Buying Advice, 21.5" or 27" iMac?

[Icaras]

So in any one week, if you add together all these milliseconds (or being generous full seconds) how much time will you have saved, and what have you done with it?

We're not talking cart horse versus Concorde when comparing these products.

It isn't miliseconds. We're talking minutes. As I mentioned in my post before, my load time from Apple chime to OS X login screen is literally around 5 seconds. The speed is glorious and I'm not even running on the faster PCIe blade SSDs that are in the 2013 models. There is simply no going back for me.

 

[dyt1983]

edit: To remove personally identifying information not relevant to the thread.

 

[Lankyman]

We're talking about investing in an SSD, not a large outlay by any stretch of the imagination...

You make it sound like someone is investing in a house or something

Surely it's all relative and depends on ones income.

However, I'm not here to be your conscience.

 

[Lankyman]

It isn't miliseconds. We're talking minutes. As I mentioned in my post before, my load time from Apple chime to OS X login screen is literally around 5 seconds. The speed is glorious and I'm not even running on the faster PCIe blade SSDs that are in the 2013 models. There is simply no going back for me.

And I say again that my load time with a HDD is less than 5 seconds because the iMac uses 'sleep' not shutdown.

There again I grew up in an era where patience was considered a virtue. When I was young mail order would take a minimum of 10 days our TV had valves and took minutes before the picture appeared. Seriously, most of you guys would have been having apoplexy.

 

[Icaras]

And I say again that my load time with a HDD is less than 5 seconds because the iMac uses 'sleep' not shutdown.

There again I grew up in an era where patience was considered a virtue. When I was young mail order would take a minimum of 10 days our TV had valves and took minutes before the picture appeared. Seriously, most of you guys would have been having apoplexy.

And again, in my previous post I'm talking about constantly rebooting back and forth between OS X and Windows, which is something that is done frequently if you game as much as I do. Obviously your not much of a gamer so this isnt going to concern you. You should be aware that other people's uses of their computer might be far different than yours.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Lankyman]

And again, in my previous post I'm talking about constantly rebooting back and forth between OS X and Windows, which is something that is done frequently if you game as much as I do. Obviously your not much of a gamer so this isnt going to concern you. You should be aware that other people's uses of their computer might be far different than yours.

Different strokes for different folks.

So it's quicker, but that doesn't really answer my question - why does it matter so much - time is relative. If you were a serious gamer you wouldn't be using a Mac for that purpose anyway.

I've never played a computer game in my life and have no desire to do so. I have of course seen people playing them and quite frankly I would rather would rather read a good book, the whole concept bores me.

I realise that one day in the future SSD may become the storage of choice - fine. But it needs to become much cheaper with increased capacity.

Let's face it with each edition of the iMac becoming less upgradable for the consumer as manufacturers build in planned obsolescence - things need to change.

I was looking at a few videos today criticising the latest Mini as it has now effectively been neutered by Apple - back to dual core CPU, soldered RAM etc. It's not looking good for the consumer, certainly not if you buy Apple.

 

[matreya]

And I say again that my load time with a HDD is less than 5 seconds because the iMac uses 'sleep' not shutdown.

There again I grew up in an era where patience was considered a virtue. When I was young mail order would take a minimum of 10 days our TV had valves and took minutes before the picture appeared. Seriously, most of you guys would have been having apoplexy.

When I was a boy, blah blah blah..

Seriously, we just have higher expectations than someone who's got one foot in the grave.

 

[Icaras]

So it's quicker, but that doesn't really answer my question - why does it matter so much - time is relative. If you were a serious gamer you wouldn't be using a Mac for that purpose anyway.

Sorry but I just disagree. I am pretty serious about gaming and enjoy keeping life simple by running everything on one machine. I dislike all the bloat and hassles of maintaining a Windows PC machine and have no desire to ever go back even if it means this extra X amount of frames per seconds increase. For me the iMac strikes an elegant balance of form, function, and power, given of course you can justify spending the extra money, which I have no problem doing so.

But I am just as serious about the content than any next generation console gamer or PC gamer with a custom built machine.

I've never played a computer game in my life and have no desire to do so. I have of course seen people playing them and quite frankly I would rather would rather read a good book, the whole concept bores me.

So if you're unfamiliar with the subject matter, why do you insist that we have to justify the worth of the technology for us?

I realise that one day in the future SSD may become the storage of choice - fine. But it needs to become much cheaper with increased capacity.

For you it needs to be cheaper. For the mainstream it needs to be cheaper. But I can afford it now so I spend my money to enjoy it's benefits today. I'm not going to sit here and twiddle my thumbs waiting for it to price drop.

