Can only fetch e-mail

Discussion in 'iOS 5 and earlier' started by tildesley, Dec 24, 2011.

  1. tildesley macrumors regular

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    #1
    Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

    Hi

    I have recently setup a new email address with godaddy, I've set the imap server up and put the details in and it works fine on my home macbook, when I've entered the details in to my iPhone though, I can only fetch e-mails despite having the imap, there is no option in the settings for push, I can see fetch & manual but that's it...

    Any ideas?
     
  2. takeshi74 macrumors 601

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    #2
  3. qtx43 macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    I see that page takeshi linked to must have been corrected in the last few days, because the quote is wrong and gone. Strictly speaking, imap does not support push, and even the mechanism used to implement it is optional.

    Practically speaking, Apple must have decided it was too much of a battery and/or bandwidth hog for mobiles. You can, however, check for email every 15 minutes automatically with any imap account in iOS5.
     
  4. andyvp macrumors member

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    #4
    Gmail woun't push either when set up in the Mail app BUT if you set it up as an exchange account it will push.

    I wonder if the same could be done for the Godaddy service??
     
  5. jackhdev macrumors 6502

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    #5
    I thought push was an option if you use the Mail Server (IMAP) included in OS X Lion Server?
     
  6. dotme macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    Exactly. IMAP is a protocol that helps synchronize all mail folders across multiple devices. It doesn't push.
     
  7. dffdce macrumors member

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    #7
    Moot point really however to be completely correct the IMAP protocol DOES push via IMAP IDLE. Apple for some reason decided not to implement it in iOS.
     
  8. takeshi74 macrumors 601

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    #8
    ^ This. Please research before claiming that IMAP cannot push. Push with IMAP IDLE is supported on other devices.
     
  9. dotme macrumors 6502a

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    #9
    I stand corrected. :)

    Unfortunately, not only is IMAP IDLE not implemented in iOS, it's also not supported across all mail server platforms. It seems more of an option than a "standard" per se.

    So it looks like IMAP can push, but only if supported on both ends...
     
  10. qtx43 macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    Wrong. IDLE is the mechanism used to support push, but it does not implement push all by itself, and it is an optional part of the standard. IMAP all by itself does not implement push. Thunderbird, for example, uses Oracle's push extension, and the ietf has been developing their own standard for over a decade (they move really slow). There is no authoratative way to implement push, and it is certainly not part of the IMAP standard.
     
  11. dffdce macrumors member

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    #11
    OK I see we're engaging in a semantics battle -- I'll play. Those of us who have enjoyed push email using IMAP/IDLE for the last 10 years tend to forget what's actually going on under the hood and simply abbreviate the whole process as IDLE.

    IDLE is a mechanism? Technically IDLE is a command sent by the email client to the IMAP server. The IDLE command was implemented in 1997 as a way to allow the server to transmit updates to the client in real time. This essentially alleviates the need for polling. Specifically IDLE was not conceived when the original IMAP RFC was published (1988 I believe) but came later (1997 as I mentioned) in RFC 2177.

    As far as the mechanics of the IDLE command, once sent the client will be instantly notified when new messages arrive. Under the hood this consists simply of the message "1 RECENT", or "2 RECENT" if there are two new messages, etc. If memory serves me correctly there is also a message indicating the "number" of the new message(s).

    Yes with IMAP IDLE the contents of the message is not pushed to the client. However -- and read carefully now -- the important part is that the client is notified immediatley of new email. Did you follow that? The client is notified immediately when new email arrives.

    The beauty of this approach is it's very bandwidth efficient, nothing more than these messages is sent "over the air". If the designers of the IMAP email client choose to they can retrive just header or the whole body upon receipt of a "RECENT" message. Guess what - to the user this looks EXACTLY like push email.

    So in a sense this is true however if you've stayed with me this long you should have realized that providing push email to the user is trivial given the capabilities of IMAP/IDLE.

    I've found no evidence of this? Do have any supporting information, links etc.? Thunderbird DOES use the IMAP IDLE command. Dig out your favorite ethernet sniffer and have a look if you don't believe me.

