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Build your own Intel Mac?

TechHistorian said:
And since you have to copy the EFI code Apple uses to make OS X work on a non-Apple mobo (either in EFI itself or in BIOS), you are, de facto, violating both copyright and the DMCA. The odd hobbyist probably doesn't have to worry. Any company manufacturing such machines, however, will probably feel the full weight of Apple's legal team fall on their shoulders.
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This is false. OS X doesn't use EFI for much. The original release on the DTK box (10.4.1) actually had a regular Intel BIOS on it and a BIOS bootloader included with the OS. You can boot newer releases (up to 10.4.8 so far, I think) by just installing that bootloader on the hard disk. It's not quite as simple as I made it sound, but yeah, that's all that's really needed. The other thing OS X uses EFI for is to set up certain video card parameters. The video cards in Apple's Intel machines have an onboard EFI plugin in their ROM. This EFI plugin allows the EFI to initialize and draw to the video card and then it makes the technical info it got about the video card available to OS X. Apparently someone wrote a kernel extension that allows use of BIOS-based nVIDIA video cards on Intel OS X, by simply querying the video card just like EFI does, and then setting up the necessary info in the OS X kernel. This should allow you to use almost any nVIDIA card on an Intel Mac as a second card (primary should work, but you won't see anything before the OS boots) or use OS X on a generic Intel box.

The main problems with building your own system appear to be a lack of drivers and the fact that Apple's updates will break your system. For everything to work out of the box, you'd need a motherboard with the same chipsets that Apple uses for north bridge, south bridge, firewire controller, sound, network, etc. Or you'd have to write your own drivers. And then when there are updates you'd have to compile your own XNU kernel and decrypt the binaries yourself, or wait for someone else to do it. You also lose the "it just works (TM)" that you get with Apple hardware+software.
 
Sesshi said:
Sorry, I just fell off my seat laughing.
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You always make the Mac sound like the least reliable computer ever, so much so that it's "hilariously" bad, when obviously many many people have quite the opposite experience.

I touched a PC for the firs time in months yesterday for a class project (one of your beloved Dells, in fact) and about five minutes later me and my classmates were restarting it already. I think that is hilarious. Almost as hilarious as your rendition of my signature.

I just don't get you...
 
It's a bit like fishing stories between two people - where his foot-long fish becomes three, so you can no longer compete by telling it exactly like it is in the responses. My one-liners are of course in response to overblown comments. However taking that same rather odd metaphor further, quite frequently in these forums I seem to be talking with people who didn't actually catch any fish in the first place.

I'm glad that you find my sig hilarious. That, and my link to your sig is of course another such example. You must be psychic - I was just editing it and seeking alternative sig inspiration.
 
dpaanlka said:
Aside from being Illegal, it's also a tremendous hassle and most people I've heard who have done it say features are stability problems and/or things that just don't work period. Everyone's case seems to be a bit different, and every time new updates come you have to find a new hacked version of the update.
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I've used one of these hacked machines and it's a pain in butt. Not everything works right and it took one helluva super geek to even pull it off. Not even worth it, in my opinion. The money you MIGHT save is dwarfed by the time and hassle it takes to actually pull it off.
 
objc said:
The main problems with building your own system appear to be a lack of drivers and the fact that Apple's updates will break your system.
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Incorrect.
I've used 2 OSX86 isos...10.43 and 10.46. I had more luck with 10.43 after the initial install, and was able to update it to 10.48 through Software Update with no problems whatsoever. After the 10.48 update it still worked as well as it did as 10.43.

10.46 I had install issues (that never happened with 10.43).

The only reason I went back to XP is a) no UB CS2 and b) I could not find a way to save the .plist file to boot into 1280x1024 resolution. I could use that resolution (all the way to 1600x1200) by selecting it, but it would always boot into 1024x768 because that's what the boot.plist file specified. I couldn't figure out how to change that. (Well, sorta. I did find how to change it, but I couldn't get the change to actually save to a file...some access priviledge issue despite authenticating as admin.)

As for TPM/EFI, OSX86 installs on any hardware because both TPM and EFI are cracked already in the OSX86 install, which is against many laws and agreements. OSX86 can also install on SSE2 only hardware by using SSE3 emulation. (Another thing I had to do, since I have a P4 3.0c which does not support SSE3 like the Pentium D and Celeron D cpus.)

