Button set to stay at BAR-Honda

iGav

macrumors G3
Original poster
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
Now this is surprising... I honestly thought that Williams wouldn't back down on this one.

Either way... I don't think Jenson comes out of this looking too good at all.

Rinky dink link
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
iGav said:
Now this is surprising... I honestly thought that Williams wouldn't back down on this one.

Either way... I don't think Jenson comes out of this looking too good at all.

Rinky dink link
I'm glad for Jenson. He was led into this whole mess by his previous management team and anyone in their right mind would have fought to get out of driving for a plummeting Williams team next year (much as I admire Frank W and Patrick Head - their cars may as well be going backwards...).

This also means that Taku is finished as a top-ten driver for at least two seasons.

BAR-Honda have much potential for next year. Rubens could also do well for them.

BTW: For any London F1 fans, I saw on Saturday Harrods has an amazing McLaren window display at the moment. You can get up close with Kimi's car from last year and a gorgeous MB SLR McLaren.
 

desenso

macrumors 6502a
May 25, 2005
797
1
AlBDamned said:
I'm glad for Jenson. He was led into this whole mess by his previous management team and anyone in their right mind would have fought to get out of driving for a plummeting Williams team next year (much as I admire Frank W and Patrick Head - their cars may as well be going backwards...).

This also means that Taku is finished as a top-ten driver for at least two seasons.

BAR-Honda have much potential for next year. Rubens could also do well for them.

BTW: For any London F1 fans, I saw on Saturday Harrods has an amazing McLaren window display at the moment. You can get up close with Kimi's car from last year and a gorgeous MB SLR McLaren.
You can't just jump ship when things don't go your way. I could have forgiven Button once, hell, I could even have blamed his management once. But twice, now that's getting a little bit ridiculous.

Button has no respect for others. He's selfish.

Sadly, I think the dire situation at Williams has forced Frank to take the cash, which in turn lets Button off the hook. Pathetic
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
desenso said:
You can't just jump ship when things don't go your way. I could have forgiven Button once, hell, I could even have blamed his management once. But twice, now that's getting a little bit ridiculous.
No - Button was advised to sign for Williams last year and was advised his contract allowed him to leave in 2005. When that failed, he was then advised to sign for 2006 Williams, by the same management (EDIT: who he has since sacked)

desenso said:
Button has no respect for others. He's selfish.

Put yourself in his position with two jobs to consider. What are you going to do? Take a job because it's morally right - even though it's obviously going to be detrimental to your career? Spend a year or two getting paid well but going nowhere? Or, are you going to fight tooth and nail to get out of it and go with the people who can take you places and maybe even help you win you the world championship?

No question - Do what Button has done. Some bad luck and the odd poor decision have ruined Williams as F1 front runners. It may not be the best thing morally, but Button would have been madder to move than to try and stay.
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors G5
May 7, 2004
13,788
2,870
Sod off
BAR looks like a better place to be, but the bad whiff of scandal will take a while to wear off. Button better keep scoring podiums (or better still start winning) if he wants to live this episode down.

He's had some pretty good races lately, so assuming their cars stay quick the team looks set for a good year in '06.

I'm actually less interested in Button per se than how the '06 driver arrangement will pan out for BAR - Ruebens is no slouch behind the wheel, so the team will have two very good drivers.
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Original poster
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
AlBDamned said:
No - Button was advised to sign for Williams last year and was advised his contract allowed him to leave in 2005. When that failed, he was then advised to sign for 2006 Williams, by the same management (EDIT: who he has since sacked)
Thing is though... no one put a gun to his head about switching to Williams-BMW in the first place.

Last year a portion of blame could obviously be laid at the feet of his management, as you rightly say it was them that suggested it was possible for him to abandon the team he was currently with, and with whom he had an existing contract to drive.

However, this season there is no such dilemma, he has 1 valid contract for next season... one which HE wanted to sign and is now unwilling to honour.

AlBDamned said:
Put yourself in his position
Okay... :) the number one driver in a team that has pooled it's entire resources around me, in a season where I had clearly the 2nd best car on the grid, in a team that is about to be taken over by one of F1's most successful companies and has enormous potential for the future because of that.

AlBDamned said:
with two jobs to consider.
But technically he doesn't have 2 jobs to consider now, he's contractually tied to one team to race with them... he had 2 jobs to consider last season and he made his decision.

