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Z28McCrory

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Jan 20, 2014
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Indiana
Hi,

I’m gathering info to help me decide on an upgrade from my late 2013 rMPB and 2013 MP.

I’ve found the Puget benchmarks to reflect the type of real world scenarios I’m interested in. So I’m very curious how a high spec 16” MBP would do on this particular one: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/a...hotoshop-1132/#DownloadPugetBenchforPhotoshop

If anyone has a 16” with an 8-core (either 2.3 or 2.4), the 8 GB 550M, and 32 or 64 GB of Ram would please run this benchmark, I’d greatly appreciate it!
 

bsbeamer

macrumors 601
Sep 19, 2012
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PsBenchResults_12-13-17-48.jpg

Left the default automatic graphics switching turned on, did NOT use performance mode of just 5500M. Power plugged in throughout the test.

MBP16,1 2.4/64GB/8GB/1TB
 

Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
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Indiana
Thank you! That helps a lot.

My goal was to get a baseline for how the 16" would compare to my current 2013 Mac Pro (I knew it would blow my late 2013 15" rMBP out of the water).

In case anyone is curious, this is how a 6 Core Xeon 3.5 GHz/64 GB/2x 3GB FirePro D500 compares.

PsBenchResults_12-12-16-2.jpg
 

bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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Will try to run again with RX 5700 XT 8GB in eGPU at some point over the next week or two.

Worth mentioning - 10.14.6/Mojave has a LOT better GPU performance than anything in 10.15.2/Catalina in all my testing so far. An MP5,1 with RX580 in 10.14.6 is about 15-20% higher on all GPU benchmark tests vs RX 5700 XT via eGPU on MBP16,1 in 10.15.2. Real-world I'm seeing around a 33% hit on specific METAL tests.
 
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Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
112
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Indiana
I'd definitely be interested to see those results.

I'm trying to decide my upgrade path. I rarely use my late 2013 MacBook Pro anymore (mainly because it can't really keep up with the high megapixel photos, and 4k video), so its sort of retired (I only use it when I travel). Any real work is done on my trashcan Mac Pro, but its also really struggling with certain video workflows.

One scenario is to buy a 16" MacBook Pro and use it as my "everything" computer (it replace both my current MBP and MP). The other scenario is to go straight for a new Mac Pro and continue using my current MacBook Pro that same as I do now (which is the solution I'm leaning more toward... but that obviously makes the wallet hurt a lot more).

Decisions, decisions.
 
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bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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The MBP16,1 is a great machine and plenty fast, but in my short time testing I'm not exactly feeling like I could use this as a full-time desktop replacement. Originally had planned to split the load between this and a desktop for a few months while I waited out the MP7,1 decision (and needed the 2019 tax deduction).

Yes, the MBP16,1 can and does absolutely work but there are some shortcomings compared to MP5,1/MP6,1 setups. It's certainly a great secondary or complementary machine. Even great just for the immediately useable backup to a desktop if that's stuck in a long render.

If they/Apple addressed the eGPU shortcomings and limitations in Catalina (think it's "just" a driver issue) that could make a tremendous difference. But overall, just feel Catalina isn't ready for primetime yet compared to Mojave. Typically would have waited until February 2020 to update, but no choice with MBP16,1.

Really purchased this MBP16,1 as a replacement for an aging MBP that was having a hard time doing much more than email and document stuff. (At least a hard time doing it quickly.) PS would work OK for some projects, but making changes in AE or PPro was unbearable when traveling. There are things I liked better about that machine, including the trackpad, but think I'll get used to the changes of the MBP16,1 in time.

Personally waiting out the MP7,1. Absolutely want it, but at $7K configured without monitor (not even the config I'd actually want) it is not an impulse purchase. Am also considering an iMac/iMacPro and hate myself for it. If there was an i9 MacMini update or a Xeon MacMiniPro, I'd preorder (maybe more than one).
 

