Buyer Beware! Newegg Refurbs!

[lianlua]

I disagree with this comment. "Apple Certified Refurbished Products" is being straight up dishonest, plain and simple. There's no way you can read that and not assume that they're selling Apple certified refurbished product (yeah, I just repeated verbatim what was on the website because there is no room for misinterpretation there).

Simply wrong. "Apple Certified Refurbished Products" has only one grammatically clear interpretation, and it's not the one you're using.

'Apple Certified Refurbished' is a string of three independent modifiers. It means it's an Apple, it's certified, and it's refurbished. It doesn't necessarily mean that Apple did either the certifying or the refurbishing. You can change the word order however you like without changing the meaning at all.

'Apple-certified Refurbished' is what you need to have the meaning you're placing onto it, because that binds the certification to Apple and changes it to having two modifiers. But that's not what it says. There's a possibility that someone might make that assumption and be confused, but it's far from either the actual or presumably intended meaning.

Your interpretation is based purely on an ambiguous misreading of the label and an assumption that Apple is both the original manufacturer and the certifier of the refurbishing. Even if you choose to ignore that and select that interpretation, Apple "certifying" the refurbishing still doesn't mean that Apple did the refurbishing or is in any way responsible for it as assumed by the OP, but at least there you would have a clear case for being mislead.

Should the label be better? Yeah. Does it actually say what you're claiming it does? Absolutely not.

it's flat out as close you can get to a straight up lie as you can possibly get.

No, it most certainly is not. The lie would be an explicit claim that the machines are inspected and refurbished by Apple employees, then signed and certified by the ghost of Steve Jobs himself, when in fact that is not the case.

It's dishonest for sure and absolutely wrong for them to put that there.

...or it's a lazy error on a one-off image header by a web guy who doesn't have a masterful command of English. Nothing whatsoever in the actual product description or terms of sale suggest that it's in any way coming from Apple, and that's where the rubber meets the road.

 

[swerve147]

Simply wrong. "Apple Certified Refurbished Products" has only one grammatically clear interpretation, and it's not the one you're using.

'Apple Certified Refurbished' is a string of three independent modifiers. It means it's an Apple, it's certified, and it's refurbished. It doesn't necessarily mean that Apple did either the certifying or the refurbishing. You can change the word order however you like without changing the meaning at all.

'Apple-certified Refurbished' is what you need to have the meaning you're placing onto it, because that binds the certification to Apple and changes it to having two modifiers. But that's not what it says. There's a possibility that someone might make that assumption and be confused, but it's far from either the actual or presumably intended meaning.

Your interpretation is based purely on an ambiguous misreading of the label and an assumption that Apple is both the original manufacturer and the certifier of the refurbishing. Even if you choose to ignore that and select that interpretation, Apple "certifying" the refurbishing still doesn't mean that Apple did the refurbishing or is in any way responsible for it as assumed by the OP, but at least there you would have a clear case for being mislead.

Should the label be better? Yeah. Does it actually say what you're claiming it does? Absolutely not.

No, it most certainly is not. The lie would be an explicit claim that the machines are inspected and refurbished by Apple employees, then signed and certified by the ghost of Steve Jobs himself, when in fact that is not the case.

...or it's a lazy error on a one-off image header by a web guy who doesn't have a masterful command of English. Nothing whatsoever in the actual product description or terms of sale suggest that it's in any way coming from Apple, and that's where the rubber meets the road.

So basically a simple dash between Apple and Certified makes that a complete advertising lie. Thank you for proving my point entirely. Dishonest without question.

 

[BrianBaughn]

Have you checked the serial number at Apple's website to see what the warranty status is?

I'd still like to know the answer to this...

 

[lianlua]

So basically a simple dash between Apple and Certified makes that a complete advertising lie. Thank you for proving my point entirely. Dishonest without question.

Even with the dash, it wouldn't mean anything. You'd just be one step closer to showing it was incorrect.

There is zero evidence that the label is intentionally misleading. Again, it's a single image link that takes you to a page of detailed product listings--listings you can find by several other methods, none of which carry any such text. As you yourself observed, you didn't even see or consider it when looking at the page originally.

It takes a special kind of crazy to think that one word was slightly ambiguously placed one time on a website with literally hundreds of refurbished products from multiple manufacturers the hope of duping customers of a single brand into believing that their used product carried the blessing of Apple when the actual product listing hints in many far less ambiguous ways that this is not the case.

 

[Cisco_Kid]

Even with the dash, it wouldn't mean anything. You'd just be one step closer to showing it was incorrect.

There is zero evidence that the label is intentionally misleading. Again, it's a single image link that takes you to a page of detailed product listings--listings you can find by several other methods, none of which carry any such text. As you yourself observed, you didn't even see or consider it when looking at the page originally.

It takes a special kind of crazy to think that one word was slightly ambiguously placed one time on a website with literally hundreds of refurbished products from multiple manufacturers the hope of duping customers of a single brand into believing that their used product carried the blessing of Apple when the actual product listing hints in many far less ambiguous ways that this is not the case.

Quit-while-your-ahead.

