Broadwell rMBP 15" and Discrete GPUs

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by singhjeet29, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. singhjeet29 macrumors regular

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    #1
    I know the new Haswell rMBPs have just come out. While I would like to get one now, my current MBP is still trucking along just fine, even more than fine with the recent Mavericks update (it hasn't felt this fast since Snow Leopard).

    I know the current baseline 15" rMBP come with the integrated Iris Pro graphics with the ability to get the upgraded 15" with a discrete Nvidia 750M.

    Do you think by next year when the Broadwell rMBPs come out that there will still be a discrete chip upgrade option or will the whole 15" line just run on integrated graphics. I would prefer to get a machine with a discrete chip.

    Any thoughts and insight would be appreciated. Thanks.
     
  2. dusk007 macrumors 68040

    dusk007

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    #2
    I guess that depends. If they stick with exactly the same design and change nothing but the chips then it will probably arrive just like the current with a dgpu option.
    20nm GPUs will be out by then and should be quite a bit faster.
    Intel on one slide said that they only aimed for 40% faster than Haswell so I think the speed difference should stay about the same as it is now. The slide that Intel said this on was from over a year ago, so who knows.

    Since Broadwells GPU probably will eclipse the current 750M performance Apple might also take the opportunity and kill dGPUs off as it wouldn't be a downgrade even for gaming. Like 650M to Iris Pro for gamers is. I think they stick with the same they have right now and just replace chips. If they switch to Intel only I think a partial redesign will come along side it.
    Maybe Apple isn't sure themselves yet. They could have put a 760M into the current 15" and cooling would probably have been just fine. They stuck with the barely any faster 750M and only increased VRAM to 2GB which it should have been in the first place with 650M already. They keep their options open by not making the current one too fast. Or they just want to make the Intel only more appealing and hope people buy them. I guess it depends on what sells. If dGPU buyers are few enough, they will kill it. If not they will keep it just so they can keep selling an expensive config way above entry price that people flock to.
    My guess is 20nm GPUs will be compelling enough and Apple won't change anything about the MBP design for at least one more year.
     
  3. ElderBrE macrumors regular

    ElderBrE

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    #3
    Will depend on what Nvidia and AMD put on the table next year for mobile GPUs. Everyone's talking about broad well like it'll deliver and Nvidia won't come up with anything new. That's a bit absurd imho.
     
  4. walkie macrumors 6502

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    #4
    I think Apple will provide the rMBP with a dGPU as long as Intel doesn't exceed what's nvidia/ATI offers at the time, newer games will always need more GPU power, not to mention apps like AutoCAD and the like.
     
  5. HurryKayne macrumors 6502a

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    #5
    i only hope to have ram unsoldered for that day
     
  6. luffytubby macrumors 6502a

    luffytubby

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    #6
    OP: It really depends on Maxwell(the next GPU architecture). It's been delayed just like Broadwell, so we might see a launch in Q3, where much like Ivy+Nvidia Kepler graphics where a match made it heaven.

    There has been rumors that Intel will kill dedicated graphics by limiting the bus speeds for dedicated graphics effectively making dedicated graphics redundant. The rumor goes on that Intel will make "sacrifices" to cut off Nvidia.

    They used a similar thought-pattern during the early Netbook days. Atom Netbooks came out and where affordable. Nvidia created the Ion graphics chip that gave these small form factor Netbooks the ability to game. Intel insisted that Netbooks was not intended for gaming, and more or less made it so Ion graphics and Ion 2 graphics never took off.
    It was a stupid thing too, because early Netbooks where not equipped to handle HD videos smoothly, and even if they where it would be laggy.

    Make no mistake. Intel intent to kill Nvidia. It's not about giving good performance. Iris Pro can't comfortable do 4K video rendering or anything like that, but Iris Pro is so good at everything else besides gaming, that there soon won't be justification for Apple to keep making dedicated graphics because they have never, and never will be a games focused company.

    It's a weird situation. - Looking at this forum, the biggest controversities over the last years are related to the GPU, and specifically the requirements of gamers. Video editors and audio and image editors are not as picky and can work well on the new integrated Intel graphics. But not gamers. Hardcore gamers who want Apple are in a pinch.
    And it's a strange transistion, as Steam has taken off on Mac and more and more games gets Wine wrapper clients making Mac games a much bigger thing. Adding to that, that the entire PC segment has seen a revolution in new business models like free to play(Planetside, Warframe, Path of Exile..) and not just PC gaming but PC gaming has a whole is taking over the living room, creating more income than hollywood now.

    We still don't have any solid data on how many people actually purchase Macs with a major focus on gaming alongside the other activities.



    It's also engulfed in frustration. Towards people who dislike Microsoft and their latest directions, or people who dislike the heavy bulky anti-mobile gaming notebooks that wheigh so much they might as well get a stationary PC, since battery and weight and dimensions are outright abysmal.

