Busting the "throttling is evil" myth

[Ma2k5]

One cannot prove something to be impossible. Things are considered impossible when no-one can prove otherwise.

You made up the claim that the i9 needs stronger cooling.

1 - Can you show evidence where "no one can prove otherwise" has been satisfied for you to believe that there would be bending of the law of physics required? Clearly you won't be using MacRumours as a reliable source for that, so I take it that this has been discussed already by highly qualified people who have reached this conclusion that the cooling system is at maximum potential technologically available already on some other forum or perhaps a thesis you read on the matter?

2 - No I didn't, I stated the manufacturer should test to see if something needs more cooling or not and not rely on any documentation.

 

[leman]

Not to be condescending, but it would be the part where the manufacturer test the chips themselves and not rely on Intel's "marketing" material. I would think in any trade, the manufacturer would do their own testing and not take what their suppliers say as gospel.

I think you are oversimplifying the issue a bit... (and of course they do test it). Say, what would have happened if Apple/Dell and most everybody else would test these chips, see that they can't really reach the full turbo and decide to skip the i9 altogether (which would already be rather awkward, since you'd only have 2 CPU models rather then the traditional 3). And them say, Asus released a thin and light business notebook with the i9. Of course, it won't be able to reach its full potential but it will still perform marginally better than the i5 and i7 (due to its being a binned CPU and also having higher occasional turbo). Then Apple/Dell and most everybody else starts getting heat for "being crap at making computers".

Now imagine a scenario two: Intel releases three tiers of performance CPUs (i5-87xx, i7-88xx, i7-89xx with boost up to 4.5) — like they always used to do, and then an additional enthusiast mobile i9 with clocks up to 4.8Ghz and 55-60W TDP for large gaming laptops and workstations. That would have made the entire situation so much more manageable for everybody, right?

 

[Queen6]

It didn't, you simple fail to understand how thermodynamics work. Turbo boost is a technology to take advantage of the thermal mass of the system. It doesn't need to be considered when designing your sustained heat dissipation.

You think you should suggest to Apple to nix Turbo completely then, as it's just a nicety in your book. Clearly Apple didn't consider the full thermal envelope of the 8th Gen CPU's, so much so they did literally nothing...

Q-6

 

[1096bimu]

Don't need to say anything as a picture is worth a thousand words
View attachment 778681
Guessing being power limited and the rising T2 issue are irrelevant, as all professionals want unstable systems that under perform.

Q-6

What does it say? it's not saying anything. Can you elaborate?

 

[Ma2k5]

I think you are oversimplifying the issue a bit... (and of course they do test it). Say, what would have happened if Apple/Dell and most everybody else would test these chips, see that they can't really reach the full turbo and decide to skip the i9 altogether (which would already be rather awkward, since you'd only have 2 CPU models rather then the traditional 3). And them say, Asus released a thin and light business notebook with the i9. Of course, it won't be able to reach its full potential but it will still perform marginally better than the i5 and i7 (due to its being a binned CPU and also having higher occasional turbo). Then Apple/Dell and most everybody else starts getting heat for "being crap at making computers".

Now imagine a scenario two: Intel releases three tiers of performance CPUs (i5-87xx, i7-88xx, i7-89xx with boost up to 4.5) — like they always used to do, and then an additional enthusiast mobile i9 with clocks up to 4.8Ghz and 55-60W TDP for large gaming laptops and workstations. That would have made the entire situation so much more manageable for everybody, right?

I understand all that and I don't contest any of it. I was merely dismissing Intel spec sheets.

 

[1096bimu]

You think you should suggest to Apple to nix Turbo completely then, as it's just a nicety in your book. Clearly Apple didn't consider the full thermal envelope of the 8th Gen CPU's, so much so they did literally nothing...

Q-6

Why would I want them to nix turbo boost?

 

[leman]

Only at the base frequency, or did you forget that one.

That is the only information that Intel provides in their specs though. Anything over the TDP or base frequency is speculative.

I suspect Intel's technical data sheets will provide OEM with guidance for max Turbo etc.

