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Ambrosia7177

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Feb 6, 2016
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Hello.

I am learning all about video (i.e. shooting, editing, producing) and most of what I've read says, "Always shoot in 4K."

My videos are shot on an iPhone 6S Plus, which isn't exactly "cutting edge", but it supposedly does 4K.

I was ready to go full bore on the whole 4K thing when it started to occur to me that maybe my currently Mac situation isn't suited for this?! :confused:

Currently, I have an early 2015, 13" retina MacBook Pro with...

Processor: 3.1 GHz Intel Core i7
Memory: 16 GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Graphics: Intel Iris Graphics 6100 1536 MB

Any video-editing would be done in Final Cut Pro X.


Do I have enough hardware to do 4K video-editing and video-rendering?


Most of what I will be shooting are street interviews and shorter op-docs under maybe 10 minutes.
 
Final Cut recommends 8 GB of RAM for 4K, and you've got double that. You've also got 1.5 GB of VRAM; it wants 1 GB.

Responses here indicate that 4K editing isn't ideal for anything more than the basics if you don't have dedicated graphics, and you don't, so I would possibly stick with 1080p.

4K will also consume far more space.
 
I would try 4k. Even though your final output is likely to be 1080P, it is quite likely that you will want to use slow zoom effects to bring the interview to life. The problem is if your start point is 1080P then you will lose some clarity as you zoom in, if you shoot in 4K then even if you do use zoom effects then when you output to 1080P you will still have a good quality movie. Given that your projects are relatively short, you are not dealing with multiple cameras and you will not be using a ton of effects I think you should be ok.

FCP allows you to create proxy files if you do run into a problem. These are lower quality files designed to reduce the load on the processor while editing, but are linked to the original media files, so when you create your final movie it will use the high quality original.

However given the short projects you will be doing and the limited amount of effects I think you should be fine.
 
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@James Craner,

I would try 4k. Even though your final output is likely to be 1080P, it is quite likely that you will want to use slow zoom effects to bring the interview to life. The problem is if your start point is 1080P then you will lose some clarity as you zoom in, if you shoot in 4K then even if you do use zoom effects then when you output to 1080P you will still have a good quality movie. Given that your projects are relatively short, you are not dealing with multiple cameras and you will not be using a ton of effects I think you should be ok.

That was my thinking exactly.


FCP allows you to create proxy files if you do run into a problem. These are lower quality files designed to reduce the load on the processor while editing, but are linked to the original media files, so when you create your final movie it will use the high quality original.

However given the short projects you will be doing and the limited amount of effects I think you should be fine.

Does anyone here have any hands-on experience in there area where they can speak to what does, and does not, happen with 4K files on a 13" rMBP?
 
I shoot and edit 4K material, but I don't use Final Cut ProX. I am a Davinci Resolve user for both Mac and PC. My experience with 4K is where the machine bogs down is during transcoding from interframe h.264 4k material into intraframe format that you can edit in FCPX. If you create proxy footage by first transcoding 4k h.264 into its ProRes equivalent, then you will have little issue working with those proxy files. That was what I did with my Mac Pro 8 core Xeon with a dedicated GPU RX580 that just barely make the cut in editing 4k h.264 footage without needing proxies. When I got my newer Asus gaming machine with a much more modern hardware and ability to decode h.264 & HEVC on the fly with the Nvidia GPU and the Coffee Lake CPU; editing h.264 4K is so fast and so fluid that it barely made a dent in the system performance. It blew away my Mac Pro. I no longer need to create proxies with my Asus PC editing machine.

As others had noted, you probably need to do proxies. I used to work with clients who were exactly in your situation. They are indie movie content creators; one was creating documentaries on DTES people, prostitutes, and drug addicts and she used a Macbook Pro 2012 machine editing in proxies. It was doable for her in Final Cut ProX. With such short run times, you can easily create proxies that don't take a lot of time and your system is more than capable for that. One advice though if you're dealing with 4k footage. Get a Thunderbolt or USB3 SSD storage as that helps working with 4k proxies. That's was how I setup my Mac Pro as well as my Asus gaming rig. 4K is 4x data of 1080p, so a fast storage system helps reduce lag on your time line. To further reduce time line lag and get that buttery smooth flow, you need at least a 4Gb video ram on your GPU. Hope this helps.
 