Macshroomer

macrumors 65816
Dec 6, 2009
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Personally waiting out the MP7,1. Absolutely want it, but at $7K configured without monitor (not even the config I'd actually want) it is not an impulse purchase. Am also considering an iMac/iMacPro and hate myself for it. If there was an i9 MacMini update or a Xeon MacMiniPro, I'd preorder (maybe more than one).

In terms of the 7,1 I am going to wait until at least 2021 to pull the trigger since I am looking at about $18,000 sans monitor in the setup I want to do which has to be a significant upgrade from my current machine ( iMac Pro 3.0ghz) . I am not sure why you are down on the iMac Pro, my 10 core / 128GB / 16GB Vega is an absolute beast and now looks like a bargain compared to the new Mac Pro.

In fact, I bet you will see a number of them on the used market as 7,1's deliver making it a high value option. And finally, OWC will upgrade the RAM in my iMac Pro from the current 128GB to 256GB for $1,800 with the $700 rebate for the 128 sticks so it has a bit more longevity if I need it.

But the 16" for me is doing very well as a solid roadie, my build is i9 2.4 / 64GB / 8GB / 4TB:

BenchResults.12.13.19.jpg
 

Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
112
53
Indiana
The MBP16,1 is a great machine and plenty fast, but in my short time testing I'm not exactly feeling like I could use this as a full-time desktop replacement. Originally had planned to split the load between this and a desktop for a few months while I waited out the MP7,1 decision (and needed the 2019 tax deduction).

Yes, the MBP16,1 can and does absolutely work but there are some shortcomings compared to MP5,1/MP6,1 setups. It's certainly a great secondary or complementary machine. Even great just for the immediately useable backup to a desktop if that's stuck in a long render.

If they/Apple addressed the eGPU shortcomings and limitations in Catalina (think it's "just" a driver issue) that could make a tremendous difference. But overall, just feel Catalina isn't ready for primetime yet compared to Mojave. Typically would have waited until February 2020 to update, but no choice with MBP16,1.

Really purchased this MBP16,1 as a replacement for an aging MBP that was having a hard time doing much more than email and document stuff. (At least a hard time doing it quickly.) PS would work OK for some projects, but making changes in AE or PPro was unbearable when traveling. There are things I liked better about that machine, including the trackpad, but think I'll get used to the changes of the MBP16,1 in time.

Personally waiting out the MP7,1. Absolutely want it, but at $7K configured without monitor (not even the config I'd actually want) it is not an impulse purchase. Am also considering an iMac/iMacPro and hate myself for it. If there was an i9 MacMini update or a Xeon MacMiniPro, I'd preorder (maybe more than one).

I really appreciate the insight. I do photography and video production for a living, and this decision has been weighting heavily on my mind.

Back in late 2013, when I first bought my rMBP, I used it as my full time desktop replacement (used a pair of external 27" monitors, mouse, keyboard, etc in clamshell mode). It wasn't ideal, and it felt like a temporary solution at best. I ended up buying the MP6,1 a year or so later, and it was a huge step up.

I rarely need to be mobile when I work. 99% of the time I'm editing at home. The other 1% of the time is when I just need a quick solution on the road (transferring media, etc) or some light photo editing.

Truth be told, the MP6,1 isn't cutting it anymore. It's mostly fine when it comes to my photography workflow (Fuji GFX 50S images in Capture One and Photoshop). But, it performs very poorly when it comes to color grading 4k footage in Premiere. I have a mix of formats ranging from GoPros, Fuji XT-3, DJI Mavic Pro 2, and a Sony FS7. So everything is 4k, but the formats with higher compression like the H.264 and H.265 are terrible to work with.

My "gut" is telling me to just suck it up and spend the money on a MP7,1 and be set for many years to come. I'm looking at the 12 or 16 core. For the GPU I'm debating between a Vega II, or saving a little money and ordering the base GPU and picking up a VII for a fraction of the Vega II price.
 

bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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But the 16" for me is doing very well as a solid roadie, my build is i9 2.4 / 64GB / 8GB / 4TB:

View attachment 882632

Very similar spec'd to my MBP16,1 2.4/64GB/8GB/1TB. Only difference is the 1TB>4TB SSD. Curious if you setup with automatic graphics switching for your GPU or not. The GPU scores here are 37/90 and a huge difference for being so identical.
 