You think that Intel has some hidden tech documents on these CPUs that they only share with OEMs? Would be rather strange if they had one set of documents in public domain and another one hidden away like that...

It was apparent to me in minutes that the 8750H can pull over 80W at full bore, wonder how that one slipped past Apple's engineers...

Why do you think that Apple's engineers are not aware of it? Or are you suggesting that the laptop should be able to cool 80W, just because the CPU can draw that much? If so, what's the point of making a laptop in the first place? The concept of TDP exists exactly for this purpose — to provide reasonable limitations on sustained performance, so that we don't have to lug a small fridge around every time we leave the office.

 

[Queen6]

What does it say? it's not saying anything. Can you elaborate?

Adequate cooling, allows for optimal performance, or is your thermodynamics a little rusty...

Q-6

 

[1096bimu]

Adequate cooling, allows for optimal performance, or is your thermodynamics a little rusty...

Q-6

More cooling allows for more performance.
There is nothing "optimal" about any of it.

 

[Ma2k5]

You think that Intel has some hidden tech documents on these CPUs that they only share with OEMs? Would be rather strange if they had one set of documents in public domain and another one hidden away like that...

I would hope the relationship between Intel and it's OEM is a bit more than one tech document on their website personally, for everyone's sake . If there isn't some offline engineer collaberation, well that is frightening!

 

[1096bimu]

1 - Can you show evidence where "no one can prove otherwise" has been satisfied for you to believe that there would be bending of the law of physics required? Clearly you won't be using MacRumours as a reliable source for that, so I take it that this has been discussed already by highly qualified people who have reached this conclusion that the cooling system is at maximum potential technologically available already on some other forum or perhaps a thesis you read on the matter?

2 - No I didn't, I stated the manufacturer should test to see if something needs more cooling or not and not rely on any documentation.

Now you, too are arguing for the sake of it. So I will ignore you from now on unless you can present actual evidence or sound arguments. Instead of fallacious garbage to mud the water.

 

[Ma2k5]

Now you, too are arguing for the sake of it. So I will ignore you from now on unless you can present actual evidence or sound arguments. Instead of fallacious garbage to mud the water.

A perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black and a pinch of ad hominem. For those interested, 1096bimu concluded that you would need to bend the laws of physics to improve the cooling of the MacBook Pro - and his evidence for believing this is still a mystery.

 

[Queen6]

Why do you think that Apple's engineers are not aware of it? Or are you suggesting that the laptop should be able to cool 80W, just because the CPU can draw that much? If so, what's the point of making a laptop in the first place? The concept of TDP exists exactly for this purpose — to provide reasonable limitations on sustained performance, so that we don't have to lug a small fridge around every time we leave the office.

You know what's funny, your narrative was a full 180 degrees with the quad core, even bragging of the sustained performance under load, now Apple's lagging it's all good

Point is Apple did literally nothing, when they could have done something, what's the point of advertising a notebook that can only hold full performance for just a few seconds other than impressing the masses & the faithful.

Q-6

 

[1096bimu]

You know what's funny, your narrative was a full 180 degrees with the quad core, even bragging of the sustained performance under load, now Apple's lagging it's all good

Point is Apple did literally nothing, when they could have done something, what's the point of advertising a notebook that can only hold full performance for just a few seconds other than impressing the masses & the faithful.

Q-6

What's the point of having a laptop as heavy as a desktop?

 

[leman]

I would hope the relationship between Intel and it's OEM is a bit more than one tech document on their website personally, for everyone's sake . If there isn't some offline engineer collaberation, well that is frightening!

Ah, well, that for sure — at the same time Intel has been traditionally rather secretive about their turbo boost details. In the end, its up to the OEM to decide what they want to focus on. Its obvious that Apple designed the system around the official TDP, and anything beyond it is just a "free" bonus. Others (specially large gaming laptops) have more conservative cooling with more headroom.

 

[Ma2k5]

Ah, well, that for sure — at the same time Intel has been traditionally rather secretive about their turbo boost details. In the end, its up to the OEM to decide what they want to focus on. Its obvious that Apple designed the system around the official TDP, and anything beyond it is just a "free" bonus. Others (specially large gaming laptops) have more conservative cooling with more headroom.