 

[lianlua]

Quit-while-your-ahead.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[swerve147]

Even with the dash, it wouldn't mean anything. You'd just be one step closer to showing it was incorrect.

There is zero evidence that the label is intentionally misleading. Again, it's a single image link that takes you to a page of detailed product listings--listings you can find by several other methods, none of which carry any such text. As you yourself observed, you didn't even see or consider it when looking at the page originally.

It takes a special kind of crazy to think that one word was slightly ambiguously placed one time on a website with literally hundreds of refurbished products from multiple manufacturers the hope of duping customers of a single brand into believing that their used product carried the blessing of Apple when the actual product listing hints in many far less ambiguous ways that this is not the case.

And it takes a simple kind of blind not to see what the intent was when those words were willfully strung together like that. But yeah, enough is enough.

 

[Archerious]

I'd still like to know the answer to this...

I answered this in another post, Apple shows: verified purchase date (although I couldn't see the date), expired technical support, expired phone support.

 

[lianlua]

And it takes a simple kind of blind not to see what the intent was when those words were willfully strung together like that. But yeah, enough is enough.

Even though there is zero evidence of a concerted plot to deceive anyone and you could easily navigate to the product description without ever having seen or clicked on that image, let's assume that it was intentional. What does that get you? What does "Apple-certified" even mean when you're not buying from Apple and there's no Apple warranty?

Not a thing.

Never assume malicious intent without cause. What would be Newegg's benefit from doing it? They're already priced below Apple, so they don't have to offer any further incentive.

 

[mac00l]

Even though there is zero evidence of a concerted plot to deceive anyone and you could easily navigate to the product description without ever having seen or clicked on that image, let's assume that it was intentional. What does that get you? What does "Apple-certified" even mean when you're not buying from Apple and there's no Apple warranty?

Not a thing.

Never assume malicious intent without cause. What would be Newegg's benefit from doing it? They're already priced below Apple, so they don't have to offer any further incentive.

Law is not about grammar and syntax, is about interpretation.

But saying you are right, it still is misleading advertising. It is claiming that it is "Certified" but it never claims by whom, or what does that certification means.

EDIT: It is even prone to legal action from Apple. Since they are using the exact same words as Apple use in their refurbished store, and by doing so they are hurting their image and business.

 

[Stetrain]

Simply wrong. "Apple Certified Refurbished Products" has only one grammatically clear interpretation, and it's not the one you're using.

'Apple Certified Refurbished' is a string of three independent modifiers. It means it's an Apple, it's certified, and it's refurbished. It doesn't necessarily mean that Apple did either the certifying or the refurbishing. You can change the word order however you like without changing the meaning at all.

"Apple Certified Refurbished" is a term specifically used by Apple:

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/apple_certified.html

 

[lianlua]

Law is not about grammar and syntax, is about interpretation.

Legal interpretation in a transaction is necessarily about grammar and syntax. Some of the best grammar discussions occur in contract dispute decisions by courts.

But saying you are right, it still is misleading advertising. It is claiming that it is "Certified" but it never claims by whom, or what does that certification means.

"Certified" means that it carries some sort of promise backed by someone. In this case, it's a promise that it is fully functional backed by the ability to exchange it for a replacement from a third-party supplier for 90 days.

"Misleading" has a specific meaning about its impact on the consumer. For example, let's say Newegg had a link for "Hot New Products" on its site, and clicking on it brought you to a list of items, one of which was actually a refurbished Samsung TV. Is that misleading advertising or intentionally dishonest?

No. Someone might be confused by it, because "new" could mean either the condition of the items or the length of time they've been available for purchase. Just because someone jumped to one conclusion or the other doesn't make it deliberate false advertising.

Is it a good practice to have ambiguous category headers? No. But is it specifically and strategically designed to convince a customer that they're getting something they're not? No, there's absolutely no evidence of that. If they called it "Apple Certified Refurbished" and provided no warranty protection at all and no refunds from anyone, that would indeed be misleading.

EDIT: It is even prone to legal action from Apple. Since they are using the exact same words as Apple use in their refurbished store, and by doing so they are hurting their image and business.

That's not how it works. It's not a term of art or a trademark and Apple has no standing to enforce it as such.

"Apple Certified Refurbished" is a term specifically used by Apple:

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/apple_certified.html

Yes, it is. And Apple defines it and stands behind it when you're buying from Apple. When you're not buying from Apple, it doesn't mean a thing unless there's an actual commitment being made.

Similarly, Kitchenaid sells refurbished appliances that have gone through a specific process and carry a specific warranty. However, many retailers also sell refurbished Kitchenaid appliances that didn't go through the factory process and don't carry the same warranty. Both are sold as "Kitchenaid refurbished" products, and although that is potentially confusing to customers, it is not by itself false advertising.

When buying anything refurbished, open box, clearance, recertified, remanufactured, display model, etc., you should always be cautious about what you're getting and ask how it's different from buying new, because there is always a catch. Apple themselves have a very good refurbishing program where the only thing you really lose is the retail box and some resale value (if the buyer is savvy enough to check the serial), but Apple isn't the only one who sells returns. Best Buy does its open box sales, independent Mac repair shops often sell refurbished (or "certified refurbished") machines. Neither is the same as buying direct from Apple.

