Can someone please help me to understand hard-disk spin-down? I would appreciate it!

[dime21]

I hate the spin down of hard disks. I have it disabled on every one of my computers. The long laaaaaaaag you experience when it has to spin the drive back up to fetch some data is so irritating!! I'm almost always on the AC adapter, not running off of battery, so I don't give a crap about saving the paltry few watts of power consumption.

When I close the lid and put the machine to sleep, that is the only time I want the drives spinning down.

 

[rmitchell248]

I hate the spin down of hard disks. I have it disabled on every one of my computers. The long laaaaaaaag you experience when it has to spin the drive back up to fetch some data is so irritating!! I'm almost always on the AC adapter, not running off of battery, so I don't give a crap about saving the paltry few watts of power consumption.

When I close the lid and put the machine to sleep, that is the only time I want the drives spinning down.

I agree with this. Why pay for a fast drive and let it sleep....

Anyhow to miss teri. I just grabbed my wifes 2010 (same exact specs as yours) and the drive never spins down. Even with the settings all set to do so, every configuration I can come up with. The only difference is that it is quiet and you really have to feel for it to tell its running.

I will give you my best guess. Either your drive is bad or louder than your previous model. Or you have acquired more sensitive senses since the last machines you have had

Now in my mac pros the drives sleep and spin up/down as the settings command them to. All but the boot drive~

 

[bperrella]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.2; en-us; Droid Build/FRG22D) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1)

Miss T -- at least in my experience its never a good idea to do a time machine restore from one machine to another unless they have identical hardware.. i would try a fresh install of os x and manually restore your files and settings.

 

[wct097]

I agree with this. Why pay for a fast drive and let it sleep....

Because I have a faster drive to boot from, and only need my data drive sporadically.

 

[diamond.g]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.2; en-us; Droid Build/FRG22D) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1)

Miss T -- at least in my experience its never a good idea to do a time machine restore from one machine to another unless they have identical hardware.. i would try a fresh install of os x and manually restore your files and settings.

You shouldn't do a restore, but it is okay to do a migration from TM as it will only copy user files over. When you do your first TM backup to the same drive it will then ask if you want to start a new backup or use the existing one, knowing that your old computers will no longer be able to get to it.

 

[rmitchell248]

Because I have a faster drive to boot from, and only need my data drive sporadically.

that works for you and anyone with multiple drives I also have an SSD drive to boot from as well and 4 fast drives to pull data from, I let them sleep as well. I was talking with the OP and her particular situation or anybody in her position with one drive. I dont care how fast you HDD is, if its your combined data/boot drive or just your boot and you let it sleep its a waste.

 

[wct097]

that works for you and anyone with multiple drives I also have an SSD drive to boot from as well and 4 fast drives to pull data from, I let them sleep as well. I was talking with the OP and her particular situation or anybody in her position with one drive. I dont care how fast you HDD is, if its your combined data/boot drive or just your boot and you let it sleep its a waste.

Gotcha. Yea, if you want your primary drive to spin down while you're using it, you're probably asking too much.

Which reminds me. Way back in the day, under System 7, the OS had the ability to create a RAM Disk. I would frequently create a RAM Disk, copy the system folder and an app (game) to it, reboot, and run completely on RAM with the HDD spun down. Made my old PB 1400cs run for ages on battery power.

 

[Prodo123]

This noise issue is the same problem I'm having with my 2010 Mbp. I've gone through 3 hard drives: New Apple hard drive replaced at store, Segate Momentus XT, and now a Hitachi Travelstar. I still have the same humming/whirling noise that drives me crazy. I'm going to try and change the sleep settings, maybe that will work.

If you want a hard drive, then you also have to accept the fact that it will make some noise! Deal with it, or shell out some bucks for a silent SSD.

 

[Biff...]

If you want a hard drive, then you also have to accept the fact that it will make some noise! Deal with it, or shell out some bucks for a silent SSD.

Thanks for your insightful advice

 

[Miss Terri]

In theory, yes.
In practice, maybe not.

Go into your system profiler and serial-ata and post up your HDD model/serial and we can go out and check the vendor's website for updates or known issues.

[sent from my android]

Here is the hard drive info. I left out the serial number, but.... is the rest of the info enough?

 

[Miss Terri]

I
To the OP: It is most likely a firmware problem. Just as sandforce based SSDs have trouble starting up from hibernation, it is possible that your model HDD has problems spinning down with 10.6.4.

Well from what I am being told now, it's impossible to have one's primary hard drive spin down while the computer is running. I had thought for sure that my old computers' hard drives were spun down much of the time, but I guess since that's not possible they were simply quieter.

 

[Miss Terri]

Miss T -- at least in my experience its never a good idea to do a time machine restore from one machine to another unless they have identical hardware.. i would try a fresh install of os x and manually restore your files and settings.

