Can A Pirated Copy of GB Effect its Performance?

[whooleytoo]

It's funny how the same arguments always pop up when it comes to piracy, many of them flawed. Piracy isn't stealing - it may be a crime, but it's not theft. If you steal a car, you deprive the owner of its use; if you pirate software it doesn't affect the legitimate owner. (Aside: wow.. imagine if you had a car that could automagically clone a copy of itself.. that WOULD be piracy! )

On the other hand, the "I can't afford it" argument is over used too. I remember many years ago as a student I pirated a lot of games using that as my excuse - "I'm not depriving anyone of money, since if I couldn't pirate it, I'd just have to do without". Except later when my 'source' of pirated software disappeared and I had a new (blank) Mac, I quickly found ways of scrounging the pennies together to buy two or three new games.

I remember a survey in MacUser (UK) magazine some years ago, where they counted the number of Mac apps bought by users, country by country. In Spain, the average was less than 1! I think that's the 'I can't afford it' argument gone crazy!

Some things the software companies state are deceptive too. If they see 1000 copies of their software pirated, they seem to think "that's 1000 x Our Price of dollars/euros we've been deprived of". Which is very, very unlikely. More likely, if piracy wasn't an option, perhaps 300 or 400 of those might have paid for the software, and the rest done without or gone elsewhere. So when I see figures for the amount of money "costs" software makers, I generally take it with a cardiac arresting amount of salt.

(And "costs" is another deceptive term. Piracy doesn't "cost" the software industry, they don't magically get poorer every time someone makes a copy; it deprives them of extra revenue. Again, it's a crime, but a different one).

 

[mobility3]

Some things the software companies state are deceptive too. If they see 1000 copies of their software pirated, they seem to think "that's 1000 x Our Price of dollars/euros we've been deprived of". Which is very, very unlikely.

It's good to see some clarity on the issues and that some people are being honest about their usage of pirate software. There are still the holy rollers here who want to pretend they're immune to using or have ever used "pirated" software. I'm curious what percentage of mac users as individuals have actually bought all the software they use (unless they only use their computer for surfing the internet). On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that anyone who can afford a Mac and the connection to download the iLife04 package can't afford to buy it! c'mon...

On a different note... I recall hearing sometime back a story that some software companies actually allow their software to be pirated. It might be just a rumor but I thought Adobe once tried to make a version of Photoshop that was "un-pirateable". What they found was that users started converting to Macromedia. A lot of these users were students who would eventually grow up and pay for software in their profession. With this conversion Adobe saw a drop in their market share in a few years time. So piracy may be "allowed" as part of the competition.

Still, that doesn't condone piracy, but there are deeper issues coming to head though, such as the role of free software vs proprietary. We will likely see this heat up in the coming years and forever affect what "software" means to the global community. I'm sure it will get messier for the industry before it gets cleaner.

 

[Sayer]

Cry me a river

I will never understand how someone can have a computer that cost several thousand dollars, have high speed internet access and still bitch that they can't buy a single piece of software that costs $10-50 one time!

And the "starving student" line doesn't wash either. You get money for your tuition that, based on my own limited personal experiences, often doesn't entirely get spent only on books/classes. Then there is the Bank of Mom & Dad.

My sister-in-law bought a brand new (okay, it was supposed to be new but Best Buy sold her a refurb-as-new and she just found a person's files embedded in WindozeXP all over it and was rather un-pleased) laptop with her school loan/grants AND all of her books AND some other non-school stuff.

When "starving students" asked for a free copy of something I have always turned them down. It was either for something outrageous like asking for a free copy that cost only $10 or *less* or they were more likely a lazy pirate looking for a free reg code. I'd like to see them try that at a restaurant or the grocery store, good luck with that.

 

[jxyama]

It's funny how the same arguments always pop up when it comes to piracy, many of them flawed. Piracy isn't stealing - it may be a crime, but it's not theft.

it's also funny how many like to play (what i consider) semantics game and insist that piracy is not theft.

you are denying the company of the revenue its entitled to. yeah, sure, they still have the copy of the software but they don't have the money, so who stole the money?

sounds like theft to me, as far as software companies are concerned. besides, i don't think any of the arguments are "flawed" in the sense they depend on piracy strictly being theft.

