Can I see your ID not your signature? (credit card merchants)

[bradl]

That is a fantastic story but I do not see the relevance.

I am not against ID and signature, but PIN and CHIP is just so much better. Magnetic strips are just to easy to clone.

The relevance here is that the OP is getting tired and annoyed with how each time he uses his credit card/ATM card, he is asked for ID and not signature.

What happened to me is the ramifications of when they don't ask for it, compared to the opposite extreme, when a merchant overseas critiqued my signature for fraud prevention. I would rather take the critique over fraudulent purchases from my account and in my name. Asking for signature or ID is what they should do, and not just accept you being the name of the cardholder just because you say so.

BL.

 

[aristobrat]

So what's the point? Are you upset because a cashier is breaking the rules of the merchant agreement

A merchant asking to see a customers ID is not breaking or against the Visa, MasterCard, Discover or AMEX merchant agreement.

As a business owner who accepts credit cards, if you don't want to show me your ID then you aren't getting the product(s) you ordered.

That is breaking the VISA and MasterCard merchant agreements.

The VISA merchant agreement specifically says this (below). Has that not been your experience?

It is important that merchants understand that the requesting of a cardholder ID does not change the merchant’s liability for chargebacks . However, it can slow down a sale and annoy the customer .

https://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card-acceptance-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf

 

[r i c h]

A merchant asking to see a customers ID is not breaking or against the Visa, MasterCard, Discover or AMEX merchant agreement.

I'm merely asking the OP to clarify his real point of the thread. No one should be this riled up about having to show an ID during a transaction.

That is breaking the VISA and MasterCard merchant agreements.

The VISA merchant agreement specifically says this (below). Has that not been your experience?


https://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card-acceptance-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf

The right to refuse service, for whatever reason, supersedes the merchant agreement. If I feel the customer is acting in a potentially fraudulent manner (or just being a pain in the ass for no reason) I see no point in doing business with them.

 

[arogge]

I'm merely asking the OP to clarify his real point of the thread. No one should be this riled up about having to show an ID during a transaction. The right to refuse service, for whatever reason, supersedes the merchant agreement. If I feel the customer is acting in a potentially fraudulent manner (or just being a pain in the ass for no reason) I see no point in doing business with them.

I am tired of being asked for a driver's license to use a credit card, and it's a big issue. A credit card is a bearer account, valid upon presentation of a signed card. By becoming a merchant and displaying an acceptance logo for a card company, the merchant agrees to certain regulations, including a requirement to not demand any customer identification as a condition of sale upon presentation of a signed card. In addition to valuing the privacy of my personal information in public, I often do not carry any photo identification or anything else that could be a serious loss after an accident.

I am also concerned that the driver's license is being used as a substitute for a signature verification. As I am now a victim of identity fraud myself, I do note that the most-recent successful security breach only occurred because the criminal was able to use a driver's license instead of a bank identification card or a signature. If the signatures do not match, the transaction should be stopped and no further information should be given to the person on the other side of the counter. A driver's license should never be used for anything except purposes of driving a motor vehicle.

A merchant is not responsible for tracking stolen cards. Once the card reader displays the Approved signal and a receipt is created, the only thing that needs to be collected is the signature on the card. The heuristics running on the computers at the credit card companies will find and stop any card fraud faster than anybody hassling a customer for a photo ID, and the faster the thief uses the card, the faster the computers will detect the problem and flag down the cardholder.

While a merchant can refuse to sell to a customer who understands what is written in the credit card regulations, and so refuses to hand over a driver's license, the credit card company can penalize a merchant that is in violation, and customers who don't like how they were treated can choose not to come back.

I did file a complaint with my card company again this week, as I do for every merchant that has decided the merchant agreements don't apply to them. I have also begun to pursue remedial education for some merchants that I catch not verifying the signatures.

 

[bradl]

I am tired of being asked for a driver's license to use a credit card, and it's a big issue. A credit card is a bearer account, valid upon presentation of a signed card. By becoming a merchant and displaying an acceptance logo for a card company, the merchant agrees to certain regulations, including a requirement to not demand any customer identification as a condition of sale upon presentation of a signed card. In addition to valuing the privacy of my personal information in public, I often do not carry any photo identification or anything else that could be a serious loss after an accident.

