Resolved Cannot get Beige G3 to boot Mac OS X

[Project Alice]

This G3 just refuses to boot OS X. It's a 300Mhz "Mini tower". 384MB of ram, and an ATI Radeon 7000 32MB GPU. According to LEM I have a REV 2 logicboard.
Mac OS 9.2.2 installs and boots just fine. What happens is when selecting the OS X install disc in Xpostfacto, it gives me this "can't OPEN" over and over again and eventually reboots.
I am trying to install Tiger. Now, this also happens with Jaguar which is officially supported on this machine. It can boot the Jaguar install disc, but once installed booting to the internal HDD with Jaguar gives me the exact same output, forcing me to boot back into OS 9.

I have been at this for about three days. The only thing on google I can find about this is to "Make sure the hard drive jumper is set to Master". Trust me, it is. So is the optical drive.
I've tried different hard drives, removing the ZIP drive completely, I even put in a DVD drive to try a regular Tiger DVD. Same story. It just doesn't work.

To answer all of the basic questions so none of you have to ask:
Yes I am installing to a partition under 8GBs (7.4 to be exact). Partitioned with Drive Setup under OS 9.
Yes I am positive it has a DVD drive, I installed it myself and tested it with a movie.
Yes I checked all the jumpers on both the HDD and ODD. Both are Master on their respective controllers.
Xpostfacto is configured properly - this shouldn't have anything to do with the Jaguar problem, though.

My goal is a dualboot of Tiger, and OS 9. I was only installing Jag to see if it made a difference to upgrade to Tiger instead, that's when I found out Jaguar wouldn't work either.
I appreciate all the help I can get with this, I'm stumped!

 

[DearthnVader]

I've seen something similar with older old world machines, where the drives were just not completely compatible with Open Firmware booting.

Xpostfacto copies some files from the CD/DVD to the HD and boots from the HD then redirects to the root file system on the CD/DVD for install.

What is going on here is Open Firmware can't boot from you HD.

Either your 8GB partition isn't the first partition on your HD, or the partition table is wonky. Some people had luck with the 2nd issue partitioning the HD with Intech Hard Disc Speed Tools, while other times it was necessary to completely replace the HD with one that is compatible.

As a work-a-round that maybe worth trying, boot the Jag CD and use disc utility from the Install CD to repartition you HD and see if that fixes the issue.

 

[bunnspecial]

Out of curiosity, are you trying to boot/install Jag via Xpostfacto, or are you doing it just via the normal installer? I'd leave Xpostfacto out of the equation at least for now.

Also, for the time being I'd take the 7000 out of the equation and run via onboard graphics. I don't SEE it causing a problem(I've run many beiges on a 7000, but it's worth taking card incompatiblities out).

 

[Slix]

I read recently about early iMac G3s needing a firmware update before being able to boot OS X. Does the Beige tower need one maybe?

 

[DearthnVader]

I read recently about early iMac G3s needing a firmware update before being able to boot OS X. Does the Beige tower need one maybe?

I the beige G3's were an odd beast, that had a 4MB socketed Old World ROM, there were 3 revisions each getting it's own ROM.

So the only way to update the firmware is to find a revision 2/3 ROM card.

 

[LightBulbFun]

the cant Open message in open firmware means its been told

"Hey load this file from this location and boot from it"

but open firmware cant find it, hence the repeated "cant open"

OpenFirmware is being told to Boot from somewhere/something it cant either find or read properly

things I do

first on your HDD make a 7.9GB partition at the start of it, lable this one OSX or something, then the rest of the drive can be an OS 9 partition,

because remember the G3 beige can only see the first 8GB of an ATA drive in OpenFirmware, and if your OS X partition/boot loader is outside that 8GB space it wont be able to find it

also what condition is your PRAM battery in? might be worth trying with a fresh one, or trying without any PRAM battery at all

another thing id try, once Jag is installed to your HDD, reset your PRAM, so it boots directly into 9.2.2 then in 9.2.2 check the startup disk, make sure OS X shows up there and then select it as the start up disk.

 

[Raging Dufus]

I the beige G3's were an odd beast, that had a 4MB socketed Old World ROM, there were 3 revisions each getting it's own ROM.

So the only way to update the firmware is to find a revision 2/3 ROM card.

News to me! The more I learn about Old World ROM Macs, the weirder they get. This would explain why I couldn't find a firmware update for OP's model, after an extensive search (because I was going to suggest just that).

Thing is, I was under the impression that ALL OS X-capable Macs that shipped pre-OS X required a firmware update to run it.

The more you know...

 

[Nermal]

Out of curiosity, are you trying to boot/install Jag via Xpostfacto, or are you doing it just via the normal installer? I'd leave Xpostfacto out of the equation at least for now.

Conversely, when I had a beige I needed to use XPostFacto to get the Jaguar installer to run. Once I got that far I could wipe the hard drive and do a clean install, but I simply couldn't get the thing to boot from the Jag CD without XPF.

I got rid of that machine ~15 years ago, but it's amazing what you remember

Of course, this is all a bit moot if it's the hard drive booting that's failing...

 

[Project Alice]

I've seen something similar with older old world machines, where the drives were just not completely compatible with Open Firmware booting.

Xpostfacto copies some files from the CD/DVD to the HD and boots from the HD then redirects to the root file system on the CD/DVD for install.

What is going on here is Open Firmware can't boot from you HD.

Either your 8GB partition isn't the first partition on your HD, or the partition table is wonky. Some people had luck with the 2nd issue partitioning the HD with Intech Hard Disc Speed Tools, while other times it was necessary to completely replace the HD with one that is compatible.

As a work-a-round that maybe worth trying, boot the Jag CD and use disc utility from the Install CD to repartition you HD and see if that fixes the issue.