Some things the software companies state are deceptive too.

why is it deceiving. i understand your point about not all of the pirate copies would have been purchased. however, that's all they know, so that's what they will state. what do you want the companies to do? do a comprehensive study on how many of the pirates would have actually purchased?

(And "costs" is another deceptive term. Piracy doesn't "cost" the software industry, they don't magically get poorer every time someone makes a copy; it deprives them of extra revenue. Again, it's a crime, but a different one).

right, "extra revenue." you aren't ever going to become a business executive, i guess.

board: "why is our profit down?"
exec: "oh, it's down but it's ok. our decline in 'revenue' is not really real, they are due to piracy. we lost just the 'extra revenue' anyway."

 

[whooleytoo]

you are denying the company of the revenue its entitled to. yeah, sure, they still have the copy of the software but they don't have the money, so who stole the money?

But that's precisely the point I was making. No money was stolen. A potential source of revenue was denied them, by illegal means. That's very, very different.

I wouldn't dream of belittling piracy. But fallacious statements from software makers and their representive bodies annoy me just as much.

 

[jxyama]

But that's precisely the point I was making. No money was stolen. A potential source of revenue was denied them, by illegal means. That's very, very different.

this is all semantics. yes, software companies may "inflate" their damages to make their point across, but i think "potential" is a wrong word here. there is no potential - potential seems to imply that there's some room left for realization, which, in this case, means additional revenue - but we all know that ain't gonna happen. the pirate is very unlikely to pay up for the copy. (buying a legal copy later isn't the same - that payment is for that legal copy. the fact remains a pirate copy wasn't paid for.)

no, piracy isn't EXACTLY like theft. we both agree it's a crime and i feel pointing out the differences is a lame exercise in precision semantics.

 

[whooleytoo]

but i think "potential" is a wrong word here. there is no potential - potential seems to imply that there's some room left for realization, which, in this case, means additional revenue - but we all know that ain't gonna happen. the pirate is very unlikely to pay up for the copy. (buying a legal copy later isn't the same - that payment is for that legal copy. the fact remains a pirate copy wasn't paid for.)

Actually, I chose that word deliberately. To software makers, every pirated copy is considered one sale lost. More honestly and (significantly) more accurately, it's one potential sale lost. There's absolutely no guarantee that any pirate-proof form of copy protection would turn all those ex-pirates into paying customers. Losing a sale you never were going to get doesn't cost you anything.

Software makers have 'right' on their side, they don't need hype and hyperbole to bolster their case.

 

[sonicbaz]

Hands up anyone that has bought software and been RIPPED off with MAJOR bugs?

#1 reason to DL warez is to check out the software. Demos and time limited trials are a joke, sometimes you need to try the real thing and for LONGER than 30 days people.

Like many I've seen my fair share of bad buggy pathetic EXPENSIVE software, but if I like something I will buy it, I want the patches upgrades and support!

Frankly it's good illeagal software exists, otherwise I would be sitting here with Cubase and wondering why the timing is crap.

A LEGAL Logic user

 

[jxyama]

Losing a sale you never were going to get doesn't cost you anything.

true, but i still argue that it's not the responsibility of the software maker to conduct a study on this. they are the ones who are losing anything.

another point i'd like to add is that people behave differently when things are free as opposed to not free.

yes, it's very true that not all pirates would have bought a copy if they couldn't pirate. absolutely no debate about that. and people would pirate more if it's free. even programs they don't need, they will pirate. even programs that cost very little, they will pirate. (GB, for example, in the orig. post. it's $50. cut the beer for a week or two or eat sandwiches instead of eating out and you have that...)

you are right, it's probably unnecessary for software companies to "hype" the damages, but i don't see what else they could do...? they are losing something and stockholders do and will insist that they at least try to address the problem. marketing/hyping the problem to try to steer the public opinion toward you is one way.

 

[whooleytoo]

you are right, it's probably unnecessary for software companies to "hype" the damages, but i don't see what else they could do...? they are losing something and stockholders do and will insist that they at least try to address the problem. marketing/hyping the problem to try to steer the public opinion toward you is one way.

You're making fair points.

The one thing I wonder about though, when you see press releases saying "Piracy cost software industry $X billion dollars this year", won't that just cause the reaction: "They make HOW much?? Wow, they really won't miss my few dollars so.. "

 

[rt_brained]

There is built-in protection in GarageBand that makes pirated copies take over your computer and slowly melt the Hard Drive, Graphics card, and logic board. If you do not immediately format the hard drive, you will have 100% data and hardware loss. Do not back anything up or the problem will return, it has been built into the headers of ALL of your documents.