    Then there is people like me who are power users and love the OSX ecosystem, but also the build quality. Gaming being a thing for me, I could perhaps have been persuaded to buy the Razer rip-off Razer Blade. A near carbon copy version of rMBP with a powerful graphics card.
    Problem is lack of build quality - abysmal screen, mediocre audio, overheating and throttling, as well as questioning Razer as a service and reliance company based on their past peripherals like mice and keyboards and headsets that break. Not a good argument to invest over 2000 dollars for a product that is supposed to be a 3-5 year commitment.



    In the end there is a lot of reasons why it's a good idea to keep dedicated graphics in rMBPs. But it might not be up to Apple. As long as Apple has Intel processors, Intel can dictate it.
    Not only that, Apple is a major player in the advancement of Integrated graphics! Why? Because integrated graphics allows for slimmer designs, and more than any other thing - apple products from their phones, to tablets, to notebooks to even their desktop iMac, thinness is the biggest deal.
    It's status, its design, it's about reducing the footprint making everything lighter.
    Dedicated graphics goes against that.

    But maybe Nvidia knows that? We don't know much about Maxwell. We don't know what we can expect. Maybe Nvidia have already given up on the laptop market. The 700 series is just a rebranded 600 series with slightly higher clocks. 750m is two year old tech. So it will be an interesting time.



    It won't happen. Even if they did make some new Ram Dim-slot standard it would take a long time before ram modules to appear on stores all over the world and be adapted by all manufacturers.

    Secondly, and perhaps most crucially; all these companies have no reason to do this. They make so much money of it this way, and there is no competitor who want to do this.
    It would require a tremendous amount of RnD. Both for ram and SSD. Just to make it user replaceable? That means people upgrade less often. That's not good business, if you are in the business of making money.

    There is nothing to gain here outside more loyalty from aware customers(but I don't know how many laptop consumers actually care about upgrades) and just pure ethics. I am so cynical I don't believe any multi million dollar company cares about these things if it is not related to profit.
     
  7. GSPice macrumors 68000

    GSPice

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    #7
    Please do some research on the cost and benefit not just to Apple, but to you, the customer, for keeping the memory soldered.
     
  8. Count Blah macrumors 68030

    Count Blah

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    #8
    Does not compute. The move was for maximizing profits and making the unit thinner. I'd gladly take a thinness hit to upgrade the memory by myself.
     
  9. GSPice macrumors 68000

    GSPice

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    #9
    Whoops, look outside the box and you might find something. Not gonna explain it here anymore. ;)
     
  10. Count Blah macrumors 68030

    Count Blah

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    #10
    I must be dense. I'd gladly give up 1% performance benefit and a couple MMs to double my RAM as my needs and software change from year to year.
     
  11. GSPice macrumors 68000

    GSPice

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    #11
    ::thumbs up::

    hopefully someday you won't need to double your RAM as your software needs change
     
  12. singhjeet29, Oct 29, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013

    singhjeet29 thread starter macrumors regular

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    #12
    Thanks for the insight. I did not know about these rumours. I remember a few years ago Intel wasn't really after the graphics market, they just wanted to be able to charge more for low-mid end products that didn't need to have a dedicated chip by providing low level graphics. Now (with a lot of the push coming from Apple) Intel seems to be very aggressive with their GPUs.

    I don't know how close Intel would be to killing something like Nvidia, nor would that be good for anybody really.

    As a gamer as well, I really hope there's a GPU in the next rMBP!
     
  13. kahuna0k macrumors member

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    #13
    Uhmm, do you mean they will kill Nvidia on Intel platform?, if they do that they will be given AMD fresh air from gamers all around the world… maybe they try to kill them on the mobile market, but IMHO we will have Nvidia while we have Intel and game market survives on PC.
     
  14. HurryKayne macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    Just to synthesize ,if discrete is against all you mention above and if Companies have reason to solder all the ram and all..whatever..well i don't agree and while its maybe just me, i won't buy a machine sealed,soldered,crippled and glued like that for 2000 euros,
    i have my reasons to go for a refurbished starting from now.
     
  15. walkie macrumors 6502

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    #15
    In addition, Intel doesn't rule the CPU market as it used to be, Apple uses ARM chips on iPhones/iPad and I read they may be planning to move away from Intel chips to spread the use of its own chips to the rest of the devices, so we may see a MacBook Air using those chips in no time.

    Apple wants to compete with Microsoft on the gaming land, Mavericks is a clear starting.
     
  16. LaravelNick macrumors member

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    #16
    A lot of folks like / need to run Windows on their Macbooks, not because it's a better o/s than Apple's, but because they need to for their work.
     
  17. CoolHotCold, Oct 30, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013

    CoolHotCold macrumors member

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    #17
    It depends on what Nvidia or AMD release next year and how it stacks up to Broadwell.

    Intel can't just reduce speed on the PCIe lanes as it's what Thunderbolt uses and you can pretty much guarantee Intel and Apple want Thunderbolt to succeed so if they hinder the graphics cards on the PCIe lanes they would be shooting themselves in the foot. They also can't implement any firmware or software hinderance as they would get anti-competition lawsuits faster than you can blink from all parties (motherboard suppliers, AMD/Nvidia, governments, regulatory authorities etc).