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Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
112
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Indiana
In terms of the 7,1 I am going to wait until at least 2021 to pull the trigger since I am looking at about $18,000 sans monitor in the setup I want to do which has to be a significant upgrade from my current machine ( iMac Pro 3.0ghz) . I am not sure why you are down on the iMac Pro, my 10 core / 128GB / 16GB Vega is an absolute beast and now looks like a bargain compared to the new Mac Pro.

In fact, I bet you will see a number of them on the used market as 7,1's deliver making it a high value option. And finally, OWC will upgrade the RAM in my iMac Pro from the current 128GB to 256GB for $1,800 with the $700 rebate for the 128 sticks so it has a bit more longevity if I need it.

But the 16" for me is doing very well as a solid roadie, my build is i9 2.4 / 64GB / 8GB / 4TB:

Thanks for running the benchmark. Its interesting to see how much it varies from bsbeamers results.

An iMac Pro would have been a good choice for me 2 years ago, but I wouldn't consider one now until they do a refresh on it. I already have a pair of good 4k monitors, so I'd rather spend the money on a "headless" Mac. Given the time I plan to keep my next desktop (6+ years), I think the MP7,1 would serve me better for longer. And if I divide the extra cost out by the number of additional years it will be a capable machine, the cost different is no longer a consideration.
 

Macshroomer

macrumors 65816
Dec 6, 2009
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Very similar spec'd to my MBP16,1 2.4/64GB/8GB/1TB. Only difference is the 1TB>4TB SSD. Curious if you setup with automatic graphics switching for your GPU or not. The GPU scores here are 37/90 and a huge difference for being so identical.

I am not sure but here is a screen shot of those prefs:

Screen Shot 2019-12-13 at 5.46.01 PM.png


Thanks for running the benchmark. Its interesting to see how much it varies from bsbeamers results.

An iMac Pro would have been a good choice for me 2 years ago, but I wouldn't consider one now until they do a refresh on it. I already have a pair of good 4k monitors, so I'd rather spend the money on a "headless" Mac. Given the time I plan to keep my next desktop (6+ years), I think the MP7,1 would serve me better for longer. And if I divide the extra cost out by the number of additional years it will be a capable machine, the cost different is no longer a consideration.

For you in particular and what you are coming from I would say just get the 7,1. I also do full time photo work, highest res is a 50MP Hasselblad file. I am also looking at the 16 core with a crap load of third party ram and the Vega II Duo but as I said above, I can roll with my iMac Pro awhile longer.

I do a lot of on location work so I am really happy with the new 16".
 

Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
112
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Indiana
For you in particular and what you are coming from I would say just get the 7,1. I also do full time photo work, highest res is a 50MP Hasselblad file. I am also looking at the 16 core with a crap load of third party ram and the Vega II Duo but as I said above, I can roll with my iMac Pro awhile longer.

I do a lot of on location work so I am really happy with the new 16".

I'm sure the 16" would serve me very well. The performance from the benchmark you posted was reassuring (to see it solidly outperform my current MP6,1 in every test). So its undeniably better than anything I currently have.

But, I don't currently have the same need as you for location work, so I agree that the 7,1 makes the most sense. I still plan to upgrade my current rMBP at some point, but based on how I currently use it I can easily get another year or two before I "need" to upgrade it.

I'll likely go with the 16 core. To help offset cost a bit, I'll may skip the Vega II and go with a VII (and then upgrade the GPU in a few years as technology advances). And same for ram... I'll go third party and add more when necessary (order base, then replace with 6x16 or 6x32 to start)
 

Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
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Indiana
Just thought I would throw my test results in, 2.4/64 GB/5500M 8/2TB

Thank you! Again, confirming that a nicely spec'd 16" outperforms anything I currently own.
[automerge]1576287070[/automerge]
the iMac Pro, my 10 core / 128GB / 16GB Vega is an absolute beast and now looks like a bargain compared to the new Mac Pro.