OP if you want more information, google search OSX86. That's all I'm going to say about it because I'm not trying to walk the fine line of 'allowed' rules here at MR...I love this place too much and can't wait til I have enough money to buy a Mac at home. :)
 
objc said:
This is false. OS X doesn't use EFI for much. The original release on the DTK box (10.4.1) actually had a regular Intel BIOS on it and a BIOS bootloader included with the OS. You can boot newer releases (up to 10.4.8 so far, I think) by just installing that bootloader on the hard disk. It's not quite as simple as I made it sound, but yeah, that's all that's really needed.
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EFI on Intel Macs is equivalent to Open Firmware on the PPC machines. The speciific code for each machine is necessary for booting. Even were it not (say, on the DTKs), the bootloader code you mentioned is still copyrighted by Apple and use of such is subject to their approval.

Put it this way: he can't legally install Apple's EFI firmware updates on a non-Apple machine. And the EFI firmware deals with more than just video drivers ... per Apple.
 
Video drivers dont seem to be an issue on the mac as far as performance goes. There are 3rd party drivers called natit and titan that allow almost any windows card to work on OSX at seemingly full speed which is shown in xbench scores for opengl and QE. It looks like you just have to get your video card recognized, then OSX handles the rest like its a card made for mac. If apple would just do this themselves then I bet they could make a lot of mac pro owners really happy.

The money you MIGHT save is dwarfed by the time and hassle it takes to actually pull it off.
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That obviously varies from person to person and budget to budget. Not everyone can pay their way out of work, its not really any different than people who build PC's themselves instead of buying a premade Dell XPS which costs a lot more. It can be worth the work sometimes. By far the hardest part of osx86 is researching solutions to hardware problems, once you know what to do its very easy and fast and you learn a lot about macs in the process

The only reason I went back to XP is a) no UB CS2 and b) I could not find a way to save the .plist file to boot into 1280x1024 resolution. I could use that resolution (all the way to 1600x1200) by selecting it, but it would always boot into 1024x768 because that's what the boot.plist file specified. I couldn't figure out how to change that. (Well, sorta. I did find how to change it, but I couldn't get the change to actually save to a file...some access priviledge issue despite authenticating as admin.)
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The easiest way to modify system files is to copy them to the desktop, make the changes then copy them back, you have to authorize to replace (then repair permissions with disk utility).
 
Illegal or not the point is mac doesn't sell motherboards and spare parts seperately like pc does. And the ones they use have a special chip that the software detects so it can't be used on a ordinary PC. There are hacks, vmware, etc.

But it is just cheaper to buy a regular mac. Mini 599 plus tax rather than trying to build oen even if they sold boards. Or get a used one off ebay.

Thanks,
invj
 
i tried configuring a lot of hardware on newegg that would basically resemble a mac pro and i found it was actually cheaper to buy from apple.
 
I had a friend who built his own OS X laptop. The hardest part was trying to find the screen with the lines and the exploding battery. :eek:

Seriously, as a hack project, sure its possible. Anything's possible. As for coming up with something that's anywhere near as practical and useful as say, a used G4 mac mini - forget it.
 
Apple does sell spare parts, memory, etc. But they don't sell motherboards. Why would they let you make your own computer for half price which they can't even warent. When they can charge you double for one with apple care all put together.

Thanks,
ivnj
 
ivnj said:
Apple does sell spare parts, memory, etc. But they don't sell motherboards. Why would they let you make your own computer for half price which they can't even warent. When they can charge you double for one with apple care all put together.

Thanks,
ivnj
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They do sell logic boards but not to you or me. That is not to say you can't buy them, though. Also, you apparently have never tried to buy Apple spare parts if you think you can assemble one for half price. Try putting together a $600 Mac mini when the logic board costs you $300.
 
The point is it's just cheaper to buy a ready made one with apple care rather than trying to build you own.

Thanks,
ivnj
 
I have a hackintosh. It's rock solid and handles updates without problems. It's a three years old quad core Q6600 with a geekbench score of 5207.

Is it worth it is another question. I primarily installed because I enjoy tinkering, I wanted to try OS X, and I already had a 24" monitor. I didn't want to buy an iMac or a laptop without having familarized myself with the OS first. I've since bought a macbook but I still use my stationary.

I, however, is an advanced user, and it has still taken me hours and hours to do. Granted, it's easier now, but you'd still have to work at it. Just getting the right information takes time.
 
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