Browser Companies Criticize Apple's EU Choice Screen in iOS 17.4

[Realityck]

I thought browsers were free? What is the business model?

Yes they are free​

(A) How do Browsers make money?​

Internet browsers make money through various revenue streams. Let’s look at some of the common revenue streams of browsers-

Revenue Sources	Explanation
Search Engine Partnerships	Income from search engine deals
Default Homepage Agreements	Revenue from setting default homepages and toolbars
Extensions and Add-ons	Earnings from extension sales and listings
Data Collections and Analytics	Valuable data for marketing and ads
Licensing and Enterprise Solutions	Paid versions and business services
Browser Advertising	Revenue from in-browser ads
Sponsorships	Sponsored Contents
E-Commerce Integration	Commissions from browser-related sales
OS Integration	Benefit from browser integration in operating systems.
Donations and Support	Funding through donations and community support
Additional Income Sources	From services like Mails, apps, docs, etc.

 

[Wando64]

It's so adorable how the EU thinks they matter in world politics and the global economy.

This comment is what stereotypes are made of.

The EU economy beats the U.S.'s—if you look at the right data

An economist offers a contrarian take.

fortune.com

 

[Zdigital2015]

Please market our browsers for us while we complain about it. Get a grip and grow up…most people go with the default browser out of habit, familiarity or feeling it’s the “safest” choice. The is why history is littered with failed browsers over the last 25 years.

 

[Meatwad]

I think the EU was happy when Nokia was the global leader. They also didn't mind BMW trying to force subscription for heated seats. They only have issues when the US companies try to make profit.

The DMA is simply digital protectionism wrapped in a banner of consumer choice. Spotify? Good. Any US-based music service? Bad.

 

[chmania]

I think Europe should just force everyone to use a phone that has keys you click to dial phone numbers and nothing more. It equalizes for all. Nokia or BlackBerry will be the two choices for true equality.

Can you buy Huawei devices? Or Oppo devices, where you live?

 

[macconservative]

Maybe these companies can spend some advertising money and get their name out there more instead of relying on Apple

 

[JungleNYC]

The EU, lol. What a problem.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

"The process is just so convoluted that it's easiest for (users) to select Safari or potentially some other known name," he told Reuters.

Jon, you DO know that your browser could be one of those “known names” if you took the BASIC efforts you SHOULD be doing and making your browser one of the “known names”. Even if someone chooses another browser, if you do the marketing to make your browser better known, people with Safari as the default would seek out your browser, download it and switch to it!

If your primary strategy, as Vivaldi CEO Jon Stephenson von Tetzchner, to grow the usage of your browser, is betting on showing up in a random list and being lucky enough for someone to choose the name of a browser they don’t know, then you’re not being a good Vivaldi CEO.

 

[TigerNike23]

This comment is what stereotypes are made of.

The EU economy beats the U.S.'s—if you look at the right data

An economist offers a contrarian take.

fortune.com

But if you’re a global company. Would you rather be in the EU or the United States?

No offense to my friends in the EU, but money travels further here (for MANY reasons… like no nationalized healthcare, little import tax, no VAT, etc).

 

[gaximus]

If its not happy and investigating… id say its doing its job.

The EU is not some mythical non human entity… it represents its member states, and hence people.

Microsoft went through this 20 plus years ago… and companies keep doing the same things expecting a different outcome.

But it's not people complaining about these things, it's companies, complaining about Apple not giving their company a fair chance on Apple's platform. The only people I hear complaining about Apple say "That's why I switched to Android" because they have choice.

 

[avz]

They aren't investigating how Russian oil and gas is still being imported to the EU despite the atrocities being committed by Russia in Ukraine.

Capitalism works.

 

[TigerNike23]

This has got to be a joke, right?

The screen can’t be alphabetized, because that’s unfair. The screen can’t include the current browser at the top, because that’s unfair. Now companies are complaining about the randomizing of names.

What the heck is Apple supposed to do? Come up with marketing for every other company? What’s wrong with doing the Internet Explorer ballot screen from 15 years ago?