AlBDamned said:
What are you going to do?
I'd honour my contract, I've had to do it before and no doubt I'll have to do it again, otherwise people will think I'm a self indulgent ****, with such a high degree of self importance, whom is lacking in commitment and loyalty and as such my professional reputation would suffer accordingly. :p

AlBDamned said:
Take a job because it's morally right -
But he's not taken a job because it's morally (and legally) right, he decided he wanted to sign a contract for Williams.

AlBDamned said:
even though it's obviously going to be detrimental to your career?
Less detrimental than proving you are a self indulgent ****, with such a high degree of self importance, who is lacking in commitment and loyalty and an unwillingness to honour a contract that you willingly signed and were prepared to screw over your exisiting team to sign? :eek: :p

AlBDamned said:
Spend a year or two getting paid well but going nowhere?
Who's to say it would go nowhere though? look at BAR-Honda this season... or Ferrari. It's next to impossible to predict who will be strong from one season to another, look at Williams-BMW in '03 or McLaren last season.

I still think Williams could be the surprise package next season.

AlBDamned said:
Or, are you going to fight tooth and nail to get out of it and go with the people who can take you places and maybe even help you win you the world championship?.
Now, I can totally understand that he wants to be in a team and car that will give him the best chance at winning the championship, but what Button has to be very careful of is that he doesn't end up like Chris Amon, an excellent driver, but who always had a habit of sigining for a team at the wrong time and ended up winning nothing.
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Original poster
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
AlBDamned said:
BTW: For any London F1 fans, I saw on Saturday Harrods has an amazing McLaren window display at the moment. You can get up close with Kimi's car from last year and a gorgeous MB SLR McLaren.
I'd forgotten about that... :) it's rare I go that far west. Did you manage to get any pictures?

Also do you reckon that it'd be possible to ram raid it? :D
 

desenso

macrumors 6502a
May 25, 2005
797
1
AlBDamned said:
No question - Do what Button has done. Some bad luck and the odd poor decision have ruined Williams as F1 front runners. It may not be the best thing morally, but Button would have been madder to move than to try and stay.
Even if that's true, Button made one enormous mistake: he went and whined about it to the media. This entire debate could have taken place away from the public eye, and no one would have known any better. It's not even as if it was leaked, Button went to the press and said that he wanted to race at BAR! His statement was almost the exact antithesis of last year's statement, just replace BAR & Williams. Like I said, "poor management" is a weak excuse but I'll accept it once, and only once. Only an idiot doesn't learn from his mistakes.

Formula 1 has a department for this exact purpose - the CRB (Contracts Recognition Board). Last year, ButtonGate went to the CRB because there was no private resolution. This year, it was avoided because, one has to assume, Williams have been suddenly dealt a couple of serious financial blows. I think it's sad that the only reason this compromise was reached was because of one team's financial misfortunes.

As far as I'm concerned, Button should have been banned from a year of competition for his contractual antics. I have absolutely no sympathy for his plight in chosing his teams incorrectly. For Christ's sake, the guy hasn't even won a bloody race!

It annoys me that guys like Fisichella and Button are being snapped up left and right, and guys like Villeneuve are going to be left without a ride.
 

Counterfit

macrumors G3
Aug 20, 2003
8,201
0
sitting on your shoulder
desenso said:
It annoys me that guys like Fisichella and Button are being snapped up left and right, and guys like Villeneuve are going to be left without a ride.
HA! JV got massively showed up this season by Massa. Heck, he barely beat his rookie teammate to the championship in his year. How many races has he won since then? ZERO. Heck, let's compare them side by side, from Jenson's debut in 2000:
2000: JB (Williams): 12 points / JV (BAR): 17 points
2001: (Benetton): 2 / 12
2002: (Renault): 14 / 4
In 2003 they were teammates. JV placed higher in 9 races (Including Japan, which JV didn't even participate in) Points: JB: 17; JV: 6
2004: 85 (with first career pole) / 0 (in three GP's for Renault)
2005: 30 (plus one pole) / (Sauber) 9 (only one more than Massa)

And for Fisi, he has 2 wins in that time (even if one was in a freak race), and 108 points over the same time span (which includes a season at Sauber and two at a fairly weak Jordan). JB/JV totals, 2000-05: 160 / 48.