    So no, rumours is all it will ever be in regards to killing off the dedicated market for GPU's.


    The more likely reason is Intel will use the integrated graphics market to sell their top end chips to notebook manufacturers which is essentially a new market for them. If they can release a CPU+GPU single chip that competes with dGPU + separate CPU on price and performance then they are increasing their revenue by entering new markets.


    There will be a point where Nvidia and AMD (especially AMD) are unable to compete with the graphics on chip in terms of performance and power requirements, probably the next 3 or 4 years if Intels current upwards trend continues. Expect the same next year from Broadwell with Intel graphics used in the vast majority of Apple Hardware with only the most expensive configurations coming with a separate dGPU




    *Edit*

    And as far as ARM on Air's go they'll still likely Intel ARM chips
    http://www.engadget.com/2013/10/30/first-64-bit-quad-core-arm-chips-to-be-fabricated-by-intel/
     
  18. walkie macrumors 6502

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    #18
    Yes you're right a lot of people still depend on Windows, Windows is downhill, the days when the couple Wintel dominated the whole desktop market have fortunately passed, now we have more and far better choices: Linux for free, MacOSX etc., I for one am forced to use Windows at work and I hate it, it's so frustrating..., most people do it for legacy/work reasons and for gaming.

    ----------

    Intel already killed dedicated audio cards/network cards market, they want to do the same with dedicated GPU market, and they will for sure.
     
  19. ElderBrE macrumors regular

    ElderBrE

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    #19
    The thing is Intel is greedy, on top of wanting to be a monopoly. And greed makes you very stupid, look at the Iris Pro prices.

    Instead of making something cheaper to really compete, they simply said to themselves "well, it's a new thing, and since it replaces the dGPU, let's charge as much as the dGPU".

    You see that strategy all the time when something new pops up... instead of passing on the profit to the customer for the new thing, many businesses try to relate to what existed until then and increase their profits by putting the same price as what it replaces and supposedly makes better. And then, they go on to wonder why people don't change, since it's better. Bleeeh.

    I'm really scared about seeing Intel chips everywhere on laptops and desktops mostly, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find AMD stuff.
     
  20. CoolHotCold macrumors member

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    #20
    And I agree with that, they want to kill the GPU market, but not though negative operations (such as software/firmware restrictions or slowing down PCIe lanes) they'll do it through improvements on their GPU in becoming a actual competitor to Nvidia or AMD.
     
  21. luffytubby macrumors 6502a

    luffytubby

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    #21
    I am not telling you what is the right and wrong thing, but I am telling you that you are urinating against the wind if you are looking to stick it to the big man. None of these companies ever wanted anything else than to suck every dime out of you.


    I am absolutely with you that in a world of fairness, they would make new standards to keep letting us upgrade our SSDs and Ram and user replace our batteries. That would have been the right thing to do for the customers who want it.

    buying refurbished now will be silly. Ge the new machine and pay overprice or live with the lowest priced model(of your budget) and then sell when you need to upgrade. I think that would be a wiser choice. It's not like this machine ain't superior in many ways even compared to last ways even if raw performance is not up.

    ----------

    I am not sure how much AMD care with their new revenue stream from having their graphics processor in PS4, Xbox One and Wii U. You are talking about hundreds of gaming rigs.


    It was good that AMD bought ATI(good for them). They must have seen that they couldn't keep competing with Intel. And that's the problem. Look at these iris Pro benchmarks:

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/12

    In Crysis Warhead Iris actually leads over 650m unless you up the resolution. the lack of vram kills it, but even if it's 5-20% behind in some of the other games like Bioshock Infinite... it's getting really close.
     
  22. johnnylarue macrumors 6502a

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    #22


    To be fair, buying refurbished has never made more sense. You're paying significantly less to get a machine that is 90% the equal (if not more in some regards) of the latest model.

    Faster SSDs aside (which is barely noticeable in everyday use), the main selling points of the Haswell update are marginally better battery life (+ ~1 hour) and... a $200 price drop.
     
  23. luffytubby macrumors 6502a

    luffytubby

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    #23
    I think thunderbolt 2 and 802.11ac are important updates for anyone who is really into the apple ecosystem! But I see what you are saying!
     
  24. HurryKayne macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    You know what i really to urinate against the big men
    and yes i'm silly but still capable to understand what is wrong
    and what its not even if massively taken as acceptable by the mob.
    You may say ,i'm a dreamer^^...but i piss on every wind...
    ,,.mmmm mmm mama mmmmm mm:D
    i'm free man mm i'm free^^
     
  25. Count Blah macrumors 68030

    Count Blah

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    #25

    With miniscule CPU power increase from generation to generation, it makes perfect sense to buy refurb'd, if you weigh the pros and cons of each advancement. IF you are used to HDDs in laptops, then the different between last gen and this gen's SSDs is inconsequential. If you have no hardware to take advantage of the improved wireless, than that is also a wash. You can go on and on.
     

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