Does anyone know how to remove GarageBand quickly? Uhhh, my friend has it on his computer and just realized he needs to take it off right away.

 

[jxyama]

The one thing I wonder about though, when you see press releases saying "Piracy cost software industry $X billion dollars this year", won't that just cause the reaction: "They make HOW much?? Wow, they really won't miss my few dollars so.. "

yeah, no kidding. also reminds me of martha stewart. why did she do what she did just to save a few hundred thousand dollars when she's already got millions?

when numbers involved are so much greater than what we (most of us, i assume) are used to, it's hard to put logic on it...

anyway, i find this thread quite funny. i realize it's pseudo anonymous, but why would you come out and ask the "public" about pirated software?

"my friend" just robbed a bank, but "he" is afraid that the bills are sequenced and might be traced. are there any hints on how to make "his" money useful without being caught?

again, it's not the same as pirating, but you get my point.

 

[Earendil]

If you don't handicap the free version in some way (even something such as adding a watermark), how do you get any of the pros to actually buy it?

I never said "free". And to answer you second question, let me quote a post I made a few posts back.

"The Perfect scenario would be to have 2 identical versions of a program. One for professionals, and one for home (none profit) work. Then, somehow have the program tag the work and (for those that are looking) scream out electronically "I'm none profit!". In this way you can have the money making professionals using Maya (or whatever) for their large pay checks pay the very small $1000 work expense, and have those that are learning and use it at home (or education) use it for, say, $50 or $100.
"

 

[Earendil]

I will never understand how someone can have a computer that cost several thousand dollars, have high speed internet access and still bitch that they can't buy a single piece of software that costs $10-50 one time!

And the "starving student" line doesn't wash either. You get money for your tuition that, based on my own limited personal experiences, often doesn't entirely get spent only on books/classes. Then there is the Bank of Mom & Dad.

I suppose before you start making arguments, you should try and read the detailed facts concerning what the other side is saying.

Aside from the original poster, most people here are talking about the "Art" programs of PS, FC, And perhaps Maya. All of these programs cost between $500-$1000, which is a huge chunk of an $1000 computer spending limit. Also most of the arguments are being made for students, who don't pay for internet access (at least directly or by choice). The students are also the future users of future products by Adobe, Apple, Macromedia (and whoever makes Maya). If they can't afford to learn, how are they going to be future users? I'm not talking about 100% of students here, because some have labs, and some have $500 of cash that just floats around.

Most students get into college with a large loan that they then don't even try and pay back before they are out of college.

And I'm not sure where you get off saying people can just go ask their parents for that kind of cash. Is that a joke, or are you really that ignorant of the financial situation that most (even american) families are in? I don't mean to be rude, just extremely curious.

I'm not condoning piracy, I'm just pointing out the problems with the current system. For my own part, I am NOT in a situation where I can come close to affording one of those programs, yet I really want to learn and become familiar with it so I can use it in a future career. I swore to myself that the day I start making money with the program, is the day I'll pay the $500 for it. Until then though I have two choices, give up on ever becoming proficient with it, go into another line of work (and the software company will lose a costumer) or else continue to find "alternate" means of educating myself, and in time pay for said program with a paycheck that came from my use of that program.
In my case it's more of a "loan" to go along side the rest of my loans because if I ever use the software, it WILL get paid for, just not at the time of "purchase".

But, see my previous post for my idea of the "ideal" software world.

Tyler
Earendil
-Would be shot on site if he asked for $500 (let alone a $1000) from his parents.

 

[johnnyjibbs]

I never said "free". And to answer you second question, let me quote a post I made a few posts back.

"The Perfect scenario would be to have 2 identical versions of a program. One for professionals, and one for home (none profit) work. Then, somehow have the program tag the work and (for those that are looking) scream out electronically "I'm none profit!". In this way you can have the money making professionals using Maya (or whatever) for their large pay checks pay the very small $1000 work expense, and have those that are learning and use it at home (or education) use it for, say, $50 or $100.
"

I don't understand the 'tagging' system. Are you meaning a watermark? That's the only thing that would prevent pros from using the software.