I am also concerned that the driver's license is being used as a substitute for a signature verification. As I am now a victim of identity fraud myself, I do note that the most-recent successful security breach only occurred because the criminal was able to use a driver's license instead of a bank identification card or a signature. If the signatures do not match, the transaction should be stopped and no further information should be given to the person on the other side of the counter. A driver's license should never be used for anything except purposes of driving a motor vehicle.

A merchant is not responsible for tracking stolen cards. Once the card reader displays the Approved signal and a receipt is created, the only thing that needs to be collected is the signature on the card. The heuristics running on the computers at the credit card companies will find and stop any card fraud faster than anybody hassling a customer for a photo ID, and the faster the thief uses the card, the faster the computers will detect the problem and flag down the cardholder.

While a merchant can refuse to sell to a customer who understands what is written in the credit card regulations, and so refuses to hand over a driver's license, the credit card company can penalize a merchant that is in violation, and customers who don't like how they were treated can choose not to come back.

I did file a complaint with my card company again this week, as I do for every merchant that has decided the merchant agreements don't apply to them. I have also begun to pursue remedial education for some merchants that I catch not verifying the signatures.

Someone can match your signature, and/or create a fake ID with their picture on it. Doing both at the same time is highly improbable. Therefore, having both your ID checked and your signature verified at the time of purchase is going to be the best method we have right now to counter credit card fraud until PIN and CHIP technology reaches our cards.

In short, you'll have to deal with it, regardless of how annoying you think it may be. Unless you want what happened to me (due to the lack of the merchant asking for both) to happen to you.

BL.

 

[r i c h]

A driver's license should never be used for anything except purposes of driving a motor vehicle.

What about when you go to purchase a car, a house, rent an apartment, board a domestic flight, enter a bar, purchase alcohol, etc? Since there is no national ID card in place how do you expect merchants and proprietors to enforce both laws and policies without requesting/requiring a photo ID (such as a DL)?

I still fail to see the actual point of writing a diatribe about merchants "abusing" the merchant agreement when it seems like the real issue is having to show your ID when you don't want to.

 

[D.T.]

Seems like a good time to post this. Warning some NSFW text and drawings

http://m.tickld.com/x/this-guy-just...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[yg17]

A merchant is not responsible for tracking stolen cards. Once the card reader displays the Approved signal and a receipt is created, the only thing that needs to be collected is the signature on the card. The heuristics running on the computers at the credit card companies will find and stop any card fraud faster than anybody hassling a customer for a photo ID, and the faster the thief uses the card, the faster the computers will detect the problem and flag down the cardholder.

Funny you mention that, I used my AmEx one day in St. Louis, a few hours later, it was used in Bogota, Colombia, and then 10 minutes after that, it was used somewhere in Texas. Until teleportation is invented, that is clearly fishy, and heuristics did nothing to stop those obviously fraudulent charges.

I only found out right away because I set up alerts on my account to send me a text whenever my card is used internationally, so the charge in Colombia triggered that. I had to call AmEx (who had the audacity to ask me if I was sure I wasn't in Colombia, I guess in case I took a few Ambien and sleep walked my way onto an airplane) to report the fraud.

----------

Seems like a good time to post this. Warning some NSFW text and drawings

http://m.tickld.com/x/this-guy-just...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Oh man, I did the same thing back in college when I had to shop at Wal-Mart. I realized I could put anything on the self checkout PIN pads, so I did. Fake names. I signed something like "**** Wal-Mart" once or twice. I did a penis a few times. Smiley faces. Anything but my actual signature. I guess someone actually does check the signatures at some point and flag credit cards where obviously fake signatures are used, because finally, one day, I got the same "COMPARE SIGNATURE" thing. Thankfully, that time, I was in a rush and didn't have time to draw an elaborate cock and balls, so I just squiggled an X.

Just told the cashier I couldn't get that stupid stylus to work so I scribbled something and they bought it.

 

[daflake]

Clearly, we need some education here too. It is a violation of the credit card merchant agreements to demand a photo ID such as a driver's license when a signed card is presented.

Actually you are incorrect. A merchant can most certainly ask for an id to verify card holder for both Visa and MC. However, they cannot deny a sale for a properly signed card. If you don't sign your card, then they have a right to refuse the sale. In fact, the vendor is not supposed to accept the sale if the card is not signed.

AMEX doesn't really care and Discover actually recommends that we check an ID.


You can get upset all you want, but I have turned away sales with customers who refuse. I also work with a bike shop and have no desire to let a 6K bike walk out the door with a questionable sale.