 

[TigerNike23]

Consumer choice is good. If Safari is best browser, let customers choose it as default. If customer wants some other browser as default, let them choose the other. If Apple App store is best app store through a consumer lens, they will use it. If someone else offers some benefit to that consumer, they will use that one. Maybe the App Store offers some benefit for one app purchase and some other App Store offers a desirable benefit for another app? If so, consumer can "shop around"- as we all do for other purchases- to get the best deal for each consumer.

If you have as little as ONE app on your Mac that you got from some source other than the Apple Mac App Store, you should very much appreciate this EU freedom because you indulged in it yourself (where you were able). If you are not in the EU now, you're just NOT able to do the same on iDevice apps... but our EU friends can. Now they get to decide such things for themselves vs. as it is for the rest of us where a for-profit, richest-in-the-world, "company store" has a complete hold on all such decisions for us.

See IE circa 199X when it was the default choice for Windows and- as such- quickly crushed the established competitor at the time and came to dominate the browser space so much that the Apple resurrection under Jobs had to include IE on Macs into the early 2000s. Remember macOS IE? I think it was on Macs until about 2003 or so when Safari finally arrived. If you didn't rail against consumer choice of browser to benefit Microsoft Inc. back then, we might want to think a little more carefully about how we feel about this scenario now. Just because we love this other brand much more doesn't mean the underlying motivations & limitations & opportunism is not just about the SAME.

A group of customers gaining the power to decide what software they want on their own computing tech is equivalent to all of us Mac owners getting to decide which software we want on our Macs and/or from where we wish to procure apps and/or pay the fees for the services related to such apps. If any of us are perfectly happy with Apple and only Apple choices of browser, store, in-app fee processing... that doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is perfectly happy with the same. On Mac, we can choose the everything-Apple/Apple defaults options while the next guy can choose other browser/apps/in app purchase & payment channels, etc. If the next guy chooses different than me, that has zero effect on me... and vice-versa.

And if we are NOT in the EU, this also has no effect on "us"- our very limited choices of browser, no choices of App Store, select app availability or no availability as chosen by "Daddy" and/or how we pay some in-app fees to either split off a big chunk to Apple Inc or let all of it flow through to the creator of the app itself. This only affects EU Apple people and thus it seems THEY should have a say about matters relevant to only them... while the rest of us roll with how things are where we are (because that's the only non-choice we have)... instead of railing how these distant strangers should have to have it only as we have it and/or like/love/worship it ourselves.

As an American, I envy the much greater, very-Mac-like freedoms in the EU along these lines. I'd rather have choices than having a group of corporate strangers choosing for me... just as it has always been with Mac. Congratulations EU Apple people. Enjoy your freedom of choice!

Ya know, this sounds all great and wonderful… and I too wish unicorns were real, but… cynically I know what’s coming.

Everyone will select Chrome or a Chromium browser and we’re basically back to 1990s Internet Explorer where ~90% of browsers are Chromium based.

So much for the “open” internet.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Only if Chrome is better and the general public masses see it that way.

Else, as it is for the rest of us, Safari is default and we're back to the 1990s IE where a very high percentage of iDevice browser use is the Safari browser. Why? Because like IE then, it is the default browser pushed by the company selling the product they dominate.

Note: I'm an Apple guy and I use/favor Safari myself... so no poking the bear personally. If I was in the EU, I'd still favor Safari as browser, still get most apps on the App Store, etc. I'm simply thinking as a consumer FOR consumer interests instead of corporate interests. If Safari is best, people will choose & use Safari. If something else is better, EU consumers enjoy the OPTION to choose & use something else... like Windows users after Microsoft was forced to break the virtual lock of IE "only" for Windows back in those days.

And if lots of people choose other browsers for "better features" as judged by them, the benefit for us Safari people- even the many OUTSIDE of the EU completely unaffected- good or bad- by this legislation- is it will create some push to make Safari better.

Competition works in many ways. No competition simply enriches the lone "company store" seller.

 

[chmania]

They aren't investigating how Russian oil and gas is still being imported to the EU despite the atrocities being committed by Russia in Ukraine.

Into US too.

 

[Analog Kid]

Apple presents alphabetized list of third-party browsers. Browser starting with A is happy. Browser starting with V is upset. Who could have seen that coming?