 

[whooleytoo]

"my friend" just robbed a bank, but "he" is afraid that the bills are sequenced and might be traced. are there any hints on how to make "his" money useful without being caught?

Ooh! "My friend" can help you there! Just check out "my friend's" profile on macrumors.com for contact details!

 

[jxyama]

I'm not condoning piracy, I'm just pointing out the problems with the current system. For my own part, I am NOT in a situation where I can come close to affording one of those programs, yet I really want to learn and become familiar with it so I can use it in a future career.

personally, all i ask is that if you pirate, just accept that you are doing some thing illegal and not make excuses or justifications. i hate these efforts to legitimize something that is illegal, period. if you need an excuse for yourself, fine, but don't bother publicizing about it.

as long as you are making excuses, you are conditionally condoning piracy. "oh, i think and i know it's wrong. but i need to make exceptions for myself because of blah, blah" - that sounds like condoning to me.

 

[hulugu]

Don't steal software!

I had an earlier post about problem but this is different. My friend has an old 15 inch PowerBook, I think Its about a 1GHz, but he got a pirated copy or whatever you want to call it of GarageBand. It worked well until he actually used it. The performance was lacking, it froze alot. He doesn't really use the program that much because its almost useless.

-Can A pirated Copy of GarageBand have lacking performance and freeze alot?

Thanks.

Yes it does, often times Toast .dmgs loose parts of the compressed data and thereby give you a mediocre install; tell you friend to buy iLife and quit pirating software. It's wrong, it's illegal, and it hurts Apple developers.

 

[Earendil]

I don't understand the 'tagging' system. Are you meaning a watermark? That's the only thing that would prevent pros from using the software.

Not quite, and no it isn't the only thing that would keep pros from using it. Hovering hunter drones that seek and destroy everyone that uses the software without paying for it might work too

But a more practical, though not implemented and probably won't be for a few years, would be a system to track software that was and wasn't "profit" software. And even more importantly, track the WORK produced by that "profit" or "none profit" piece of software. If every piece of work had to check in with some automated system before it could be distributed, you could theoretically make sure (to an extent) that people followed the "Agreement" that nobody reads

I believe Codewarrior had an agreement where the educational discount made the software within reach of education, at like $50 or $100 (I forget now, but I bought it) while the full version is like, $500? There were no handicaps to the Educational version, except for the agreement that you wouldn't profit from it. Now THAT is the system I want to see, the problem is the software companies need to find a way of keeping people to the agreement, by somehow electronically tagging work as profit or none profit.

Anyone following me?

Tyler
Earendil

 

[hulugu]

I suppose before you start making arguments, you should try and read the detailed facts concerning what the other side is saying.

Aside from the original poster, most people here are talking about the "Art" programs of PS, FC, And perhaps Maya. All of these programs cost between $500-$1000, which is a huge chunk of an $1000 computer spending limit. Also most of the arguments are being made for students, who don't pay for internet access (at least directly or by choice). The students are also the future users of future products by Adobe, Apple, Macromedia (and whoever makes Maya). If they can't afford to learn, how are they going to be future users? I'm not talking about 100% of students here, because some have labs, and some have $500 of cash that just floats around....I'm not condoning piracy, I'm just pointing out the problems with the current system. For my own part, I am NOT in a situation where I can come close to affording one of those programs, yet I really want to learn and become familiar with it so I can use it in a future career. I swore to myself that the day I start making money with the program, is the day I'll pay the $500 for it. Until then though I have two choices, give up on ever becoming proficient with it, go into another line of work (and the software company will lose a costumer) or else continue to find "alternate" means of educating myself, and in time pay for said program with a paycheck that came from my use of that program....In my case it's more of a "loan" to go along side the rest of my loans because if I ever use the software, it WILL get paid for, just not at the time of "purchase".