Hi bperrella,

I didn't do a restore from TM, I did a Migration. In other words, when you start up a brand new Mac, one of the first screens asks you if you have a prior Mac, and if so you can "migrate" from either the prior Mac itself or a TM backup. I selected the Time Machine backup radio button and then proceeded to follow the Mac's suggested path (attach the drive and migrate, basically).

However, I have done this on all my new Macs (even from my old Power PC to my Macbook) and I have never found any problems with it. I thought that was the purpose of Migration Assistant IIRC, Apple's documentation on it explains that software on the old machine (or TM backup) will "defer" to any newer versions of the same software on the new machine. If anything registers as "wonky" it puts it in a special folder for you to look at.

 

[Miss Terri]

If you want a hard drive, then you also have to accept the fact that it will make some noise! Deal with it, or shell out some bucks for a silent SSD.

I have a hard time agreeing with that, as I have been using Apple laptops since my Duo 280c back in the 1990s (the original Air ). None of them have had hard drives that hum or vibrate the machine.

 

[Miss Terri]

Sorry to dredge this back up, but I am still curious/frustrated about one thing.

Many people here have said that the internal hard drive of a computer in use simply cannot spin down, and that Apple's check box (System Prefs-->Energy Saver) to "Always sleep (spin down) hard disk when possible" only applies to external drives.

This didn't fit with the behavior on all my previous Apple latops, but then I really don't know that much about computers, so who am I to argue? (Still, I have to admit that the preference as set up in System Prefs doesn't really make sense to me to ONLY apply external drives.)

But okay, I just more or less resigned myself to disliking this computer and to shopping for a different, quieter hard drive. Even though I just bought this one, it's plenty big, etc. Not that my other hard drives were silent, but since they were usually spun down they didn't bother me when they occasionally spun up.

But, now I'm reading Anandtech's really great and thorough review of the new MBP's and in the maximum battery life test they did this:

Light Web Browsing

Here we're simply listing to MP3s in iTunes on repeat while browsing through a series of webpages with no flash on them. Each page forwards on to the next in the series after 20 seconds.

The display is kept at 50% brightness, all screen savers are disabled, but the hard drive is allowed to go to sleep if there's no disk activity. The wireless connection is enabled and connected to a local access point less than 20 feet away. This test represents the longest battery life you can achieve on the platform while doing minimal work. The results here are comparable to what you'd see typing a document in TextEdit or reading documents.

Doesn't this seem to indicate that my original understanding was correct, and that internal hard drives do have the ability to spin down under light use? It sounds like it to me. My typical usage is exactly what they are talking about above, and apparently their hard drive spins down during such use, unless I'm completely mis-understanding them. Mine also seemed to in my previous Apple laptops.

So now I'm feeling frustrated, as I hate having an issue that I can't get to the bottom of. Whether I can fix it or not is secondary, but I want to understand how it is supposed to work!

Thanks to anyone who bothers to read through and reply

MT
2010 MBP 13" 2.4ghz, 4g RAM, 250g Toshiba HD, 10.6.4

 

[wct097]

Sorry to dredge this back up, but I am still curious/frustrated about one thing.

Many people here have said that the internal hard drive of a computer in use simply cannot spin down, and that Apple's check box (System Prefs-->Energy Saver) to "Always sleep (spin down) hard disk when possible" only applies to external drives.

It doesn't only apply to external drives. I have a SSD & HDD in my MBP, and the HDD spins down most of the time as I use the SSD primarily. Thus it can apply to internal drives, but it's unlikely that your boot drive will ever be able to spin down as any disk access resets that timer, or spins the drive back up. Almost anything you do besides sitting there doing nothing (and maybe even then) will probably cause disk access to your boot drive.

Doesn't this seem to indicate that my original understanding was correct, and that internal hard drives do have the ability to spin down under light use? It sounds like it to me. My typical usage is exactly what they are talking about above, and apparently their hard drive spins down during such use, unless I'm completely mis-understanding them. Mine also seemed to in my previous Apple laptops.

I think the checkbox in question allows the disk to sleep after 10 minutes of inactivity. I don't *know* about textedit, but some/most good word processors auto-save on an interval less than 10 minutes, which would cause disk activity. Likewise, listening to iTunes on shuffle would cause disk activity more often than every 10 minutes... unless the songs you listen to are generally longer than 10 minutes (and even then, it may still read from the disk).

So now I'm feeling frustrated, as I hate having an issue that I can't get to the bottom of. Whether I can fix it or not is secondary, but I want to understand how it is supposed to work!

Thanks to anyone who bothers to read through and reply

MT
2010 MBP 13" 2.4ghz, 4g RAM, 250g Toshiba HD, 10.6.4

Is your issue vibration, noise, or battery life? If it's noise, are you hearing clicking/mechanical noise or whirring? If it's the former, that's the read heads moving, meaning that your computer is accessing the disk. If it's the latter, then a quieter HDD or SSD would probably help.

 

[Miss Terri]

It doesn't only apply to external drives.

Thank you for that info.

I think the checkbox in question allows the disk to sleep after 10 minutes of inactivity.