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Really, your question depends on the type of 4K footage you intend to use. Since 4K refers to the resolution of the footage, the part often left out when just asking about 4K in general is the codec and data rate. Since, in your case, you are planning to work mainly with H.264 4K shot on your iPhone 6s, the Intel Quick Sync H.264 decoding and encoding in your MacBook Pro's "Broadwell" processor should work just fine for editing 4K footage by accelerating playback (decoding) and compression (encoding).

I haven't found the max resolution for hardware-accelerated encode and decode H.264 on the Broadwell (Core 5th Gen) processors, but I know that Ivy Bridge (3rd Gen) CPUs gained the ability to accelerate 4K video, whereas their Sandy Bridge (2nd Gen) predecessors topped out at 1080p acceleration. One can quite clearly verify this by comparing the smoothness of playback and amount of CPU usage in Activity Monitor on a 2012 Mac (Ivy Bridge) vs. a 2011 one (Sandy Bridge).

But don't take my word for it— since you already have the hardware and camera in hand, why not record some test footage and edit a test project to see how it goes?

Good luck,
Fred
 
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I shoot and edit 4K material, but I don't use Final Cut ProX. I am a Davinci Resolve user for both Mac and PC. My experience with 4K is where the machine bogs down is during transcoding from interframe h.264 4k material into intraframe format that you can edit in FCPX. If you create proxy footage by first transcoding 4k h.264 into its ProRes equivalent, then you will have little issue working with those proxy files. That was what I did with my Mac Pro 8 core Xeon with a dedicated GPU RX580 that just barely make the cut in editing 4k h.264 footage without needing proxies. When I got my newer Asus gaming machine with a much more modern hardware and ability to decode h.264 & HEVC on the fly with the Nvidia GPU and the Coffee Lake CPU; editing h.264 4K is so fast and so fluid that it barely made a dent in the system performance. It blew away my Mac Pro. I no longer need to create proxies with my Asus PC editing machine.

So based on my rMBP's specs listed above, if I use "proxy footage", then things should be workable?

Would I lose any editing capabilities, or the ability to review things before rendering a final copy - I guess you use the term "transcode" in video?


As others had noted, you probably need to do proxies. I used to work with clients who were exactly in your situation. They are indie movie content creators; one was creating documentaries on DTES people, prostitutes, and drug addicts and she used a Macbook Pro 2012 machine editing in proxies.

That is what I aspire to do...


One advice though if you're dealing with 4k footage. Get a Thunderbolt or USB3 SSD storage as that helps working with 4k proxies.

Same concept as what I think they call a "scratch disk" when using Photoshop?



That's was how I setup my Mac Pro as well as my Asus gaming rig. 4K is 4x data of 1080p, so a fast storage system helps reduce lag on your time line. To further reduce time line lag and get that buttery smooth flow, you need at least a 4Gb video ram on your GPU. Hope this helps.

Would a 15" (or now 16") rMBP make a difference?

Or if I get serious with all of this, should I break down and get a desktop Mac?
 
Really, your question depends on the type of 4K footage you intend to use. Since 4K refers to the resolution of the footage, the part often left out when just asking about 4K in general is the codec and data rate. Since, in your case, you are planning to work mainly with H.264 4K shot on your iPhone 6s, the Intel Quick Sync H.264 decoding and encoding in your MacBook Pro's "Broadwell" processor should work just fine for editing 4K footage by accelerating playback (decoding) and compression (encoding).

Well, my iPhone 6S Plus supposedly shoots "4K".