Macshroomer, for the sake of comparison, would you mind also running this Puget benchmark on your iMac Pro?
 
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bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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PsBenchResults_12-13-20-18.jpg

Must have been another Catalina glitch. Machine had been on for 2-3 days straight. Restarted and immediately opened PS to run again. GPU score soared. Something else to keep an eye on.
 
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Macshroomer

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Thank you! Again, confirming that a nicely spec'd 16" outperforms anything I currently own.
[automerge]1576287070[/automerge]


Macshroomer, for the sake of comparison, would you mind also running this Puget benchmark on your iMac Pro?

I’m curious how it will do,so when I get home tomorrow I will give it a whirl.

By the way, it can get testy-toasty-trollie in this place sometimes so I have to say thanks for putting out something real and meaningful for us all to talk about.
 
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Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
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Jan 20, 2014
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Indiana
I’m curious how it will do,so when I get home tomorrow I will give it a whirl.

By the way, it can get testy-toasty-trollie in this place sometimes so I have to say thanks for putting out something real and meaningful for us all to talk about.

This has all been extremely helpful to me. I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to run the benchmark.

I often debate new purchases for way longer than I should, and this all helps me reassure myself that it’s an informed decision and not an impulse
[automerge]1576289171[/automerge]
View attachment 882647

Must have been another Catalina glitch. Machine had been on for 2-3 days straight. Restarted and immediately opened PS to run again. GPU score soared. Something else to keep an eye on.

Thanks for running the benchmark again. I was definitely curious why your results were so much different.
 

JustHereforHelp69

macrumors newbie
May 9, 2018
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This has all been extremely helpful to me. I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to run the benchmark.

I often debate new purchases for way longer than I should, and this all helps me reassure myself that it’s an informed decision and not an impulse
Totally reasonable, I think that the point of these types of boards is for that very reason. I'm going to be jealous when/if you get that Mac Pro 7,1, regardless anything seems like it will be a step up from the trashcan
 
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bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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Trashcan MP6,1 is about 75-100 points on total score over the MP5,1 cheese grater for this test. However, does NOT seem like both CPUs in the dual X5690 setup in MP5,1 were being utilized and report stated 6 cores (not 12). I know this is partially (mostly) PS not taking advantage, but real world difference between this MP5,1 and MP6,1 is not that drastic.

MBP16,1 is close to double the MP5,1 performance on this test. Says a lot for power of this laptop.
 

bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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PsBenchResults_12-14-11-4.jpg

Here's the result with RX 5700 XT 8GB in eGPU (Sonnet eGFX Breakaway Box 650 GPU-650WOC-TB3) on MBP16,1 2.4/64GB/8GB/1TB.

As I've been mentioning in other threads, the drivers for RX 5700 XT are just not that good. Poor performance in 10.15.2, especially when compared to an RX 580 in Mojave. Even the 5500M can outperform in SHORT GPU tasks. Have noticed in some longer METAL tasks with video, the eGPU even with the poor drivers does perform better. Really hoping when the W5700X is released the drivers will improve, or in 10.15.3. Absolutely would not recommend an RX 5700 XT at this time for macOS. Get an RX580 for under $175 if you need an eGPU.
 

Z28McCrory

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Indiana
View attachment 882746

Here's the result with RX 5700 XT 8GB in eGPU (Sonnet eGFX Breakaway Box 650 GPU-650WOC-TB3) on MBP16,1 2.4/64GB/8GB/1TB.

As I've been mentioning in other threads, the drivers for RX 5700 XT are just not that good. Poor performance in 10.15.2, especially when compared to an RX 580 in Mojave. Even the 5500M can outperform in SHORT GPU tasks. Have noticed in some longer METAL tasks with video, the eGPU even with the poor drivers does perform better. Really hoping when the W5700X is released the drivers will improve, or in 10.15.3. Absolutely would not recommend an RX 5700 XT at this time for macOS. Get an RX580 for under $175 if you need an eGPU.