Let's face it with each edition of the iMac becoming less upgradable for the consumer as manufacturers build in planned obsolescence - things need to change.

I was looking at a few videos today criticising the latest Mini as it has now effectively been neutered by Apple - back to dual core CPU, soldered RAM etc. It's not looking good for the consumer, certainly not if you buy Apple.

If you've really been around for a while then you'll know this is how Apple's always been. Locking down their machines have always been part of Steve's mantra when running Apple. This is nothing new. Nothing's changed.

 

[RotaryP7]

Still confused as to why they don't let iMac users upgrade their hard drives after purchase while my 2010 MBP can. That's why it's tough choosing an iMac. I do believe I found the one though.

 

[panzer06]

Still confused as to why they don't let iMac users upgrade their hard drives after purchase while my 2010 MBP can. That's why it's tough choosing an iMac. I do believe I found the one though.

Because Apple has steadily locked down their products to make them more like iDevices from a sales standpoint. This forces customers to buy more options in advance and eliminates the 3rd party upgrade options except in some limited cases, RAM.

It's more profitable this way. Apple is one of the most profitable companies in the world so I'd say they know a thing or two about making lots of money off of their customers.

Cheers,

 

[Lankyman]

When I was a boy, blah blah blah..

Seriously, we just have higher expectations than someone who's got one foot in the grave.

We all have one foot in the grave from the minute we are born, some of us will get there earlier than others though no one knows when the appointment will be kept.

 

[Lankyman]

Because Apple has steadily locked down their products to make them more like iDevices from a sales standpoint. This forces customers to buy more options in advance and eliminates the 3rd party upgrade options except in some limited cases, RAM.

It's more profitable this way. Apple is one of the most profitable companies in the world so I'd say they know a thing or two about making lots of money off of their customers.

Cheers,

We have always found ways to get around Apple's lockdowns. However, I think it has almost got to the point now whereby the up-grader is going to have to look elsewhere. I doubt when my present iMac has had its day it will be replaced with another Apple product.

The latest Mini has already been crippled and even the present iMac presents something of a challenge for up-graders. I can at least still get into my iMac relatively easy, but given what they cost, I wouldn't like to start getting the screen off the present models. I'm not saying it can't be done, it clearly can, I just wouldn't want to start butchering one of mine.

If the next generation have RAM soldered on all models and replacing the drives are even more difficult then it's effectively game over.

Given that Windows 10 promises to be very good, even Windows 8.1 is pretty fair then I can see quite a number of people who like to make their own mods going back to Windows.

I can certainly get along with either OS and the hardware quite happily.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

For a man who doen't care.....

We have always found ways to get around Apple's lockdowns. However, I think it has almost got to the point now whereby the up-grader is going to have to look elsewhere. I doubt when my present iMac has had its day it will be replaced with another Apple product.

The latest Mini has already been crippled and even the present iMac presents something of a challenge for up-graders. I can at least still get into my iMac relatively easy, but given what they cost, I wouldn't like to start getting the screen off the present models. I'm not saying it can't be done, it clearly can, I just wouldn't want to start butchering one of mine.

If the next generation have RAM soldered on all models and replacing the drives are even more difficult then it's effectively game over.

Given that Windows 10 promises to be very good, even Windows 8.1 is pretty fair then I can see quite a number of people who like to make their own mods going back to Windows.

I can certainly get along with either OS and the hardware quite happily.

about speed or using an ssd and doesn't game or tax his computer (self admitted) why would you care about upgradability just keep using your old slow computer....

To be honest SSD's are so cheap these days and external and cloud or NAS storage is so ubiquitous that HD size is now a non issue. Espeicially in a desktop (as external USB 3 storage is so cheap) not having an ssd for all the benefits they give for everything you do on a computer you would be stupid to spend as much as you do on an apple computer and cripple it without an ssd.

The Mac mini is not crippled it is exactly the same as a screen less macbook pro 13. These are fantastic little everyday computers that will be all the computer most people ever need.

 

[Lankyman]

about speed or using an ssd and doesn't game or tax his computer (self admitted) why would you care about upgradability just keep using your old slow computer....

To be honest SSD's are so cheap these days and external and cloud or NAS storage is so ubiquitous that HD size is now a non issue. Espeicially in a desktop (as external USB 3 storage is so cheap) not having an ssd for all the benefits they give for everything you do on a computer you would be stupid to spend as much as you do on an apple computer and cripple it without an ssd.

The Mac mini is not crippled it is exactly the same as a screen less macbook pro 13. These are fantastic little everyday computers that will be all the computer most people ever need.

So where has the Quad Mini gone, where has the RAM upgrades gone, where has the access point gone?