I agree, Apple prioritised what they wanted to, some will be perfectly happy, some won't. Can't make everyone happy.

 

[Queen6]

What's the point of having a laptop as heavy as a desktop?

There not, that's just the perception of the uninformed my own 17.3" is less than 3Kg, other 15"notebooks are considerably less offering comparative performance and greater portability, I simply opted for the larger display as a preference. If was exceptionally concerned with the size I would have looked at the likes of Gigabytes Aero 15X.

One can equally argue what's the point of a professional notebook so compromised by it's aesthetics to the point where performance and usability are now sub optimal for many...

Ultimately were poles apart.

Q-6

 

[Howard2k]

What's the point of having a laptop as heavy as a desktop?

There not, that's just the perception of the uninformed my own 17.3" is less than 3Kg, other 15"notebooks are considerably less offering comparative performance and greater portability, I simply opted for the larger display as a preference. If was exceptionally concerned with the size I would have looked at the likes of Gigabytes Aero 15X.

One can equally argue what's the point of a professional notebook so compromised by it's aesthetics to the point where performance and usability are now sub optimal for many...

Ultimately were poles apart.

Q-6

There isn’t really a right answer. The thermodynamics of the system apply constraints to the performance of the chip.

Anything more than that is system design. More cooling gives more performance, but typically at the cost of size, noise, and weight. Which is right in some cases, and not right in others.

Or am I wrong? Is there a competitive notebook 15” notebook that is the same size and weight as the 2018 MBPro and has materially stronger performance?

 

[leman]

You know what's funny, your narrative was a full 180 degrees with the quad core, even bragging of the sustained performance under load, now Apple's lagging it's all good

Ahaha, yeah, you might have a point there I certainly won't argue that some other laptops seem to have better performance using the same CPUs.

Anyway, I hope this entire mess will be fixed next year when Intel hopefully releases its 10nm CPUs (or AMD lands a winner with Ryzen 2). I honestly don't like this trend of laptop CPUs and GPUs getting hotter and hotter just because the industry has to "fake" technological progress.

 

[GerritB]

Just a question, I've returned my i9 a couple of weeks ago but I know someone that kept his i7. He told me he's able to run Cinebench and Fortnite on Bootcamp without any of the tools he used before (XTU or others) since the last patch.

Has the throttling been fixed on Bootcamp? Would be great news.

 

[maflynn]

Has the throttling been fixed on Bootcamp? Would be great news.

I haven't tested it yet, I would hope because the throttling is worse in windows. Seems like Apple ignore bootcamp users.

Maybe I'll look into it later today

 

[nerowolfe19]

I don't own a 2018 MBP, but I'd be too optimistic not to curb my expectations given the case's dimensions and heatsink used. There's an inherent thermal limit that's bound to be hit in any high-performance laptop, but Apple's really put themselves in an untenable situation by not investing in a more efficient design to cope up with the high ceiling of the 2018 MBPs CPUs.

I learned this the hardway with my 2012 15" rMBP 6 years ago, and I find it extremely underwhelming that the 2018 MBP lineup essentially has the same basic thermal dissipation solution.

It is dated plain and simple, and hardly on-par with their MSRP.

 

[Queen6]

A more representative rendering benchmark is Corona Renderer as the test duration exceeds the PL-1 (short term Turbo limit) Cinebench R15 on a fast CPU will generally complete the task before the PL-1 limit kicks in at around the 28 second mark. Any takers

Although we're having a little fun here it's also important to understand the why's and wherefores, also the limits Apple has to put in place due to the physical design. TBH I don't see any rights or wrongs, more differences in execution, although I feel Apple could do more if it was inclined to do so from an engineering perspective.

In all transparency I believe my 8750H is very likely to be a binned down 8850H hence it's significant performance advantage, being close to 3 seconds faster on Corona than it's counterparts, similar applies to Cinebench R15 being one of the top performers.

nb. If demand dictates Intel will bin down and clock-lock higher performing CPUs, such CPU's tend to perform way above expectation in comparison to their nominal counterparts.

Q-6