Can Boot Camp run on an ODD_SATA connected disk in a 2010 Mac Pro?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by Riot Nrrrd, Mar 20, 2011.

  1. Riot Nrrrd macrumors regular

    Riot Nrrrd

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    #1
    Didn't do too well with my last post - no answers. I'll keep this simple:

    I have a Mid 2010 MacPro5,1 3.33GHz 6-core Westmere Mac Pro.

    It has an Apple RAID card installed and 2 TB internal drives in all 4 drive bays.

    I want to know this: If I put an SSD into the 2nd/unused Optical drive bay and hook it up to the unused SATA port, whether Boot Camp/Windows 7 will work with this arrangement? :confused:

    [Research so far has shown me that this wasn't possible in the past without a fair amount of kludging involving buying kits to run SATA cables out from the iPass connector, etc. Hoping that is no longer the case with the 2010 Mac Pros.]
     
  2. Joshuarocks macrumors 6502

    Joshuarocks

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    #2
    Hi, Nanofrog knows more about this, but I will tell you the Apple Raid card will NOT work under windows or bootcamp for that matter. The card was specifically designed to work under mac os x and apple operating systems.. For what you want to do with it, you will need a 3rd party RAID card for bootability in Windows 7 or to Windows 7.

    Ask Nanofrog, as he is familiar with this.. Plus, from what he has said the Apple Raid Card is over priced hunk of junk which is not reliable either.. I guess I can say: Caveat Emptor.
     
  3. Riot Nrrrd thread starter macrumors regular

    Riot Nrrrd

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    #3
    I'm aware that Windows won't work with the disks on the RAID card; that's why I asked about hooking a drive to the 2nd optical drive ODD_SATA port :)

    I'm going to put my music/videos/movies/photos on the RAID-attached drives; I won't let Windows have access to those. Just want to find out if there's some way to have some kind of bootable Windows/Boot Camp setup given these constraints.
     
  4. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #4
    The 2009/10 systems are different internally than the '06 - 08 systems, as there's no longer unused ODD_SATA ports. Rather each optical bay has it's own backplane connector (data + power in a single connector). This is actually easier, as you don't have to route SATA cables.

    More importantly, it's also able to boot OS X, Windows, or Linux as it's on the system's SATA controller (aka ICH). There's another thread or two in here that explains how to get Windows working with AHCI, though I seem to recall that your system already supports AHCI on those ports. Either way, it's possible (just do a search and you should find it). ;)

    Assuming you mean to use this disk exclusively for Windows, you don't need to run the Boot Camp utility (partition tool for sharing OS X and Windows on a single drive).

    The BC disk does contain the Windows drivers (particularly those for wireless functionality), so you may need to run that if Windows can't find them (or you won't be able to use the keyboard or mouse without the drivers on the BC disk for example).

    As per the RAID card, it's an expensive pile of junk (slow, only 4 ports, and only works with OS X). So it will not work with Windows or Linux at all (no drivers). But as long as this isn't a problem (get the impression it's not), you'll be fine.

    Hope this helps. :)
     
  5. Cmd-the-World macrumors regular

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    #5
    The set up should work. I set up my quad 2010 model with an SSD for Windows 7 in the optical bay.

    This thread should be of help to you:
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1108495&highlight=

    As nanofrog said you don't need Boot Camp. However it is important to remove all other disks during the installation as Windows would refuse to install.
     
  6. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #6
    I was too lazy to search for it and link it. :eek: :p

    It might be a good idea to pull the RAID card as well for the Windows installation.
     
  7. Riot Nrrrd thread starter macrumors regular

    Riot Nrrrd

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    #7
    Yes it does! :)

    Thanks nanofrog & Cmd-the-World. I'm glad I got a 2010 model rather than an older one where it's much more of a pain.

    I went into System Profiler last night and it said all the SATA ports were set to AHCI already?

    As much as I'd love to have a separate Windows disk, with only one ODD drive bay available I was basically looking to 'port' my existing MacBook Pro 320 GB internal (with 2 Boot Camp partitions for Windows XP SP3 & Windows 7) onto a new, spiffy 240-256 GB SSD boot volume and have everything Still Work.

    Last night I booted from the Windows 7 Ultimate DVD and it came up (so far so good) and, as expected, said it saw no disk drives (because of the RAID).