Watch THIS pretty fair assessment unless you wear blinkers.

My i5 is not slow, it has 20 gigs of RAM and is active and ready for use in 3 seconds, dock icons bounce once and the app is open. That works for me.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Seems apple loses a dinosaur then...

So where has the Quad Mini gone, where has the RAM upgrades gone, where has the access point gone?

Watch THIS pretty fair assessment unless you wear blinkers.

My i5 is not slow, it has 20 gigs of RAM and is active and ready for use in 3 seconds, dock icons bounce once and the app is open. That works for me.

The Quad mini was an apple anomoly it was available for precisely one refresh cycle and the reasons for ditching it were for production and as the quad cores required a different motherboard on Haswell. A dual core is fine for all but the most proffesional apps and gaming. The mini is not a gaming PC or a desktop for proffesionals it is a small competent media centric device that runs all apples apps speedily and well.

Upgradeability is going, buy what you need and realise that these days the need to upgrade RAM is non existent. If you buy for your needs the computer will be obsolete before RAM becomes an issue. You can't blame any company for wanting you to spend the money on their product and not aftermarket upgrades, they are a company not a charity....

It's the same with cars much harder to work on than 15 years ago, TV's just about impossible to fix, and other computer makers bringing out sealed non upgradeable units.....

This does not cripple a product it just makes it a product you have to spec to your needs when you buy. If you need a car to pull a trailer don't buy a mini and try to beef up the engine or increase the torque buy a range rover...

As you say it's not what you want but your use case (implied as you haven't spelled it out) shows no need for what you want just like it shows no need for 20gb of RAM of which I am sure at least 12 of it is wasted.

Your dislike of SSD's is irrational HDD drives have been the bottle neck for computers for at least 10 years and SSD's mitigate this, it is the best thing to happen to computers in a decade. Not wanting to add a couple of hundred dollars to the price (and it'll still be cheaper than what you paid for one 3 years ago) of an already premium product for the premium SSD experience stability and silence it gives is in my opinion idiotic. To continue the car analogy it's like choosing to have drum brakes over discs with ABS.

But each to their own buy what you like, have a worse experience if you like but don't argue that going backwards is the way forward, it just isn't. It has been the massive adoption of SSD's, by mainly mac users it seems, that has driven down prices and made them a mainstream and now affordable option and soon to be the standard...

 

[Lankyman]

As you say it's not what you want but your use case (implied as you haven't spelled it out) shows no need for what you want just like it shows no need for 20gb of RAM of which I am sure at least 12 of it is wasted.

The RAM was for the VMs I was running. Now I have ditched them you are absolutely right, I do have to much RAM, but hey, it's better than too little. The reason I still have the stock HDD is because the machine is still under warranty and I had no desire to invalidate it.

It's the same with cars much harder to work on than 15 years ago, TV's just about impossible to fix, and other computer makers bringing out sealed non upgradeable units.....

TVs are now a pain to fix but in fairness they have also become much much cheaper - unlike you're average Apple product.

Your dislike of SSD's is irrational HDD drives have been the bottle neck for computers for at least 10 years and SSD's mitigate this, it is the best thing to happen to computers in a decade. Not wanting to add a couple of hundred dollars to the price (and it'll still be cheaper than what you paid for one 3 years ago) of an already premium product for the premium SSD experience stability and silence it gives is in my opinion idiotic. To continue the car analogy it's like choosing to have drum brakes over discs with ABS.

Where have I said I dislike SSD's? I think they are the future for many consumer computer products. They are not a panacea for making a computer super fast. Other components are also large factors in that. HDDs can be a bottleneck but not exclusively so.

I'm not sure where your information comes from that it is mainly Mac users that buy and use SSD's?

 

[panzer06]

We have always found ways to get around Apple's lockdowns. However, I think it has almost got to the point now whereby the up-grader is going to have to look elsewhere. I doubt when my present iMac has had its day it will be replaced with another Apple product.

The latest Mini has already been crippled and even the present iMac presents something of a challenge for up-graders. I can at least still get into my iMac relatively easy, but given what they cost, I wouldn't like to start getting the screen off the present models. I'm not saying it can't be done, it clearly can, I just wouldn't want to start butchering one of mine.

If the next generation have RAM soldered on all models and replacing the drives are even more difficult then it's effectively game over.

Given that Windows 10 promises to be very good, even Windows 8.1 is pretty fair then I can see quite a number of people who like to make their own mods going back to Windows.

I can certainly get along with either OS and the hardware quite happily.