B, E, O, E, D, Y...

Which alphabet is in that order?

 

[iOS Geek]

B, E, O, E, D, Y...

Which alphabet is in that order?

Exactly. It IS pretty interesting to me that so many people here seem to be missing the fact that the list is randomized. Proof that not only do people NOT read past headlines anymore...they don't even look at PICTURES. The picture heading this very post shows it randomized (as you've covered here).

To the pro-EU regulation people...do yourselves a favor and at least ATTEMPT to argue in good faith...because ignoring the facts and examples in front of you isn't a good look. It also raises some questions about the true motivation behind WHY you are kissing the EU's shoes so much. The EU isn't doing this incessant meddling for consumer benefit...and they're lying to your face if they say they are. Any perceived "consumer benefit" (any of which I am NOT seeing with any of this bs legislation) is secondary to what they actually want, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

 

[TigerNike23]

Only if Chrome is better and the general public masses see it that way.

Else, as it is for the rest of us, Safari is default and we're back to the 1990s IE where a very high percentage of iDevice browser use is the Safari browser. Why? Because like IE then, it is the default browser pushed by the company selling the product they dominate.

Note: I'm an Apple guy and I use/favor Safari myself... so no poking the bear personally. If I was in the EU, I'd still favor Safari as browser, still get most apps on the App Store, etc. I'm simply thinking as a consumer FOR consumer interests instead of corporate interests. If Safari is best, people will choose & use Safari. If something else is better, EU consumers enjoy the OPTION to choose & use something else... like Windows users after Microsoft was forced to break the virtual lock of IE "only" for Windows back in those days.

And if lots of people choose other browsers for "better features" as judged by them, the benefit for us Safari people- even the many OUTSIDE of the EU completely unaffected- good or bad- by this legislation- is it will create some push to make Safari better.

Competition works in many ways. No competition simply enriches the lone "company store" seller.

I agree for the most part with your statement. I do think there should be open competition with the browser space.

However, if 90% of the alleged “independent” browsers are all Chromium-based, isn’t that a monopoly too?

Chromium claims to be “open”, but we all know Google mostly drives the bus. See Manifest V3. Google pushed it, now Microsoft Edge will have it.

 

[robertcoogan]

Why on Earth are they complaining about this??? The phone's screen is only so big. Maybe a good solution would be to put one of those an "i" with a circle that nobody ever clicks.

 

[TigerNike23]

Exactly. It IS pretty interesting to me that so many people here seem to be missing the fact that the list is randomized. Proof that not only do people NOT read past headlines anymore...they don't even look at PICTURES. The picture heading this very post shows it randomized (as you've covered here).

To the pro-EU regulation people...do yourselves a favor and at least ATTEMPT to argue in good faith...because ignoring the facts and examples in front of you isn't a good look. It also raises some questions about the true motivation behind WHY people are kissing the EU's shoes so much...

It can’t be alphabetical, that’s unfair to a company like Vivaldi which would be near the bottom of the page.

It’s the old trick from the days of phone books to name your company “AAA” or “A-1”, so you’d be in the front.

 

[iLuddite]

If u give a RAT a cookie…

 

[TigerNike23]

It was easy enough for anyone to switch to Netscape Navigator in Windows in the late 1990s when IE was the "forced" default... and that was without the additional push of government mandates.

Perhaps the world would be so much better if Microsoft/IE had run unchecked and the entire world was using IE in 2024 now? Even those early Jobsian Macs had to come with IE because it was the "big dog" at the time... NOT by necessarily being better, but simply because the 64000 LB gorilla flexed other bits of tech domination to force THEIR browser on all Windows installations.

Bonus: that dominance led to Microsoft creating non-standard bits of HTML/CSS, which then had to be especially addressed for the next 10-15+ years to make websites also be compatible with old IE forks. Fun times were guaranteed for all... as is always the case when any one corporate entity gains too much of a hold on any one thing.

Credit where it’s due, Netscape created the Mozilla Foundation and started the Firefox project.

