Can a Mac get PC Viruses?

[beala]

No one claims that Macs aren't susceptible to malware, which includes viruses, trojans and worms. The claim, which is factual, is that there is NO VIRUS that runs on Mac OS X.

I agree with this: Macs don't have self-installing, self-propgating viruses. What I don't like is how the Mac marketing department uses that in its commercials. To the average user, the following statement is confusing: "Macs don't have problems with viruses." Why? Because unless you're savvy to the virus vs malware vs trojan distinction that statement is misleading. The average user will interpret that claim as: "Oh ok, so I can DL and install anything and not worry about it."

So, I'm not claiming that Mac has ever lied about viruses, but only that the way they present the issue is very misleading.

EDIT: It reminds me of the 5 hour energy commercials. They claim that if you take their product you won't experience any crash. Then at the bottom in fine print they write: "By no crash, we mean no sugar crash" implying that you'll still get a caffeine crash.

The mac strategy is similar. They claim they don't have viruses, but what they really means is: "By viruses, we mean self propagating, self installing malware, but we still have trojans, etc."

 

[BlueRevolution]

I agree with this: Macs don't have self-installing, self-propgating viruses. What I don't like is how the Mac marketing department uses that in its commercials. To the average user, the following statement is confusing: "Macs don't have problems with viruses." Why? Because unless you're savvy to the virus vs malware vs trojan distinction that statement is misleading. The average user will interpret that claim as: "Oh ok, so I can DL and install anything and not worry about it."

I agree. To most people, viruses are the only kind of malicious software out there, plus maybe adware and spyware.

That said, I've never encountered a Mac trojan either, and the only one I've ever heard of is the one that came bundled with the iWork '08 torrent. Maybe I just don't visit the right (wrong) sort of sites.

 

[GGJstudios]

...So, I'm not claiming that Mac has ever lied about viruses, but only that the way they present the issue is very misleading...

If you eliminate all the hair-splitting, here's a real-world test: Take 100 average, non-techie, computer users. Let them run for a month, running the programs they would normally run, visiting the websites, chat sites, etc. that they would normally visit, opening the emails they would normally open. Let them do that for a month on Windows without AV software. Now let them do the same for a month on Mac OS X. Then inspect the Windows boxes and the Macs. Count the number of malware presences on all systems. In the real world, most Windows boxes would be infested with malware, while I doubt you'd have one instance of malware on a Mac. (remember, an average user isn't going to be pirating software from torrent sites).

While you may not like the specifics, it's not misleading to suggest that an average Mac user has virturally no malware worries, compared to the average Windows user.

 

[Eddyisgreat]

The only moron here is the one who thinks that NT = *nix.

I am very literal when I mean you can't even sneeze on a *nix box without authentication.

Windows and OS X are very different in this regard, and beyond other things this is one of the core reasons why the only malware we will see for OS X will have to be user installed. But once baddie is authenticated, there is no legitimate way tell whether its malicious code or a power user or legitimate sophisticated software application (like Photoshop) installing/removing/modifying system files, so the system lets it happen anyway.

Of Course, UAC is an attempt to combat this on the windows side, but we all know how much it blows (and if you don't know, it blows) because of its usability issues.

 

[BlueRevolution]

I am very literal when I mean you can't even sneeze on a *nix box without authentication.

You might want to look up "literal" in the dictionary.

 

[Sambo110]

I'm definitely not using an anti virus. They are one of the reasons I don't like Windows, having them open the whole time, regular scans etc. It's not up to me to protect my friends computers, they should have anti viruses anyway. And I'm not dumb enough to send a shady file to someone.

 

[beala]

Then inspect the Windows boxes and the Macs. Count the number of malware presences on all systems. In the real world, most Windows boxes would be infested with malware, while I doubt you'd have one instance of malware on a Mac. (remember, an average user isn't going to be pirating software from torrent sites).

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the Macs would have less malware (or none at all). Opinions and anecdotal evidence are going to be especially unreliable in this case, given that so much emotion is tied up in the PC vs Mac debate. This is the sort of experiment that you'll actually have to carry out, and not just think about.

If I had to make a bet, though, I'd bet that both the PCs and Macs would have minimal malware, especially since you insist on taking piracy out of the equation. It's also not obvious to me that the average user doesn't pirate anything. At the very least, I'd bet that many people pirate music, which can lead to a malware infection if you're tricked into DLing something that's not actually music.