Just to poke a few holes in your argument. First, many of these companies offer educational discounts or student versions of their software. Or in the case of Maya the Personal Learning Edition which is free and can be downloaded; personally, I bought Adobe Photoshop for 250.00, but you can always buy the older used version of the software and learn the basics of any program and then upgrade for less than the new version. Students need to be more creative, not criminal.
Furthermore, you argument has a problem, eg:
I want to learn digital photography, but I can't afford a new camera. So I go to the nearest Best Buy and steal the camera. Obviously when I become proficient I will be a digital camera buyer and future customer and therefore I'm just using "alternate" means. In fact, if I get caught I will tell the Best Buy security goon that it is more of a "loan."
The reason software piracy is okay is because of its perceived value: because IP and the associate 1 and Os that make up a program are abstractions it makes it easier to consider them worthless, however a camera or a laptop is not an abstraction, but a physical object and therefore holds some value just because of its materials. We accept that books have value, but we fail to realize that we are not paying for the binding, the cover, but rather the writers expression or their Intellectual Property (IP); software has the same problem.
In the case

 

[Earendil]

personally, all i ask is that if you pirate, just accept that you are doing some thing illegal

I have. And for being the only thing that you ask, you sure have spent a lot of time replying to posts when NO one has said that Piracy is Legal.

and not make excuses or justifications. i hate these efforts to legitimize something that is illegal, period. if you need an excuse for yourself, fine, but don't bother publicizing about it.

I am not making "excuses" (3."To serve as justification for"), I am explaining while I commit this illegal act, and how I plan to partially correct it. I'm displaying the flip side to the example of kids who can get these programs legally with money from their parents.

as long as you are making excuses, you are conditionally condoning piracy. "oh, i think and i know it's wrong. but i need to make exceptions for myself because of blah, blah" - that sounds like condoning to me.

Well you're wrong. I'm not. I would never tell or ask anyone to pirate software. In fact in this thread I'm suggesting ways to STOP piracy, and help the software companies, while making it harder to pirate without being caught. The only time I ever "pirated" software that cost less than $100 were a few shareware/trial versions of programs back in the OS8.6 days when I was 13 and thought I was cool because I could find the invisible prefs

Tyler
Earendil

 

[tomf87]

That's awesome!! How about telling that to the Apple Retail Store while you're walking out with a Dual G5! Oh, I will buy it later, I promise.

Just another way to make it sound like they're doing something right. How about getting into an educational program that teaches you the things you need to know, so you won't have to pirate?

 

[Snarf!]

The student version could have lesser features than the pro version. Like logic express contra logic pro. Theyre both great but there are alot more options in the PRO version. the express version is one third of the pro version. Also even more discount could be added if the buyer could produce a valid current proof that he infact is a student at a qualifying school. ( if your`taking classes to be a plumber, you don`t get the discount.. if youre studying something music/computer related you get the discount..)

This would probaly be pirated in some way too, but its better than EVERYBODy pirating software, and thus ruining the mac plattform for us who DO pay for everything.

 

[tomf87]

... For my own part, I am NOT in a situation where I can come close to affording one of those programs, yet I really want to learn and become familiar with it so I can use it in a future career. I swore to myself that the day I start making money with the program, is the day I'll pay the $500 for it. Until then though I have two choices, give up on ever becoming proficient with it, go into another line of work (and the software company will lose a costumer) or else continue to find "alternate" means of educating myself, and in time pay for said program with a paycheck that came from my use of that program.
In my case it's more of a "loan" to go along side the rest of my loans because if I ever use the software, it WILL get paid for, just not at the time of "purchase".

But, see my previous post for my idea of the "ideal" software world.

Tyler
Earendil
-Would be shot on site if he asked for $500 (let alone a $1000) from his parents.

I thought you only pirated software when you were 13 back in OS 8.6 days?

 

[Earendil]

Just to poke a few holes in your argument. First, many of these companies offer educational discounts or student versions of their software.[/i]

So obviously I'm not talking about them
I think though that my original idea went a bit above this...

*snip*

Furthermore, you argument has a problem, eg:
I want to learn digital photography, but I can't afford a new camera. So I go to the nearest Best Buy and steal the camera. Obviously when I become proficient I will be a digital camera buyer and future customer and therefore I'm just using "alternate" means. In fact, if I get caught I will tell the Best Buy security goon that it is more of a "loan."

I am not so naive as to think anything I say would defend me in court. Their may be better examples, but that isn't a great one. You can pick up "used" film cameras for next to nothing these days. And unlike software, Film hasn't changed in the least bit in the last 50 years. Skip two versions of a piece of software and you're talking a big difference in functionality, not to mention it may be outdated on a system or not even supported.

But people have sidetracked and picked apart my original post so that I am defending something that wasn't even my point. How about we go back to coming up with ideas as to how things could be made better? I think I may be one of the very few on this thread that has done that so far, while other people insist on preaching the gospel to the wrong doers.

Tyler
Earendil