromised the security of -
Click to expand...

Is that a new euphemism for being made to look like fools??

I guess this is the best the U.S. could do, given that the miscreant had not signed a document under an official secrets act.

So, they will do the same thing as included in the document, lock him away for 50 years.
 
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