That is correct, although I changed the setting to 2 minutes via Terminal, for easier testing. Yet, if I close ALL programs and let the computer sit idle for 20 minutes.... no spin-down at all during that time. (It was the same at the default 10 minutes.)

I don't *know* about textedit, but some/most good word processors auto-save on an interval less than 10 minutes, which would cause disk activity.

Good point. I guess really I was thinking of when I am, say, just reading a book on the screen. With all my previous laptops, the drive would be spun-down most of the time, then spin up when I "did something."

Is your issue vibration, noise, or battery life? If it's noise, are you hearing clicking/mechanical noise or whirring?

It's the constant low-grade whirring/shooshing/hard drive ON noise and vibration in the palm rest that made me notice it. I don't like it and none of my other Macs have done it, so I couldn't help but notice it. Suddenly it's a huge relief to just shut the thing down and have peace and quiet and not feel like I'm running a lawnmower (vibration). Never felt that way before! I know what you mean about the clicking or drive heads parking, and I do get that, but only occasionally and it's not a bother at all.

Now, I could just get an SSD, but...

1) I just bought a computer with what should be a perfectly good hard drive that is just the right size to where I don't have to "worry" about building up too much data on it. A 250g SSD would be really expensive, and a 120g would be somewhat expensive and I would have to fool with external storage and plus just *think about* what I'm saving --- which I don't have to do at all now.

2) If there is something wrong that is not letting the hard drive spin down, I don't want to just mask it by getting an SSD; I want to figure out what's going on. So far the information has been somewhat contradictory, and I'm trying to understand what is correct.

I appreciate your taking the time to post. Thank you

Miss Terri
2010 MBP 13", 2.4gz C2D, 4g RAM, 250g stock Toshiba HD, 10.6.4

 

[wct097]

Good point. I guess really I was thinking of when I am, say, just reading a book on the screen. With all my previous laptops, the drive would be spun-down most of the time, then spin up when I "did something."

I don't pretend to know the in's and out's of OS X, as I'm relatively new to the Mac game, but there could be a number of things that are impacting your disk activity, which is preventing your drive from spinning down. Under Windows, I'd suspect a paging file or background process is your culprit, but I don't really know what to look for in OS X. It could be the system doing housekeeping tasks or something to that effect.

I only have Firefox, SMC Fan Control, and Activity Monitor running now. Under Activity Monitor I see pretty regular disk activity. I suspect it's due to the web browser being open and downloading images for the ads showing on this screen, but like I said, it could be the OS doing housekeeping.

It's the constant low-grade whirring/shooshing/hard drive ON noise and vibration in the palm rest that made me notice it. I don't like it and none of my other Macs have done it, so I couldn't help but notice it. Suddenly it's a huge relief to just shut the thing down and have peace and quiet and not feel like I'm running a lawnmower (vibration). Never felt that way before! I know what you mean about the clicking or drive heads parking, and I do get that, but only occasionally and it's not a bother at all.

I wonder if your current computer has a 7200rpm drive as opposed to 5400 or slower previously. Maybe someone can tell by the details you posted above. I installed my 500gb 7200rpm drive briefly in my new MBP, and could certainly feel the vibration in the palm rest. Now I have a WD 1tb 5200rpm drive in it's place (in addition to the SSD) and can't feel it at all, though I can hear it spin up. Once it's spun up, I don't really hear it unless it's super quiet (can't hear it over the a/c right now).

2) If there is something wrong that is not letting the hard drive spin down, I don't want to just mask it by getting an SSD; I want to figure out what's going on. So far the information has been somewhat contradictory, and I'm trying to understand what is correct.

That, I really don't know. I generally wouldn't expect the system drive to spin down under normal usage, but I suppose it's possible. Maybe someone with more knowledge of OS X can chime in.

If it turns out that you have a 7200rpm drive, swapping to a 5400 or 5200 rpm variety would probably make a big difference in noise & vibration at a substantially lower price than a SSD (1tb for $120).

I appreciate your taking the time to post. Thank you

Glad I could help a little.

 

[Miss Terri]

I have the stock Toshiba 5400rpm 250g drive.

The thing is, a friend of mine has virtually the identical computer, in a 2010 Macbook. In fact it was mine, but I found that I did not want to keep a Mac that did not have Firewire, nor an external battery monitor (which were present on my earlier Mac laptops). So he now has that computer and I have the MBP. It has the same processor, same OS, same programs, and "same" hard drive (in quotes because I have not opened that computer to see the brand, although it is also the stock, 250g, 5400 rpm drive). When we do similar things, the hard drive on that computer is silent (I assume spun down?) while mine is whirring away.

This friend will be here for a visit shortly, so we can look at the hard drive on the Macbook and also have our computers doing identical things side by side.

Now clearly, I could just have a defective or overly-noisy drive. BUT, I've been hearing and reading so much conflicting information about the spin-down feature that it's clouding the issue, and I would like to know for sure how it is supposed to behave.

MT