I certainly agree. I have not purchased any Apple model past a 2011. My last Mac laptop was a 2010 15" MBP, went to 2011 mini and had it upgraded it to 16GB, 500GB SSD & 1TB HDD before selling it and "upgrading" to a 2011 iMac with AMD 6970 using separate TB external SSds for booting OS X and Windows 8.1

I'll probably open it up and remove the internal 1TB drive because it's the only noise maker. I'll probable put a 1TB SSD in its place.

My mum has a 2008 iMac. I'll get her another used Mac used when it dies since she never upgrades anything.

For me this is probably my last Mac as well. I just can't see spending that kind of money for a locked down system. If I can find an inexpensive 2013 with nvidia 780 with a built in SSD in a couple of years, say 2017 or so, I might pick it up. I really enjoy OS X so I might be tempted to deal with it. I haven't purchased a new Mac in years. I refuse to pay a premium for one.

It's funny because I switch back and forth between iPhone and Android. I'm on a iPhone 6 now.

Cheers,

 

[Fishrrman]

The 21" display is ok, but once you get used to the 27", you won't want anything else...

 

[Lankyman]

The 21" display is ok, but once you get used to the 27", you won't want anything else...

Sent my 27" iMac back and got the 21.5 inch instead. Despite what people may say, size is not everything. #

 

[azurehi]

Going to the Apple store today to compare 21.5" and 27".

 

[erasr]

Whoever it was who's talking about slowing down and how this generation would have a breakdown at the speeds of post years ago; life changes and expectations change accordingly. You sound laid back and wise but eberyone is different. To want something quicker is not a bad thing, it's shows ambition and high standards.

We can all sit and read, sipping a nice drink slowly.

 

[Lankyman]

Whoever it was who's talking about slowing down and how this generation would have a breakdown at the speeds of post years ago; life changes and expectations change accordingly. You sound laid back and wise but eberyone is different. To want something quicker is not a bad thing, it's shows ambition and high standards.

We can all sit and read, sipping a nice drink slowly.

It might have been me! One of the points I was trying to get across is that for some of us increases in speed are so small as to be insignificant in the great scheme of things.

A number of posters were having a pop at me on this and another thread because I thought that too much is being made of SSD's. They will make certain things quicker but not everything, there are other considerations.

If I look at my own situation - I put the iMac to sleep not shut it down, therefore startup time is around 3 seconds, an SSD wouldn't improve much on that. My apps in the doc bounce once and they are open and ready for use, the machine also has an abundance of RAM.

Nearly all my data is kept on a NAS not the iMac, therefore HDDs. An SSD would not improve that situation. Therefore taken in the round, if one looks at cost, the very minimal improvement an SSD would make to my particular situation it simply isn't worth it. I suspect taken over a week it would be hard to measure any time saved the amounts would be so small.

When you get older you don't bother so much if things take a little longer.

 

[FroggyTaco]

If I look at my own situation - I put the iMac to sleep not shut it down, therefore startup time is around 3 seconds, an SSD wouldn't improve much on that. My apps in the doc bounce once and they are open and ready for use, the machine also has an abundance of RAM.

Nearly all my data is kept on a NAS not the iMac, therefore HDDs. An SSD would not improve that situation. Therefore taken in the round, if one looks at cost, the very minimal improvement an SSD would make to my particular situation it simply isn't worth it. I suspect taken over a week it would be hard to measure any time saved the amounts would be so small.

When you get older you don't bother so much if things take a little longer.

Is it safe to assume that since your putting the Mac to sleep & you have an abundance of ram that the apps are already pre-cached somewhat in ram so they launch faster than they would if it was from a true "off" via a cold boot?

I also would surmise it's worth noting the size &/or complexity of the programs you run. There's ample evidence online from "professional" reviewers as well as individual owners that a SSD has significant data throughput advantage. Especially if it is SATA3 or PCI-E based. Not to mention access times are a HUGE improvement in particular for smaller file blocks.

 

[Lankyman]

Is it safe to assume that since your putting the Mac to sleep & you have an abundance of ram that the apps are already pre-cached somewhat in ram so they launch faster than they would if it was from a true "off" via a cold boot?

I also would surmise it's worth noting the size &/or complexity of the programs you run. There's ample evidence online from "professional" reviewers as well as individual owners that a SSD has significant data throughput advantage. Especially if it is SATA3 or PCI-E based. Not to mention access times are a HUGE improvement in particular for smaller file blocks.

I suspect my most used apps are cached when in sleep so ready to go in an instant. However, the real world slowdown must be my NAS and an SSD would not assist there.

However, for my business needs an ability to have my data on my own closed cloud is far more important than having the Data locally on my iMac.

 

[azurehi]

I am hoping for an update to the non-retina iMac before long, as MR suggests "caution" in buying right now. The 27" is too big for what I do.