    Thanks for the suggestion on pulling the Apple RAID card/disks. I'm actually hoping I can just do a Winclone image transfer from my existing MacBook Pro, but if that doesn't work out I will keep this in mind.

    Slowness in the Apple RAID card (as well as no Windows/Linux access) is acceptable because these are my Photos/Music/Movies archives - it's not like I'm a video producer or anything :D

    Speaking of the Apple RAID setup, I haven't decided whether to go with 2xRAID1, 1xRAID10, or be bold (crazy?) and go 1xRAID5. I'd like the extra space from RAID5, but putting all my eggs in one basket makes me nervous (I admin over a Petabyte of RAID storage at work and we've had 2-disk RAID5 failures that caused us to lose data, so we went to RAID6). I'm less nervous about RAID10 but striping also tends to make me nervous - if I do 2xRAID1 and disaster strikes I might at least get away with having the other Volume untouched. Call me paranoid ;)
     
  8. Riot Nrrrd thread starter macrumors regular

    Riot Nrrrd

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    #8
    Just posted in your thread, Dan/Cmd-the-World ... in case you are still looking for a bracket for your ODD bay SSD.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. xgman macrumors 601

    xgman

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    #9
    I run my windows drive exactly as you have described with no problems. I have also tested a Lion drive in the same place.
     
  10. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #10
    RAID 5 is fine for workstations, as the user is present to take care of a disk failure when they happen. One trick, is to keep the member count manageable, which is only a max of 4 members on the Apple RAID Pro (I don't really like to go past 8 members with large disks to minimize a failure during a rebuild; which is a common way data gets lost on a RAID 5).

    In a worst case scenario, you restore from backups (not fun, but you'll be able to recover all the data up to the last backup cycle, and have little to no work to re-perform for data lost after the backup cycle was completed). Please keep in mind, that the smaller member count really does help with this. The down side with that particular controller, is the port count (can only make a 3 disk set + hot spare or 4 disk set without a hot spare).

    BTW, how was the storage system at work configured?

    A ask, as it seems there were mistakes (not as uncommon as you might think, particularly with the member count). Given that much data, I'd have expected RAID 6, possibly a nested level (60/61), and at least an n = 1 fail over for the servers (presume a SAN for that much capacity).
     
  11. Riot Nrrrd thread starter macrumors regular

    Riot Nrrrd

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    #11
    I'm not sure I parsed all of this :)

    I'd only be using the present 4 SATA bay drives (4x2 TB) for the RAID setup. No plans on doing anything crazy like emptying the ODD bays and adding more 2 TB disks so I could RAID those as well.

    If I did RAID5 I would be OK with using all 4 disks and no Hot Spare. This is my home machine and it would be OK if a single disk failed and was in Degraded mode waiting for me to swap in a new drive. Not like I'm accessing my movies/music/pictures constantly :)

    The failure at work happened on an older SATAbeast unit that did not support RAID6 - it actually happened just exactly as you described, we had a disk failure and the 2nd disk failed during the rebuild onto the hot spare. We vowed never again to buy anything that did not support RAID6 after that. We have a mix in house of both custom units (Linux boxes with 3ware 9650 cards and 48 TB built in storage) and other smaller standalone RAID units like InforTrend's.
     
  12. Riot Nrrrd thread starter macrumors regular

    Riot Nrrrd

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    #12
    Good to know xgman - so you still have a burner in ODD bay 1 and added the Windows drive in bay 2? Are you using a mounting bracket? I'm thinking of getting that pictured bracket from OWC.
     
  13. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #13
    You couldn't do this with the Apple RAID Pro anyway, as it's only 4x ports (uses traces to connect to the 4x HDD bays only). :p

    No, you wouldn't really need a Hot Spare with your usage then. ;)

    BTW, what are you going to use for a backup solution?

    So long as its implemented properly, RAID 5 is fine.

    Where the issues lie with parity based arrays, is with the larger drives and drive age (= applies to 6/50/60/51/61 as well). Drive capacity (high density platters to be more precise), has re-demonstrated that there are limitations as to the number of disks that you can run and avoid what you ran into (2nd disk dying due to the stress during a rebuild). With the higher density platter disks, it's forced storage system designers/architects to reduce the member count from previous rules of thumb.