In addition, I just bought Filmic Pro, although I find it to be rather burdensome in the field. (Today I had a guy that agreed to an interview - but he was waiting for a bus. I started fiddling with Filmic Pro, got frustrated, and finally said "Screw it?!" and used Camera.app instead.)

When I do use Filmic Pro, I have things set on "4K 2160p" and "Filmic Extreme"

(Would be willing to use "Filmic Quality" or "Apple Standard" if those were better Bit-Rates.)


I haven't found the max resolution for hardware-accelerated encode and decode H.264 on the Broadwell (Core 5th Gen) processors, but I know that Ivy Bridge (3rd Gen) CPUs gained the ability to accelerate 4K video, whereas their Sandy Bridge (2nd Gen) predecessors topped out at 1080p acceleration. One can quite clearly verify this by comparing the smoothness of playback and amount of CPU usage in Activity Monitor on a 2012 Mac (Ivy Bridge) vs. a 2011 one (Sandy Bridge).

But don't take my word for it— since you already have the hardware and camera in hand, why not record some test footage and edit a test project to see how it goes?

Good luck,
Fred

Trying to find the time to juggle 100 things!!

Am going to try and download the 90-day free trial of FCPX tomorrow an try to start learning it...
 
So based on my rMBP's specs listed above, if I use "proxy footage", then things should be workable?

Would I lose any editing capabilities, or the ability to review things before rendering a final copy - I guess you use the term "transcode" in video?




That is what I aspire to do...




Same concept as what I think they call a "scratch disk" when using Photoshop?





Would a 15" (or now 16") rMBP make a difference?

Or if I get serious with all of this, should I break down and get a desktop Mac?

1, You won't loose any editing capabilities or the ability to review things on FCPX while using proxies. In fact, professionals tend to prefer working with proxies or they transcode their footages into ProRes and work from them. If you use the FCPX's built in plug-ins for transitions and fusion stuff, 1.5Gb of VRAM should be ok. It's when you use paid plug-ins that need more VRAM is when you can decide if you need to upgrade your machine.

2, I am happy that you are show casing those "invincible people" out there. When I used to work in nursing helping people in the DTES; there's a lot of neglect, abuse and exploitation especially on women and it seemed that society as a whole just turned a blind eye to them. I think when COVID is over, there will be more of these people, more of the poverty and despair and more people that need to tell their stories.

3, Having a large SSD is the same concept as a scratch disk when using Photoshop. You would edit your footages on a fast SSD drive and then render your final cut onto a hard drive. Since 4K is like 4x the data of 1080p, you will see benefits using a fast solid state drive. Samsung T7 or T5 comes to mind. I use a Raid SSD array on my Mac Pro to do that and a fast SSD in my Asus. It's not an expensive outlay, but an essential one.

4, The newer 16" MBP would make a difference since it comes with an Apple T2 chip which is a hardware decoder/encoder for h.264 and HEVC and the Coffee Lake CPU supports Quicksync that can both decode and encode 4K compressed content. Basically it allows you to work on your footages on the fly without needing proxies. And the 5600M Pro mobile GPU on the 16" MBP has 8Gb of video ram which is perfect for buttery smooth 4K editing. You need at least 4Gb of VRAM to have smooth 4K time line editing. So with a 16" MBP, you don't need to work on proxies. You still need a SSD scratch disk. Is a desktop necessary? It really depends upon how serious you're getting into making the documentary series. The people I worked with in the past through a non-profit agency. These producers don't have a ton of money either and so, they usually work with what they could afford shooting with their iPhones and Androids. Nicer machine helps speed editing up, but is NOT a necessary component in making 4K movies. Give your MBP a try first, download FCPX and then find out where the bottle neck is. Make sure you have a very fast large scratch disk and work on proxies. It should be enough to get you started.

Hope this helps!
 
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1, You won't loose any editing capabilities or the ability to review things on FCPX while using proxies. In fact, professionals tend to prefer working with proxies or they transcode their footages into ProRes and work from them. If you use the FCPX's built in plug-ins for transitions and fusion stuff, 1.5Gb of VRAM should be ok. It's when you use paid plug-ins that need more VRAM is when you can decide if you need to upgrade your machine.