 

[samiwas]

I am tired of being asked for a driver's license to use a credit card, and it's a big issue. A credit card is a bearer account, valid upon presentation of a signed card. By becoming a merchant and displaying an acceptance logo for a card company, the merchant agrees to certain regulations, including a requirement to not demand any customer identification as a condition of sale upon presentation of a signed card.

Hmm…on page 400 of the Visa International Operating Regulations, there is the following section:

Card and Cardholder Verification (Updated)
An Acquirer or a Merchant must validate a Cardholder's identity and verify the Card in a Face-to-Face Environment, as specified in the following table.

Verify that the signature on the Card matches the signature on the Transaction Receipt and, if applicable, identification presented. This signature may be different from the name embossed or printed on the Card.

Doesn't seem like they forbid asking for ID under some circumstances. They do say that they can't require an ID unless it is required or permitted elsewhere in the Visa International Operating Regulations. So unless you have read and understand all 1113 pages of the agreement, it's possible you are mistaken.

I am also concerned that the driver's license is being used as a substitute for a signature verification. As I am now a victim of identity fraud myself, I do note that the most-recent successful security breach only occurred because the criminal was able to use a driver's license instead of a bank identification card or a signature.

And signatures are even easier to fake than IDs. And if someone makes a fake card, the signatures will match anyway. This does literally nothing to fix your problem. The thought that some computer will always pick up fraudulent activity is naive at best.

 

[arogge]

Doesn't seem like they forbid asking for ID under some circumstances.
And signatures are even easier to fake than IDs.

A merchant that refuses to accept a valid card is indeed in violation of the agreement. Good signatures are not easier to fake than a driver's license, especially not to the level of being able to forge a signature in a few brief seconds. Fraud protection does indeed work, and not only have the heuristics become much better about being able to detect unusual activity, the card company assumes the liability for fraudulent activity. If somebody does manage to fool the fraud protection and runs up a huge bill on my card, that becomes the bank's liability. All I need to do as a cardholder and a merchant is to fill out the paperwork, present my documentation, and send it back for investigation. If I've done what I'm supposed to be doing under the agreement, I will be absolved of responsibility for the fraudulent activity.

According to my card company, I am correct and I need not comply with any demands to hand over a driver's license as a condition of sale.

 

[aristobrat]

A merchant that refuses to accept a valid card is indeed in violation of the agreement.

True with Visa and MasterCard cards. Not true with Discover or AMEX cards.

 

[bradl]

A merchant that refuses to accept a valid card is indeed in violation of the agreement. Good signatures are not easier to fake than a driver's license, especially not to the level of being able to forge a signature in a few brief seconds. Fraud protection does indeed work, and not only have the heuristics become much better about being able to detect unusual activity, the card company assumes the liability for fraudulent activity. If somebody does manage to fool the fraud protection and runs up a huge bill on my card, that becomes the bank's liability. All I need to do as a cardholder and a merchant is to fill out the paperwork, present my documentation, and send it back for investigation. If I've done what I'm supposed to be doing under the agreement, I will be absolved of responsibility for the fraudulent activity.

According to my card company, I am correct and I need not comply with any demands to hand over a driver's license as a condition of sale.

You obviously did not read the post above yours. The Merchant has the option to ask you for ID to show as proof that you are indeed you. If you refuse to show that, per their request, they can refuse the sale and ask you to provide other means of completing the purchase.

I will repeat it again, for your review:

Card and Cardholder Verification (Updated)
An Acquirer or a Merchant must validate a Cardholder's identity and verify the Card in a Face-to-Face Environment, as specified in the following table.

Verify that the signature on the Card matches the signature on the Transaction Receipt and, if applicable, identification presented. This signature may be different from the name embossed or printed on the Card.

If they have cause to believe that the signature doesn't match, they can ask you for your ID, which you must present to them for verification. If not, then they may void the purchase, or ask you to provide other means of completing the purchase.

BL.

 

[prostuff1]

According to my card company, I am correct and I need not comply with any demands to hand over a driver's license as a condition of sale.

Then by all means go about what you have been doing. I would argue that I could fake a signature decently well after about 30 minutes of practice. So long as I have an example to look at it would be easy enough to do. Doing a fake ID, much harder, for me at least, to get a hold of.

Presenting ID has never bothered me. Frankly I write SEE ID on the back of most of my cards to see if a merchant will bother asking, sadly most do not. If you feel the need to leave when a merchant asks for ID then it is there loss. They also have the right to refuse sale of an item if they so chose, it is on the merchant to determine if said card is "valid", some do that by asking for ID, which you seem to take very personal.