    Another issue with drives, is that companies tend to run them too long, particularly SMB's (have seen disks older than 5 years still in service). :eek: That's begging for a failure...

    What's complicated this, is that the newer drives tend to be cheaply made in comparison to disks made not that long ago (say 2006 or earlier), as manufacturing facilities have been relocated and disk makers have merged (i.e. recent acquisition of Fujitsu by Toshiba). So the more recently produced disks aren't as likely to last as long (especially the consumer models, in which the enterprise SATA disks are built off of the same systems - (think same board with additional sensors, the same mechanics, and cherry picked platters that can achieve the higher bit error rates).

    One such example is Hitachi (moved their SATA manufacturing facility from Malaysia to China), and their reliability has suffered greatly as a result. But they're not the only ones. Just look at the DOA rates of late, and you'll see what I mean (newegg is actually a good place to figure this out). ;)
     
  14. Riot Nrrrd thread starter macrumors regular

    Riot Nrrrd

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    #14
    I've got 2 Venus DS-DS3RPRO eSATA/USB 2.0 2x1TB RAID1 units on my MacBook Pro that can be repurposed for Time Machine use. (I'll use at least one of them for that purpose with the boot SSD disk I'm about to order.)

    But yeah, that brings up why I'm leaning towards playing it safe and just going with two 2x2 TB RAID1 Volumes in the 4-disk Apple RAID setup. Right now with the Venus units I'm not worried about backups because they're mirrored, that was the whole point ;) Lose a disk, pop in a new one, no worries. (Haven't lost one yet, either. Knock on wood. I can also lose one of the units because if it fails, I can pop the disks out and pop them into the other unit if I really need to get at the data. Ah, redundancy ;) )

    If I were to RAID5 the 4 disks I'd be a LOT more nervous about that. I want at least 4 usable TB out of the setup and maybe peace of mind is worth sacrificing the ~1.5-1.6 extra TB I'd have if I went to RAID5. I don't want to buy more disk to back up all of these drives, that was sort of the point of having the system be maxed out to begin with.

    By your Newegg comment, did you mean all the product comments from people buying disk drives from them? :confused:
     
  15. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #15
    So long as there' sufficient capacity, they should work (just don't use them in stripe mode :eek: :p).

    If you're going to set up a pair of mirrors, stripe the pair to allow for additional throughputs as well. Unfortunately, this will only provide n/2 usable capacity (the "catch").

    Also, no matter what your storage configuration, there is no substitute for a backup solution. It doesn't matter what RAID level or how much failover has been designed into the system (including the most sophisticated SAN that could ever be concieved). You still need a backup.

    One obvious thing that won't be covered in your intent on running a pair of mirrors, is user error, such as an accidental file deletion as it's performed on all members of the mirror.

    Now if you mean to use 1 mirror for primary data, and another as a backup (not RAIDed together, but only via backup software), then that will be fine. Tad overkill for a home system, but won't cause any harm.

    Nothing to be nervous about so long as you use enterprise disks (this could be a real issue if you were to use consumer grade disks).

    RAID 5 does provide a nice balance of capacity, speed, and redundancy. Greater redundancy would cut your usable capacity and speed (i.e. RAID 10 or 6 for example). They all have their uses of course, but for a system you've physical access to on a daily basis, you will be able to replace a defective drive in order to allow for a rebuild. ;)

    Now if this system were a remote server OTOH, then RAID 5 wouldn't be the way to go (better to go with 10, 6, or some sort of nested configuration with at least one hot spare).

    For cheap backup, you could opt for an eSATA based Port Multiplier enclosure (4 bay example), and JBOD the disks (granted, if a disks fails, the data's not accessible). But the viable disks remaining can be recovered by software utilities (i.e. Disk Warrior), so only the data on the defective disk actually disappears (which would be recoverable from the primary storage location). It's better than a stripe set IMO, as in an absolute total disaster (both the backup and primary locations are damaged <primary = completely unrecoverable>, most of the data is retained <all but the one disk>). If such a disaster were to happen and the backup a stripe set, you're data's gone. End of story.

    Yes.

    I read through the reviews, and try to determine if they were DOA or returned quickly due to other issues (i.e. need to read all of them, as there are those that will give more than 1 or 2 eggs due to newegg's return policy). Then compute the failure %.
     

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