Thanks for posting these numbers.

One of the options I was considering at one point, was to buy a 16” and run a VII as an eGpu. I thought this may give a considerable improvement in applications that could utilize the GPU (Divinci Resolve once I start using it more, and Capture One also seems to able to put the GPU to work much more efficiently than Adobe suite). Overall it may even exceed the performance of an iMac Pro... at least that’s what I had “guessed”?

Somewhere along the way, I also considered running a VII eGpu with my 6,1 (I’ve read a bit about a workaround to get eGpus to work over TB2, though it seemed a little bit too much of a “workaround” to get it to consistently and reliably work)
 

bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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I'd honestly wait for updated drivers before seriously considering anything released after RX580 Vega56/64. Hearing of issues with RX560 and RX590 in Catalina as well. There are/were even issues with RX580's in official configs with MacMini that would not load properly in Catalina. The drivers are a mess right now and Apple really needs to fix/address some of the issues sooner than later.

My personal guess - the engineers and developers who would work on this aspect of performance improvement were "tied up" with MP7,1 and MBP16,1 release and related. There have been some developer tickets with actual responses recently, so maybe it's a good sign of progress (soon).
 

Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
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Indiana
I'd honestly wait for updated drivers before seriously considering anything released after RX580 Vega56/64. Hearing of issues with RX560 and RX590 in Catalina as well. There are/were even issues with RX580's in official configs with MacMini that would not load properly in Catalina. The drivers are a mess right now and Apple really needs to fix/address some of the issues sooner than later.

My personal guess - the engineers and developers who would work on this aspect of performance improvement were "tied up" with MP7,1 and MBP16,1 release and related. There have been some developer tickets with actual responses recently, so maybe it's a good sign of progress (soon).

Do you think this would also be the case if I decided to drop a VII in a 7,1? My hope was that since it’s so similar to a Vega II, that it would be very well supported and optimized.
 

bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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My guess is the initial macOS release for MP7,1 is not going to be with optimized drivers. I think 10.15.3 should bring the first round of changes and optimizations. (For $6K+, it better.)

As for VII, the benchmark METAL scores right now in Catalina I'm seeing being reported are not fantastic. The RX580 in Mojave is also beating or coming very close to matching the VII. It's almost pathetic and should not be this way. All signs point to driver issues.

The RX580 is a sub $175 GPU and close to dated technology. I realize it's never been the latest and greatest immediately on macOS when it comes to GPUs, but there are so many signs and promises of GPU performance in the past year, including the official eGPU support, that it should no longer be this way.

Also see Note #2 for VII:
https://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/Compatibility_Graphics_Cards.pdf

Screen Shot 2019-12-14 at 3.14.51 PM.png
 

Z28McCrory

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 20, 2014
112
53
Indiana
My guess is the initial macOS release for MP7,1 is not going to be with optimized drivers. I think 10.15.3 should bring the first round of changes and optimizations. (For $6K+, it better.)

As for VII, the benchmark METAL scores right now in Catalina I'm seeing being reported are not fantastic. The RX580 in Mojave is also beating or coming very close to matching the VII. It's almost pathetic and should not be this way. All signs point to driver issues.

The RX580 is a sub $175 GPU and close to dated technology. I realize it's never been the latest and greatest immediately on macOS when it comes to GPUs, but there are so many signs and promises of GPU performance in the past year, including the official eGPU support, that it should no longer be this way.

Also see Note #2 for VII:
https://www.sonnettech.com/support/downloads/manuals/Compatibility_Graphics_Cards.pdf

View attachment 882809

Oh wow... that fan issue is a huge red flag.

You may have just saved me a lot of frustration (and money if they wouldn’t allow me to return them). I had a pair of VIIs in my cart and was considering buying them today while they’re still in stock. But if they’re going to have a potential issue like that, I’ll have to wait and see.
 
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