Hopefully, I can start diving into learning FCPX later this week or next.

How hard is it to use proxies and do everything you have described?

Since I have no prior experience doing video-editing, I have a lot that I need to learn (e.g. how does a time-line work). But I am hoping that I can learn enough in FCPX to put together simple videos in not too long of a time-frame.

Really I just need to learn to add cover slides and transition slides, edit my raw footage, maybe add some music, and possibly add some B-roll, although that is a topic that I need to learn more about so I can actually start shooting that.



2, I am happy that you are show casing those "invincible people" out there. When I used to work in nursing helping people in the DTES; there's a lot of neglect, abuse and exploitation especially on women and it seemed that society as a whole just turned a blind eye to them. I think when COVID is over, there will be more of these people, more of the poverty and despair and more people that need to tell their stories.

Thank you, that means A LOT to hear someone say that! 😊

My focus is not just the "disadvantaged", but mostly ordinary people struggling in the pandemic. But still, I want to provide stories that don't make the national - or even local - news...



3, Having a large SSD is the same concept as a scratch disk when using Photoshop. You would edit your footages on a fast SSD drive and then render your final cut onto a hard drive. Since 4K is like 4x the data of 1080p, you will see benefits using a fast solid state drive. Samsung T7 or T5 comes to mind. I use a Raid SSD array on my Mac Pro to do that and a fast SSD in my Asus. It's not an expensive outlay, but an essential one.

I'm a bit confused here...

Both of my rMBPs have internal SSDs. The problem is that my main rMBP is nearly maxed out with storage.

So, being almost out of $$$, I bought two Seagate 2TB hard-drives that are only 5400rpm. (It was the best deal I could afford.)

The plan is to store all of my video onto one of these drives, then use the second one as a backup.

And if I can also use those to free up maybe 100-200GB of space, then the plan was to do all video editing in FCPX on my main rMBP.

What I want to clarify if this...

As long as I have decent available space on my rMBP, I assume that is enough to be able to edit video in FCPX on my rMPB, right?

In other words, the limitations of my rMBP's processor, and the limitations of my rMBP's graphics card won't change.

And while it is important to have enough internal storage so you don't get into RAM issues, I assume if you have enough internal storage available, then the need for an external SSD "scratch disk" is all but eliminated, correct?


The reason I chose those two Seagate drives was because I could get a 2TB for like $70, and a 2TB SSD would have likely cost me $300+, plus you have to double that cost for my backup drive. I just didn't have an extra $600+ right now.

So hopefully if I can get stuff off of my rMBP, then I can simply take advantage of my rMBP's internal SSD and use proxies to lessen the load on my laptop.



4, The newer 16" MBP would make a difference since it comes with an Apple T2 chip which is a hardware decoder/encoder for h.264 and HEVC and the Coffee Lake CPU supports Quicksync that can both decode and encode 4K compressed content. Basically it allows you to work on your footages on the fly without needing proxies. And the 5600M Pro mobile GPU on the 16" MBP has 8Gb of video ram which is perfect for buttery smooth 4K editing. You need at least 4Gb of VRAM to have smooth 4K time line editing. So with a 16" MBP, you don't need to work on proxies. You still need a SSD scratch disk. Is a desktop necessary? It really depends upon how serious you're getting into making the documentary series. The people I worked with in the past through a non-profit agency. These producers don't have a ton of money either and so, they usually work with what they could afford shooting with their iPhones and Androids. Nicer machine helps speed editing up, but is NOT a necessary component in making 4K movies. Give your MBP a try first, download FCPX and then find out where the bottle neck is. Make sure you have a very fast large scratch disk and work on proxies. It should be enough to get you started.

Since I am living on the road going from project to project, it isn't practical for me to get a desktop solution.