Methinks it's time for JV to "retire" and find another series to drive in. I hear Le Mans is fairly kind to former F1 drivers...
 

desenso

macrumors 6502a
May 25, 2005
797
1
Counterfit said:
HA! JV got massively showed up this season by Massa. Heck, he barely beat his rookie teammate to the championship in his year. How many races has he won since then? ZERO. Heck, let's compare them side by side, from Jenson's debut in 2000:
2000: JB (Williams): 12 points / JV (BAR): 17 points
2001: (Benetton): 2 / 12
2002: (Renault): 14 / 4
In 2003 they were teammates. JV placed higher in 9 races (Including Japan, which JV didn't even participate in) Points: JB: 17; JV: 6
2004: 85 (with first career pole) / 0 (in three GP's for Renault)
2005: 30 (plus one pole) / (Sauber) 9 (only one more than Massa)

And for Fisi, he has 2 wins in that time (even if one was in a freak race), and 108 points over the same time span (which includes a season at Sauber and two at a fairly weak Jordan). JB/JV totals, 2000-05: 160 / 48.

Methinks it's time for JV to "retire" and find another series to drive in. I hear Le Mans is fairly kind to former F1 drivers...
I don't mean to be rude, but this is a stupid analysis.

The ONLY fair aspect of this Analysis is in 2003 when they were teammates. However, you'd also have to include the fact that JV had about 7x the mechanical failures that JB did.

You're clearly an F1 fan, so you should know that points analysis reveals absolutely nothing, particularly when people are in different teams. It only determines which car was faster.

In 2003 JV and Button were fairly evenly matched. JV had horrendous luck, Button was Richards' wonderkid and JV was despised. The atmosphere was not one that induced any kind of success, and JV battled through it. Sorry, I don't buy what you're selling.

As for Fisi, he's always been overrated. This season proves that he doesn't have the stuff. Yes, he's had the same kind of mechanical malaise that JV had in 2003, but he rarely seems to be on pace with Alonso when there are no issues. He also makes mistakes.

Addendum: As for Massa, JV struggled at the start of the season, but they are evenly matched now. I think time will prove Massa as one of the fastest drivers in Formula 1. The only downside to this is that JV will be long gone by then, and it probably won't be by choice.
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
iGav said:
I'd forgotten about that... :) it's rare I go that far west. Did you manage to get any pictures?

Also do you reckon that it'd be possible to ram raid it? :D
I'd say it's worth a shot. The SLR was awesome up close - even the quality of the paint was on a different scale to anything I've ever seen before.... :)

Re: Button; Fair points all round, but for me, If I had the chance to back out of joining a team that has just lost their main sponsor, is using customer engines next year (and Toyota after that - woot woot), has been deserted by drivers left, right and centre in the last few years, I would have to do it. Regardless of money, regardless of who thought what about me.

He's living and dying by the sword though and he has to perform next season. With Honda fully behind it, BAR will likely be a major force for the future. Williams will find it increasingly difficult to compete with MB, Renault and Co. Ferrari are a different kettle of fish altogether.

If Jenson wins the world championship with BAR, this season or next, that's what will go down in the record books. In five years time, no one will care what he's done contract wise, providing he delivers the goods and Honda give him a capable car.

If he fails, then he fails and he'll be left wondering if his decisions were right. But he's got plenty of good years left in him and Frank Williams wanted to sign him cos he's a damn quick driver. Always has been.

"Jenson remains as fast as he ever was". Frank Williams on Button, having a poor two seasons driving for Renault 2002
 

JFreak

macrumors 68040
Jul 11, 2003
3,146
0
Tampere, Finland
AlBDamned said:
If Jenson wins the world championship with BAR, this season or next, that's what will go down in the record books. In five years time, no one will care what he's done contract wise, providing he delivers the goods and Honda give him a capable car.
why would people forget jenson's tricks? we all remember how schumi got his first title over 10 years ago. yes, the record books show who was crowned in 1994, but the books don't tell that the title was earned by "ramming speed" rather than winning the battle on the track. you just don't forget mistakes.
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
JFreak said:
why would people forget jenson's tricks? we all remember how schumi got his first title over 10 years ago. yes, the record books show who was crowned in 1994, but the books don't tell that the title was earned by "ramming speed" rather than winning the battle on the track. you just don't forget mistakes.
The two are very very different.

A) Getting out of a contract off the track is chasms away from cheating your way to the title on the track.

B) I think Schumacher has done more than enough to make up for that incident. The record books also show '6 times world champion' and he did most of them supremely well.

Senna also booted people off the track - he is remembered as a legend.
 

MOFS

macrumors 65816
Feb 27, 2003
1,223
162
Durham, UK
AlBDamned said:
The two are very very different.

A) Getting out of a contract off the track is chasms away from cheating your way to the title on the track.

B) I think Schumacher has done more than enough to make up for that incident. The record books also show '6 times world champion' and he did most of them supremely well.