In any case, I still maintain that it's misleading. The trojan/virus distinction is something that's not lost on Apple's marketing department, and they seem to be exploiting it to their advantage. Here's even an example of someone from this forum who has fallen prey to Apple's misleading marketing campaign: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/794632/

It wouldn't be hard for Apple to tell the truth. Instead of saying that Macs don't have viruses, they could simply say that Mac has less viruses, perhaps even significantly so. But that, of course, lacks the punch of Apple's black and white "PCs have viruses, Macs don't" marketing mantra. The fact that Mac likes to use the technical definition of 'virus' so that they can make black-and-white statements is highly suspicious.

 

[Eddyisgreat]

It wouldn't be hard for Apple to tell the truth. Instead of saying that Macs don't have viruses, they could simply say that Mac has less viruses, perhaps even significantly so. But that, of course, lacks the punch of Apple's black and white "PCs have viruses, Macs don't" marketing mantra. The fact that Mac likes to use the technical definition of 'virus' so that they can make black-and-white statements is highly suspicious.

Thats because its alot easier to write a trojan which drops its payload and makes a background process vs. a program that exploits holes in the system and self replicates I.E. a true virus.

No OS can protect itself from a stupid user. If a user elevates himself when running "funnyjunk.dmg" even though there is no legitimate reason to, the box is comprimised. But any script kiddy can place a keylogger inside that silently installs. That's small potatoes.

You want Apple to put Rape, Murder , Kidnapping and fender benders all in the same statistic, so when people see "number of crimes on OS X" and the number is in the millions they freak out, when it's really 0 rape, 0 murder, 1% kidnapping and 99% fender benders.

 

[GGJstudios]

..The fact that Mac likes to use the technical definition of 'virus' so that they can make black-and-white statements is highly suspicious.

It's not just the "technical" definition; it's the actual definition. A virus is malware that can install itself, run and propagate without the knowledge or permission of the user. There is not one virus in the wild that runs on Mac OS X. There are (conservatively) hundreds of thousands of viruses in the wild that run on Windows. These are facts, not opinions. It IS black and white. Windows has viruses; Mac doesn't (at this time). Both have trojans, which can be prevented with some common sense employed by users.

And the average user isn't someone who's technically proficient. They aren't spending time in (and probably have never visited) Mac or PC forums. They don't even know what a torrent is, in most cases. They are the masses that buy music from iTunes and CDs from stores. That's where the billions in iTunes sales comes from. It's the minority who are tech-savvy who pirate music, movies and software from file sharing sites and are, therefore, more likely to encounter a trojan. The average user has little or nothing to worry about from malware if they're running on a Mac, while the same user would be plagued with problems on Windows.

 

[BlueRevolution]

If I had to make a bet, though, I'd bet that both the PCs and Macs would have minimal malware, especially since you insist on taking piracy out of the equation.

Clearly, you've never had to provide tech support for computer-illiterate parents...

 

[beala]

@Eddyisgreat:
I'm not sure I'm understanding the analogy. So, a trojan is like a fender bender and a virus is like a rape? Why? This is just getting silly, now.

Also, I'm not sure where I said that they should "put it all into the same statistic" (whatever that means). I'm just saying that they should be forthcoming with the fact that Macs do have malware. I'm not sure how that's at all analogous to crime statistics.

@GGJstudios: I'm not sure what you mean by this: "it's the actual definition." Neither the technical nor the colloquial definitions are the actual definition. They are simply two different definitions, and neither is the actual one. So Apple doesn't get off the hook because they're using the 'actual' def. The problem is that Apple exploits the ambiguity between these definitions. So, my argument goes something like this:
1) Apple misleads the customer by using technical terms, where the customer expects colloquial terms. This causes the customer to interpret Apple's statements a way significantly different than intended.
2) Apple could easily fix this. They only have to say that Apple has minimal virus problems, not NO virus problems.
3) Apple isn't fixing this, which leads me to believe that they're exploiting it on purpose. It allows them to make black-and-white statements where the issue is much more complex.

It's the minority who are tech-savvy who pirate music, movies and software from file sharing sites and are, therefore, more likely to encounter a trojan.

Tell that to the grandmas, etc that are being sued by the RIAA and didn't even realize they were doing anything wrong. In any case, this is most certainly an empirical question. You can't just assume this.

The average user has little or nothing to worry about from malware if they're running on a Mac, while the same user would be plagued with problems on Windows.