    Yes I assume you're referring to LEMONADE. In addition to PUSH LEMONADE adds "Forward without download" and "Quick re-synchronisation". But guess what, how do you think they implement push? From the LEMONADE website:

    "The IMAP IDLE command, which is a widely implemented standard extension to the core IMAP protocol and contained within the LEMONADE Profile, ensures that the server will inform the client of new messages even when there is no other activity taking place between client and server."​

    As far as internet "standards" go it really doesn't get more authoritative than RFC's. I mean authentication is not part of the SMTP (email) standard (RFC822) however RFC 2554 makes it possible. There are probably hundreds of examples of this. Standards and extensions to them evolve over time. So to say that PUSH is certainly not part of "the IMAP standard" is pedantically correct however standards are extensible. But with all that said, not all IMAP servers support this capability, google (gmail), Dovecot, Cyrus, Zimbra all do support it, yahoo does not.
     
  12. qtx43 macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    Google is your friend, it's really not that hard to find these things out:
    http://kb.mozillazine.org/IMAP
    ""Push support" is sometimes mis-interpreted as IDLE support but it is actually proprietary Push-IMAP enhancements for mobile devices such as cell phones developed by Oracle."

    IMAP does not implement push. You can have a fully completely implemented IMAP server and client, and it will not push all by itself. I made all of this clear in my original post by contrasting "strictly speaking" with "practically speaking", you just seem to have reading comprehension problems. The protocols for keeping the connection alive etc. is not part of the IMAP standard. And of course it is built on top of IDLE, duh!

    I was disappointed when I discovered that the iPad didn't support push with IMAP, but that's beside the point. Apple can claim to fully support IMAP truthfully, and not have push. Just because you confusingly conflate the two in your head doesn't make it true.
     
  13. dffdce macrumors member

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    #13
    Try not to get yourself all wrapped up in terminology. The only thing you've made clear to me is that you in fact are new to this. I've had to explain this process to many people over the years. It's much easiser face to face with a white board and a live instance of an IMAP client connected to an IMAP server with wireshark exposing what's really going on, but for your benefit I'll give it another shot.

    So you scoured the whole internet and that's what you came up with? Really? Just one out of context sentence? You neglected to post the previous three sentences,

    "Push e-mail" means that when a message is delivered to the mailbox you want to get immediately notified of it. Thunderbird provides that if your IMAP server supports the optional IDLE command. The IDLE command eliminates the need for a e-mail client to poll for new mail - the mail server automatically notifies the e-mail client whenever there is new mail."​

    Read the sentence you posted very carefully it says, "'Push support' is sometimes mis-interpreted as IDLE support..." It does NOT say "IDLE support is sometimes mis-interpreted as 'Push support'..." Do you understand the difference? If not read both phrases again until you do. The point they (Mozilla) are trying to make is that the proprietary protocol called "Push-IMAP" is mistaken for IDLE. They achieve similar results in different ways. For example "Push-IMAP" can use one of three ways to provide notification, IDLE, SMS or WAP Push. IMAP IDLE can only use IDLE for notification.

    Oh young qtx43 indeed it does and indeed it will! If I get the time I'll capture packets between Thunderbird and an IMAP server and post them.

    Really? So you believe that the authors of RFC 2177 implemented the IDLE command without any means for keeping the TCP connection alive? IDLE maintains the connection by issuing a 'NOOP' command.

    I'll keep this short for now but will post more if necessary as the "education of qtx43" thread continues...
     
  14. dotme macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    I'm not sure there's any need to be quite that condescending... wow.

    Despite your assertion to the contrary, I think qtx43 is quite correct when he states that "You can have a fully completely implemented IMAP server and client, and it will not push all by itself."

    The IDLE command may be used with any IMAP4 server implementation that returns "IDLE" as one of the supported capabilities to the CAPABILITY command. If the server does not advertise the IDLE capability, the client MUST NOT use the IDLE command and must poll for mailbox updates.

    Source: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2177

    My point is, not all mail servers that support IMAP support IDLE.
     
  15. dffdce macrumors member

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    #15
    Ah yes you could not hear my tone of voice when I typed that. Indeed it was not meant as condescending at all. My apologies.

    And yes I fully agree! But it is also true that "You can have a fully completely implemented IMAP server and client, and it will push all by itself." This is has been for many years the "normal" case. As new email providers have come on line some have dropped or never supported IDLE (yahoo for example). However the list of IMAP servers that do support IDLE is MUCH longer than the list of those that don't. Again this concept is true for numerous internet standards.

    To use my previous example not all SMTP servers support authentication. Most do however with the introduction of RFC 2554 (or now RFC 4954). So is it correct for me to make the statement that SMTP servers unequivocally do not support authentication?
     
  16. dotme macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    I get it now... lol - Fair enough :)
     

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