Senna also booted people off the track - he is remembered as a legend.
Exactly. Frankly, I admire Button to stay true to his convictions and pay £20million out of his own pocket in order to get the drive he wanted then go to a team he (and many others) feels is going to struggle next year and for the forseeable future. Apart from the Volkswagen group (who prefer Le Mans to F1 anyway), I can't see any major manufacturer pumping the amount of money into an F1 that would give FW the engine he wants.
 

desenso

macrumors 6502a
May 25, 2005
797
1
MOFS said:
Exactly. Frankly, I admire Button to stay true to his convictions and pay £20million out of his own pocket in order to get the drive he wanted then go to a team he (and many others) feels is going to struggle next year and for the forseeable future. Apart from the Volkswagen group (who prefer Le Mans to F1 anyway), I can't see any major manufacturer pumping the amount of money into an F1 that would give FW the engine he wants.
There's absolutely no way he's paying this himself. BAR will foot 99.9% of that bill, I'm certain of it.
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors G5
May 7, 2004
13,788
2,870
Sod off
Even though it damages his reputation, getting out of the Williams contract is what I would have done in his place; every F1 driver wants to drive a competitive car, the best if possible. I would do whatever it took to get myself the fastest drive I could, and deal with the consequences. F1 is too competitive for a driver to give up a seat (in order to honor a contract) if he thinks he's moving to an inferior car. I don't like it but I have to admit I'd probably do the same thing.

But he needs to perform if he wants to repair his reputation.

Just like people were mentioning Schuey and Senna - if they hadn't won championships and otherwise dominated the sport they would still be villified for their occasional kamikaze tactics. Winning makes up for for a lot.
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
Lord Blackadder said:
Even though it damages his reputation, getting out of the Williams contract is what I would have done in his place; every F1 driver wants to drive a competitive car, the best if possible. I would do whatever it took to get myself the fastest drive I could, and deal with the consequences. F1 is too competitive for a driver to give up a seat (in order to honor a contract) if he thinks he's moving to an inferior car. I don't like it but I have to admit I'd probably do the same thing.

But he needs to perform if he wants to repair his reputation.

Just like people were mentioning Schuey and Senna - if they hadn't won championships and otherwise dominated the sport they would still be villified for their occasional kamikaze tactics. Winning makes up for for a lot.

Yep - he has to deliver if he possibly can. We don't need another Coulthard (best car but driver not up to it).

Also, here's a history recap. Williams launched Button the F1 driver. They took him against much advice and he did very well there. Then, when Montoya came along, they let him go, despite a retaining contract option. They did what's best for them. Absolutely fair enough.

Button then wasted two years of his life in a crap car at Renault. He's done well at BAR then cocked up with the 'Moving to Williams' announcement.

Despite all that gaff going on last year, he turned in some solid performances for them and many people praised Button for being professional in his driving and team approach.

Button was let go when it suited Williams (ok - so he didn't have a definite contract to stay in the main seats) and, he has already lost several seasons in uncompetitive machinery (Renault and first few BARs). Unlike a regular career where you have 30-50 years and could maybe take 18 months to find out if it could work somewhere, these guys have to go and try to land the best possible seats before they hit 35 and are past it. Button is doing what he has to do and he cannot afford to lose another couple of seasons, not to mention the chance of a full factory car. One or two seasons at Williams could effectively end his Championship hopes for his whole career.
 

cheekyspanky

macrumors 6502a
Jan 21, 2004
633
1
South Bucks, UK
AlBDamned said:
I'd say it's worth a shot. The SLR was awesome up close - even the quality of the paint was on a different scale to anything I've ever seen before.... :)
That reminds me, when I was on the train travelling down to Portsmouth I went past the place where they must make the SLR body (or at least the bonnet/hood) as they had about 8 - 10 of them stacked up, outside in a yard. They were all painted up and I was surprised they hadn't even wrapped them in any kind of covering.

I couldn't see a finished car at all, but that bonnet is instantly recognisable.

After a quick Google - "McLaren Automotive has two sites, one at Portsmouth and the other at the McLaren Technology Centre. The Portsmouth site operates as a world player in the design and manufacture of advanced composites, and is involved in production of the complex body shell of the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren programme."

And to stay slightly on topic..I'm surprised Button has stayed with BAR, but I think it will be beneficial to him for the short term until Williams gets more on form.
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Original poster
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
I'll laugh my arse off if the Williams-Cosworth whoops BAR-Honda next season. :p
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
iGav said:
I'll laugh my arse off if the Williams-Cosworth whoops BAR-Honda next season. :p
Well, Cosworth do know a lot about V8s! You'd have to say that it's unlikely though and I think maybe Frank had to let Button go just so he could pay for those engines!
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
Update:

It's now official: BBC News link.