 

[mac00l]

Legal interpretation in a transaction is necessarily about grammar and syntax. Some of the best grammar discussions occur in contract dispute decisions by courts.

"Certified" means that it carries some sort of promise backed by someone. In this case, it's a promise that it is fully functional backed by the ability to exchange it for a replacement from a third-party supplier for 90 days.

"Misleading" has a specific meaning about its impact on the consumer. For example, let's say Newegg had a link for "Hot New Products" on its site, and clicking on it brought you to a list of items, one of which was actually a refurbished Samsung TV. Is that misleading advertising or intentionally dishonest?

No. Someone might be confused by it, because "new" could mean either the condition of the items or the length of time they've been available for purchase. Just because someone jumped to one conclusion or the other doesn't make it deliberate false advertising.

Is it a good practice to have ambiguous category headers? No. But is it specifically and strategically designed to convince a customer that they're getting something they're not? No, there's absolutely no evidence of that. If they called it "Apple Certified Refurbished" and provided no warranty protection at all and no refunds from anyone, that would indeed be misleading.

That's not how it works. It's not a term of art or a trademark and Apple has no standing to enforce it as such.

Yes, it is. And Apple defines it and stands behind it when you're buying from Apple. When you're not buying from Apple, it doesn't mean a thing unless there's an actual commitment being made.

Similarly, Kitchenaid sells refurbished appliances that have gone through a specific process and carry a specific warranty. However, many retailers also sell refurbished Kitchenaid appliances that didn't go through the factory process and don't carry the same warranty. Both are sold as "Kitchenaid refurbished" products, and although that is potentially confusing to customers, it is not by itself false advertising.

When buying anything refurbished, open box, clearance, recertified, remanufactured, display model, etc., you should always be cautious about what you're getting and ask how it's different from buying new, because there is always a catch. Apple themselves have a very good refurbishing program where the only thing you really lose is the retail box and some resale value (if the buyer is savvy enough to check the serial), but Apple isn't the only one who sells returns. Best Buy does its open box sales, independent Mac repair shops often sell refurbished (or "certified refurbished") machines. Neither is the same as buying direct from Apple.

Where to begin from?

Let's go first with the "Certified". In IT certified means that the characteristics of something has been confirmed by someone. It doesn't mean a promise from no one, it means that someone has verified what you are claiming, it can be done by some sort of test or some criteria to be met.

If you are claiming that the certified is not Apple bound due to the lack of a slash, then there needs to be a clear disclaimer of what does it means. Any certification has to be bound to something or someone, if it isn't, then it is clearly not a certificate.

Newegg has since fixed this. The "Certified" is now gone from their website.

Then we have the issue of Newegg violating a trademark. They are using the service mark "Apple Store". How is that different from those stores in China that were trying to copy-cat the Apple Stores with homophones, or image-matching?? Does it have to be brick-and-mortar??

Good for Newegg that they took out the "Certified", because when you mix all the elements, it kind of a simple and straight forward case.

Finally about grammar and syntax... at some point it is discussed. At contracts is obvious that grammar and syntax is everything. But in the specific case of advertising it plays a minor role. Context is more important.

 

[ColdCase]

I've been a Newegg customer for years now, but my past few transactions with them have ended with me less than happy. I have at least one friend that I know of who has also had a less than good experience with them. Amazon all the way for me from now on.

I've also noticed a downward trend in newegg, but Amazon is no picnic either. They both sell some quality products , but also offer crap.

 

[c1phr]

I've also noticed a downward trend in newegg, but Amazon is no picnic either. They both sell some quality products , but also offer crap.

I agree that they both have some products that are on the low end of the scale. Quality of service and customer service wise though, Amazon has been great for me so far. My stuff comes very quickly, their site is very clear and concise and returns are super easy with Amazon (and a total pain with Newegg).

That might get worse over time, but I'm going to enjoy until then.

 

[lianlua]

Let's go first with the "Certified". In IT certified means that the characteristics of something has been confirmed by someone.

There's no such thing as a categorical "IT" definition of anything.

Any certification has to be bound to something or someone, if it isn't, then it is clearly not a certificate.

Exactly, but one less-than-ideal word choice in one image is no evidence of intentional dishonesty or attempts to take advantage of consumers.

Newegg has since fixed this. The "Certified" is now gone from their website.

Good. Then there's no possibility of confusion.

Then we have the issue of Newegg violating a trademark. They are using the service mark "Apple Store".

Newegg is not violating the Apple trademark by identifying the product manufacturer or operating a special page on their site for Apple products. You can't go to newegg.com and then be confused that you're actually shopping at a physical Apple Store, which is what the mark refers to. Even if it also covered the online store, there's no way you can complete a transaction with Newegg and believe that you're actually doing business with Apple. The knockoff physical stores did far more than sell Apple products and use the Apple name.

Good for Newegg that they took out the "Certified", because when you mix all the elements, it kind of a simple and straight forward case.

I agree it's a simple and straightforward case. One ambiguously worded image (not repeated anywhere else on the site or included in any product description or page title) does not a massive conspiracy make.