Firefox beat up IE real good, so good in fact Microsoft had to rush out IE7. I really feel if Jobs had released Safari when he released iTunes for Windows, we could’ve had a more even browser community.

Instead they released it in 2007, and had a brief moment in the Sun until Google released Chrome.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I agree for the most part with your statement. I do think there should be open competition with the browser space.

However, if 90% of the alleged “independent” browsers are all Chromium-based, isn’t that a monopoly too?

Chromium claims to be “open”, but we all know Google mostly drives the bus. See Manifest V3. Google pushed it, now Microsoft Edge will have it.

If EU legislatures see it that way, Google will be next. Contrary to popular belief, this is not a "single out Apple and only Apple" thing. This kind of thing has happened over and over again throughout history (that Microsoft IE thing being one quite relevant example).

My guess is Apple, then Microsoft, then Google... but I think I've seen a few stories that Google is in play already too. Conceptually, we should just as passionately argue on behalf of those other companies relative locks on their "main thing" as we do for Apple... but why do I think we'll see their battles very differently? To be determined... and probably not very far into the future.

My view is that Capitalism is a game not to be won... that is, no lone company can rise up to be King of a space (for long). While there is robust competition, entities like GOV mostly look the other way. When any player becomes dominant in a visible space, inevitably things they are doing can be viewed as anti-competitive and then GOV steps in to try to foster more competition. This story goes this same way throughout history. You'd think burgeoning kings of any space would learn the lessons and "think different" when they are "richest in the world" and similar. But they never do.

IMO, a possible solution is to evolve the approach from maximize revenue & profit at just about all costs to what I'll call "benevolent king." What is that? Switch from operating like extraction of every possible nickel is crucial and into one where resources attempt to raise surrounding boats too (lift the overall community if you will)... so you don't look so obviously king of a space. Else, GOV always comes for those who win the game and then put all of their now enormous resources towards trying to keep right on growing larger & larger. GOV never steps aside for too long to allow that kind of activity... except maybe for itself where there is basically no "higher power" as check & balance.

I doubt this will be contained to the EU. And I'm confident other major players will be "legislated" soon.

 

[frenchcamp49er]

When will these people stop whining. Now its Apple's job to advertise for them also?

 

[TigerNike23]

If EU legislatures see it that way, Google will be next. Contrary to popular belief, this is not a "single out Apple and only Apple" thing. This kind of thing has happened over and over again throughout history (that Microsoft IE thing being one quite relevant example).

My guess is Apple, then Microsoft, then Google... but I think I've seen a few stories that Google is in play already too. Conceptually, we should just as passionately argue on behalf of those other companies relative locks on their "main thing" as we do for Apple... but why do I think we'll see their battles very differently? To be determined... and probably not very far into the future.

My view is that Capitalism is a game not to be won... that is, no lone company can rise up to be King of a space (for long). While there is robust competition, entities like GOV mostly look the other way. When any player becomes dominant in a visible space, inevitably things they are doing can be viewed as anti-competitive and then GOV steps in to try to foster more competition. This story goes this same way throughout history. You'd think burgeoning kings of any space would learn the lessons and "think different" when they are "richest in the world" and similar.

IMO, a possible solution is to evolve the approach from maximize revenue & profit at just about all costs to what I'll call "benevolent king." What is that? Switch from operating like extraction of every possible nickel is crucial and into one where resources attempt to raise surround boats... so you don't look so obviously king of a space. Else, GOV always comes for those who win the game and then put all of their now enormous resources towards trying to keep right on growing larger & larger. GOV never steps aside for too long to allow that kind of activity... except maybe for itself where there is basically no "higher power" as check & balance.

I doubt this will be contained to the EU. And I'm confident other major players will be "legislated" soon.

Google should be next. If the browser engine they designed has 80-90% market share, and they made even Microsoft switch to Chromium… sorry, that’s a monopoly.

I don’t care if it’s technically not all made by Google. Google drives the Chromium bus and everyone just rubber stamps Google’s opinions.

When you have 80-90% market share in the browser engine, you start making web devs use Chromium-only tech, and users with WebKit or Gecko engines have a subpar experience. In other words, back to 2000 “works best with Internet Explorer 5.5”.