"I would like to thank Frank Williams for accommodating a compromise to what was a binding contract," said Button.

"I regret the difficulties my decision has caused everyone involved."

No details of the agreement were given but a Williams statement said: "As consideration for the release from the terms of his contract, Jenson has agreed a financial settlement with WilliamsF1."
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Original poster
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
AlBDamned said:
Well, Cosworth do know a lot about V8s!
That they do... but not just that, they've had their V8 running for months, and this years V10 is very, very near the top of the power tree.

AlBDamned said:
You'd have to say that it's unlikely though
Well they are leading BAR-Honda this season... ;) their problems this year can be put down to an improperly calibrated wind tunnel. You can never rule out a team of Williams experience and success.

They've sacked their designer, and got BAR's innovative Jorg Zander to pen things. And they're switching to Bridgestones... which judging by the current form of the Michelins might seem suicidal... but I suspect that Bridgestone will be the tyre to have again next season, they'll respond much like they did after 2003, and we all know how 2004 turned out.

I still think that Williams might just be the surprise team next season... it all depends on who they choose to fill the extra seat alongside Webber, I think Nico Rosberg would probably be a good fit... he's looking damn fast at the mo.

AlBDamned said:
I think maybe Frank had to let Button go just so he could pay for those engines!
Probably that... but also you can't force a driver who is unwilling to honour their contract to drive, he realised that it'd be better to cash Button in than have him sit on the sidelines or have a year where he just wasn't fully committed.

That said, I personally don't believe that Button is any better than Webber... (and no where near Schu or Kimi) so I don't think that Williams have really lost out as such, and they can use next season as a transitional one (Cosworth and Bridgestones) to hone new talent such as Rosberg.
 

AlBDamned

macrumors 68030
Mar 14, 2005
2,626
0
iGav said:
That they do... but not just that, they've had their V8 running for months, and this years V10 is very, very near the top of the power tree.
True, but a good engine does not a good car make, though it does help.

iGav said:
Well they are leading BAR-Honda this season... ;) their problems this year can be put down to an improperly calibrated wind tunnel. You can never rule out a team of Williams experience and success.
You're right, you should never write off a team of their calibre but an improperly callibrated wind tunnel? Many of their mistakes in 2004 were team mistakes. I lost count of the times I saw poor and newly promoted Sam Michaels on TV saying they had 'messed up and they would learn from it'.

iGav said:
They've sacked their designer, and got BAR's innovative Jorg Zander to pen things. And they're switching to Bridgestones... which judging by the current form of the Michelins might seem suicidal... but I suspect that Bridgestone will be the tyre to have again next season, they'll respond much like they did after 2003, and we all know how 2004 turned out.
Tyres have been a major issue again this season. Next year will be an unknown quantity but it does annoy me how much effect these damn things have on the championship.

iGav said:
I still think that Williams might just be the surprise team next season... it all depends on who they choose to fill the extra seat alongside Webber, I think Nico Rosberg would probably be a good fit... he's looking damn fast at the mo.

Probably that... but also you can't force a driver who is unwilling to honour their contract to drive, he realised that it'd be better to cash Button in than have him sit on the sidelines or have a year where he just wasn't fully committed.

That said, I personally don't believe that Button is any better than Webber... (and no where near Schu or Kimi) so I don't think that Williams have really lost out as such, and they can use next season as a transitional one (Cosworth and Bridgestones) to hone new talent such as Rosberg.
Webber and Button would have been a good line-up. Very good actually and maybe only second to Kimi and Montoya. I'd like to see Nico in there. They deffo need to bin Pizzonia.

I want Williams to be up there really but I just feel this season could see them go further down the pecking order which would be a shame. It's just difficult to see how they can compete with the big guns.

And, Williams may not have lost out with Button, but Button has now got a lot of security with BAR and a massive investment from Honda so he probably feels he has taken the better seat.

On paper, BAR should be well ahead. On the track, well we'll have see.
 

desenso

macrumors 6502a
May 25, 2005
797
1
iGav said:
Probably that... but also you can't force a driver who is unwilling to honour their contract to drive, he realised that it'd be better to cash Button in than have him sit on the sidelines or have a year where he just wasn't fully committed.
BAR seemed to do it with a lot of success this year
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.