As I stated in my last post, this is also an empirical question. The answer doesn't seem obvious to me either way. Just saying that won't (and shouldn't) convince anyone unless they were already convinced to begin with. So people on the Mac forums are of course going to agree with you. Take this to a windows forum and they'll say only stupid people get viruses. I'm not siding with either. I'm just saying that the question is far from trivial.

 

[GGJstudios]

.....
Tell that to the grandmas, etc that are being sued by the RIAA and didn't even realize they were doing anything wrong. ..

Just because you choose to redefine what a virus is, don't expect Apple and the rest of the world to follow your definition. Apple is not misleading anyone. In today's world, if you buy and run a new Mac, you can't get a virus. Period. If you want to redefine a trojan as a virus, that's your problem.

And in most cases, the "grandmas being sued by the RIAA" probably had grandkids who set up the file sharing. You're not really naive enough to think that the masses of grandmas out there are hanging out on torrent sites and hacker sites, are you? I hope not!

The bottom line is you don't like Apple's advertising, so you choose to call it misleading. If it really were misleading, they would be forced to change it, based on the truth in advertising laws. It's not misleading, no matter how much you may dislike it.

Clearly, you've never had to provide tech support for computer-illiterate parents...

+1 ..... or the thousands of business professionals I've provided tech support for over the past 15+ years.

 

[Eddyisgreat]

@Eddyisgreat:
I'm not sure I'm understanding the analogy. So, a trojan is like a fender bender and a virus is like a rape? Why? This is just getting silly, now.

Whats not to understand. I'm not comparing physical bodily rape to the intrusion of a computer. I'm using that example since people here have a hard time differentiating between the seriousness of a virus that can compromise a box with no user intervention vs something that happened because the user let it happen. If you want to gloss over the facts and the details presented to you then it makes it easier to dismiss your argument.

Also, I'm not sure where I said that they should "put it all into the same statistic" (whatever that means). I'm just saying that they should be forthcoming with the fact that Macs do have malware. I'm not sure how that's at all analogous to crime statistics.

You want virii and trojans under the same marquee, right? "Malware"? Apple is using the difference between the two to their advantage, so what? The fact remains, my OS X box cannot be compromised by
A) plugging in a usb drive
B) plugging my machine into a dsl/cable modem without NAT or a firewall (See Conficker)
C) being on a network with other machines running OS X because;
D) to date there are no self propgating virii in the wild.
because OS X either lacks the provisions to make this happen ( A) no autorun ) or because *nix doesn't run unnecessary services and leaves ports open for the taking. That and you can't really execute remote code that modifies the system without some form of user intervention.

2) Apple could easily fix this. They only have to say that Apple has minimal virus problems, not NO virus problems.

Would you be happy if Apple just said "OS X Has no viruses, unless you put in your password and install it" because thats the current state of malware on OS X, cut and dry. Well, that statement would be false too. You want Apple to say "While your machine cannot be compromised by simply being or plugging in USB drives, you can still get one of the (three?) trojans that are out in the wild if you A) download bootleg programs from sketchy sites and B) run the downloaded program and put in your admin credentials when it asks for it"? That'll confuse everyone. If you think you've got a case for false advertising why try to convince us, cuz we can't pay you . See how much you can get for Apple's deceptive fear mongering two timing truth bending statements.

 

[beala]

Nothing is being redefined. I'm only saying that there are at least two definitions for 'virus' and neither is the actual definition. My argument only depends on this: Many consumers only know the colloquial def, and not the technical one.

Also, notice that I never said that all grandmas were pirates, only that we can't know either way how widespread piracy is without empirical evidence. Your argument depends upon the premise that the average user isn't a pirate. Mine doesn't. The burden of proof is upon you to show this.

"If it really were misleading, they would be forced to change it, based on the truth in advertising laws." So no corporation has ever gotten away with misleading the customer? This argument depends upon the premise that laws are perfectly enforced, which seems obviously wrong to me.

 

[beala]

OS X Has no viruses, unless you put in your password and install it

Actually, I would be satisfied if Apple said that in their commercials.

EDIT: Wait how is the second one different than the first? ("While your machine cannot be compromised by simply being or plugging in USB drives, you can still get one of the (three?) trojans that are out in the wild if you A) download bootleg programs from sketchy sites and B) run the downloaded program and put in your admin credentials when it asks for it"?")

EDIT2: Well, maybe if I end up going to law school I will try to sue them