 

[aristobrat]

it is on the merchant to determine if said card is "valid", some do that by asking for ID, which you seem to take very personal.

IMO, it all falls under what the merchant agreement says. VISA and MasterCard do not allow the merchant to base "validity" on an ID.

VISA's US merchant agreement says "Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID except in the specific circumstances discussed in this guide, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance."

MasterCard's US merchant agreement says "A Merchant may request but must not require a Cardholder to provide additional identification information as a condition of Card acceptance."

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Frankly I write SEE ID on the back of most of my cards

FWIW, here's what VISA says to do when a customer writes "SEE ID" on the back of their cards. (Emphasis mine)

SEE ID

Some customers write “See ID” or “Ask for ID” in the signature panel, thinking that this is a deterrent against fraud or forgery; that is, if their signature is not onthe card, a fraudster will not be able to forge it. In reality, criminals often don’t take the time to practice signatures. They use cards as quickly as possible after a theft and prior to the accounts being blocked. They are actually counting on you not to look at the back of the card and compare signatures; they may even have access to counterfeit identification with a signature in their own handwriting. In this situation, follow recommended steps listed above under Unsigned Cards.

UNSIGNED CARDS

While checking card security features, you should also make sure that the card is signed. An unsigned card is considered invalid and should not be accepted. If a customer gives you an unsigned card, the following steps must be taken:

• Check the cardholder’s ID. Ask the cardholder for some form of officialgovernment identification, such as a driver’s license or passport. Where permissible by law, the ID serial number and expiration date should be written on the sales receipt before you complete the transaction.

• Ask the customer to sign the card. The card should be signed within your fullview, and the signature checked against the customer’s signature on the ID. A refusal to sign means the card is still invalid and cannot be accepted. Ask the customer for another signed Visa card.

• Compare the signature on the card to the signature on the ID

 

[samiwas]

Still, the OP has not addressed how someone who creates a fake card and signs it will have any problems with signature verification.

I gotta say, this is one odd thing to be this passionate about. Almost like Springs1 with her waiters.

 

[Southern Dad]

I simply show my ID and thank them for helping to combat credit card fraud. I watched a lady pitch a fit at Target one day because they wanted to see ID. She refused. The manager refused to give her back her card or any of her purchases. She just didn't look like a Stephen. She left before the deputies got there.

 

[arogge]

I simply show my ID and thank them for helping to combat credit card fraud. I watched a lady pitch a fit at Target one day because they wanted to see ID. She refused. The manager refused to give her back her card or any of her purchases. She just didn't look like a Stephen. She left before the deputies got there.

In that case, the merchant has done something illegal. They stole the cardholder's card, which is a reportable as a crime, and is serious enough that the credit card company could immediately suspend the merchant account for that store location. I'd call my card company on the spot and have the card suspended, and then file a police report. If a merchant suspects fraud, there is a reporting mechanism available that requires only the card number, location, and reason for suspicion. A seizure for extreme reasons, such as to stall for an abduction in progress or a wanted fugitive, becomes the responsibility of the person doing it. Target isn't looking good about customer privacy lately, either.

 

[arogge]

Still, the OP has not addressed how someone who creates a fake card and signs it will have any problems with signature verification. I gotta say, this is one odd thing to be this passionate about.

Those criminals are more sophisticated, because they are able to obtain the magnetic stripe. It's more likely to be used on the Internet, but still, there are ways of preventing the fraud and limiting liability for the bank. Several years ago, I tried to make a large purchase at a store that I usually buy small stuff from, and the card was declined because the purchase was unusual. This has happened several other times with purchases that were unusual, either because of the location or the amount being charged. A few times the heuristics caught up with what I was doing (like on Black Friday) and the block was removed. A few times I've had to call or respond to a call from the credit card company.

Some people have really been embarrassed at restaurants, after they attempted to pay their bill and the merchant demanded a photo ID, which they didn't have. Then the merchant tried to make the customers out to be criminals who refused to pay. It is the merchant who demands a photo ID as a condition of sale after taking a valid credit card who is in violation! If you don't like the agreements, don't display any card acceptance logos.

 

[bradl]

I simply show my ID and thank them for helping to combat credit card fraud. I watched a lady pitch a fit at Target one day because they wanted to see ID. She refused. The manager refused to give her back her card or any of her purchases. She just didn't look like a Stephen. She left before the deputies got there.