If I outgrow my current hardware, then if I could get by with a 16" MBP, that would make my life a lot easier.

But hopefully, what I have now is enough to get the end results that I need for the foreseeable future.


Hope this helps!

Yes, very informative responses!! :)
 
1, Creating proxies in FCPX

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/final-cut-pro/verb8e5f6fd/mac#:~:text=Create optimized and proxy files during import. 1,the imported media in your library: More items

2, When you're creating proxies, you can consume more data on the drive. Remember that 4K is 4x data of 1080p, so the files aren't really small and fill up the drive very quickly. Try 100-200Gb to see if you can work with that. 4K editing in proxies itself work better with a I/O speed of around 150-300MB/s with near zero latency. SSD can deliver that. A HD can be slower and playback may become choppy. Again, give it a try and see if there's a bottleneck there. If there is, then switch to using your SSD instead. You can render your final project to a HD.

3, Editing in 4K is really all about your storage device. Once in proxies, it's your storage device and lots of it that will keep it somewhat smooth and manageable. Video editing is basically a storage and GPU hog as you become more serious doing it.
 
The latest FCP update makes creating and using proxy media and moving/copying proxy only versions of entire libraries a breeze. H.264 Proxies are even an option. Not sure on the flavor of QuickSync in your 2015 MBP, but if you did H.264 Proxies at 50% resolution, it's about 1/3 the storage requirements of ProRes Proxy.

Another good tip for maximizing storage space and bandwidth, if there are times you need to work with full-res media instead of proxy, is to use ProRes 422 LT as your rendering codec. It's really difficult to see any difference between LT and regular ProRes 422 in many situations and you net a 30% savings in storage. You can switch back to 422 or higher for your Final Render also.

I actually wish Apple would give us the option in FCPX to have optimized media transcoded to 422 LT instead of full 422. It is more than enough for many projects, and 30% is a substantial savings on storage... You can manually do it by transcoding all your footage via Compressor first, but it would be so nice to have it baked into the native media management.
 
Hello.

I am learning all about video (i.e. shooting, editing, producing) and most of what I've read says, "Always shoot in 4K."

My videos are shot on an iPhone 6S Plus, which isn't exactly "cutting edge", but it supposedly does 4K.

I was ready to go full bore on the whole 4K thing when it started to occur to me that maybe my currently Mac situation isn't suited for this?! :confused:

Currently, I have an early 2015, 13" retina MacBook Pro with...

Processor: 3.1 GHz Intel Core i7
Memory: 16 GB 1867 MHz DDR3
Graphics: Intel Iris Graphics 6100 1536 MB

Any video-editing would be done in Final Cut Pro X.


Do I have enough hardware to do 4K video-editing and video-rendering?


Most of what I will be shooting are street interviews and shorter op-docs under maybe 10 minutes.
I have a 2.2 Ghz i7, 16GB DDR3 and a Iris 5200 1536MB, shooting in 1080p24. 1080p, playbacked back in 1/4 resolution (so 480x270, not 1920x1080) is absolutely hell. RAM usage is around 12-15GB RAM and CPU usage is at 70% most of the time. Rendering can take (1080p, ProRes 422 LT, 1 minute video) upwards of 4 hours for most projects leaving my system useless until the render is done. Who told you that 4K is neccesary? Not true, a good 1080p sensor (megapixels don't matter, it can be 10000MP and still look bad) so MFT or bigger (phones including the 6S are 1/2.5 which is one of the smallest video sensors around) is the best. There good 4K and crap 4K, good coming from Mirrorless and Cine cameras and crap coming from cheaper phones. The 6S doesn't have a good sensor but then it isn't the worst. I would shoot in 4K and downscale it to 1080p in post by recording in 4K 24fps, importing the 4K24 file into your NLE in a 1080p project, which will make the video seem zoomed in, zoom it out to fit the screen (around 67% scale) and that creates a 4K>1080p video. Downscaling improves the sharpness, colour saturation and more in the footage.
 
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