In that case, the merchant has done something illegal. They stole the cardholder's card, which is a reportable as a crime, and is serious enough that the credit card company could immediately suspend the merchant account for that store location. I'd call my card company on the spot and have the card suspended, and then file a police report. If a merchant suspects fraud, there is a reporting mechanism available that requires only the card number, location, and reason for suspicion. A seizure for extreme reasons, such as to stall for an abduction in progress or a wanted fugitive, becomes the responsibility of the person doing it. Target isn't looking good about customer privacy lately, either.

Arogge, you missed the point. Southern Dad just showed to you a case of attempted credit card fraud, and because they asked for ID to verify that SHE was Stephen (which obviously she wasn't), they prevented credit card fraud from occurring. The woman stole the credit card and attempted to use it. The merchant caught onto it and prevented it from happening.

This is a bloody well good reason as to why you ask for ID, yet you're on this tangent that they did something illegal. By your reckoning, you are saying that the merchant is in the wrong, and should have let the fraudulent transaction and purchase go through, robbing someone else of their money.

If you can't see what is wrong with this picture, perhaps having it done to you would change your point of view.

BL.

 

[sumsingwong]

Can I see your ID not your signature? (credit card merchants)

America is so far behind the rest of the world. Mag strip and signature is so Stone Age. PIN and Chip is what we need to move to in America. Wal Mart and Sam's Club already have terminals for this tech. This would help prevent credit card fraud at the point of sale.

As for the OP, a signature has nothing to do with security or verifying identity. If your mag strip was copied due to skimming, the new/fraud card will have a new signature that the perp placed on the account so it will match their signature. Not to hard to figure out. As for your card being used online, the mag strip info is not needed. Just the embossed info on the front, security code off the back and billing address. Why are you so against showing ID when asked by a merchant. They are just protecting the real cardholder and themselves. Yes, there are ways around that by using a fake ID but It's a lot better than comparing signatures.

 

[samiwas]

Those criminals are more sophisticated, because they are able to obtain the magnetic stripe. It's more likely to be used on the Internet, but still, there are ways of preventing the fraud and limiting liability for the bank. Several years ago, I tried to make a large purchase at a store that I usually buy small stuff from, and the card was declined because the purchase was unusual. This has happened several other times with purchases that were unusual, either because of the location or the amount being charged. A few times the heuristics caught up with what I was doing (like on Black Friday) and the block was removed. A few times I've had to call or respond to a call from the credit card company.

Some people have really been embarrassed at restaurants, after they attempted to pay their bill and the merchant demanded a photo ID, which they didn't have. Then the merchant tried to make the customers out to be criminals who refused to pay. It is the merchant who demands a photo ID as a condition of sale after taking a valid credit card who is in violation! If you don't like the agreements, don't display any card acceptance logos.

Tell you what. You keep thinking that some low-wage retail clerk is going to be an expert at signature comparison and thwart fraud, and I'll just think you're wrong and obsessed over nothing.

I have never once, in over 20 years over using credit or mostly debit cards, been called by them, even when I use it one day in Georgia, and the next day in London. So much for the "heuristics".

By the way, where is my ranch dressing???

America is so far behind the rest of the world. Mag strip and signature is so Stone Age. PIN and Chip is what we need to move to in America. Wal Mart and Sam's Club already have terminals for this tech.

America is far behind on numerous things. If it's not an obvious extra bucket of profit, they won't do it.

 

[tigres]

My sig at a terminal is scribble scrabble at best. I have done triangles, circles, squares, and signed vagina.

They always say thank you.

 

[Southern Dad]

I have never once, in over 20 years over using credit or mostly debit cards, been called by them, even when I use it one day in Georgia, and the next day in London. So much for the "heuristics".

By the way, where is my ranch dressing???

My Chase card hadn't been used often, suddenly got used in Georgia then in Florida at Walt Disney World. I got embarrassed when it wouldn't work at a gas pump later that night. Chase blocked it because they thought it was stolen. Initially, I was mad but later not so much. I'm glad that they were watching out.

In Georgia, it isn't unusual to get your ID checked when using a card without your PIN.

 

[sumsingwong]

America is far behind on numerous things. If it's not an obvious extra bucket of profit, they won't do it.

When banks see how much losses they could have prevent by moving to PIN/chip, they will do it. Some big banks have already started the migration. Merchants need to have the terminals to complete this process.