I did try two different drives, but both are similar WD drives. One 40GB, the other an 80GB. I have a plethora od IDE drives, I can try to find another one. Would it help to use an IDE PCI card? I have one in an extra sawtooth I'm not using.

Out of curiosity, are you trying to boot/install Jag via Xpostfacto, or are you doing it just via the normal installer? I'd leave Xpostfacto out of the equation at least for now.

Also, for the time being I'd take the 7000 out of the equation and run via onboard graphics. I don't SEE it causing a problem(I've run many beiges on a 7000, but it's worth taking card incompatiblities out).

I have tried both ways, with and without XPF for jaguar.
I cannot use the onboard video, I have no way of using it. I have nothing that will plug into a DB15.
I've also partitioned both ways. First time was with DU on the Jaguar CD, then again with Mac OS 9.

the cant Open message in open firmware means its been told

"Hey load this file from this location and boot from it"

but open firmware cant find it, hence the repeated "cant open"

OpenFirmware is being told to Boot from somewhere/something it cant either find or read properly

things I do

first on your HDD make a 7.9GB partition at the start of it, lable this one OSX or something, then the rest of the drive can be an OS 9 partition,

because remember the G3 beige can only see the first 8GB of an ATA drive in OpenFirmware, and if your OS X partition/boot loader is outside that 8GB space it wont be able to find it

also what condition is your PRAM battery in? might be worth trying with a fresh one, or trying without any PRAM battery at all

another thing id try, once Jag is installed to your HDD, reset your PRAM, so it boots directly into 9.2.2 then in 9.2.2 check the startup disk, make sure OS X shows up there and then select it as the start up disk.

The PRAM battery is "okay". The original one was dead, I pulled another one out of a sawtooth that I wasn't sure if it worked or not, but it seems to have held the date and time every time I unplug it to swap drives around, so far so good on that.
The partition is for sure at the start of the drive. I am going to find another drive to use that isn't a WD and test that, or as I said above I have access to an IDE PCI card, I have no idea how old world macs handle those but it works good in my new-world macs.

 

[DearthnVader]

The R7000 and some PCI IDE cards have trouble too in Beige G3's. Something to do with the Code ROM's conflicting or Open Firmware running out of RAM to execute the FCode of both cards.

If I recall correct it may have been the Sonnet Tempo series of ATA cards.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I did try two different drives, but both are similar WD drives. One 40GB, the other an 80GB. I have a plethora od IDE drives, I can try to find another one. Would it help to use an IDE PCI card? I have one in an extra sawtooth I'm not using.

I have tried both ways, with and without XPF for jaguar.
I cannot use the onboard video, I have no way of using it. I have nothing that will plug into a DB15.
I've also partitioned both ways. First time was with DU on the Jaguar CD, then again with Mac OS 9.

The PRAM battery is "okay". The original one was dead, I pulled another one out of a sawtooth that I wasn't sure if it worked or not, but it seems to have held the date and time every time I unplug it to swap drives around, so far so good on that.
The partition is for sure at the start of the drive. I am going to find another drive to use that isn't a WD and test that, or as I said above I have access to an IDE PCI card, I have no idea how old world macs handle those but it works good in my new-world macs.

post a picture of your partition setup in disk utility I want to verify with my own eyes that its good if you dont mind
(mind I imagine if you got it wrong, 10.2 would not let you install as its installer checks its within 8GB)

it may help to try an IDE card, which one do you have? I find the ACARD cards work the best with old world macs

also id try things, but with NO PRAM battery installed.

 

[Project Alice]

The R7000 and some PCI IDE cards have trouble too in Beige G3's. Something to do with the Code ROM's conflicting or Open Firmware running out of RAM to execute the FCode of both cards.

If I recall correct it may have been the Sonnet Tempo series of ATA cards.

I do have a Rage 128 from a BW G3, that works in the beige. I can use it for testing. The Rage 128 is not powerful enough for my use of this machine, though. I am using it for retro gaming.

post a picture of your partition setup in disk utility I want to verify with my own eyes that its good if you dont mind
(mind I imagine if you got it wrong, 10.2 would not let you install as its installer checks its within 8GB)

it may help to try an IDE card, which one do you have? I find the ACARD cards work the best with old world macs

also id try things, but with NO PRAM battery installed.

I am certain it is correct, but I will follow up with a picture when I get home from work. I think it actually is an ACARD, but I'm not positive. I think it's a flashed model but it works in the sawtooth it's installed in. I know it boots OS X, I haven't tried booting 9 off it yet.

I thought these things were notorious for freaking out if there was no PRAM\bad PRAM? But I know you have the best experience with these (I'm aware of your 9600 G4 leopard running beast), I'll give it a shot.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I do have a Rage 128 from a BW G3, that works in the beige. I can use it for testing. The Rage 128 is not powerful enough for my use of this machine, though. I am using it for retro gaming.

I am certain it is correct, but I will follow up with a picture when I get home from work. I think it actually is an ACARD, but I'm not positive. I think it's a flashed model but it works in the sawtooth it's installed in. I know it boots OS X, I haven't tried booting 9 off it yet.

I thought these things were notorious for freaking out if there was no PRAM\bad PRAM? But I know you have the best experience with these (I'm aware of your 9600 G4 leopard running beast), I'll give it a shot.

I hope its an ACARD, they work very well from my experience, working with all sorts of weird and whacky configurations I throw at them and it will remove the 8GB boot limit too

Macs can get unhappy, if the PRAM battery voltage is low, as that can corrupt things, but they are generally fine with no PRAM battery at all

(my first G3 Beige, had no PRAM battery, and I had no ADB keyboard/mouse at the time, as you can imagine I had some fun times when installing OS X/OS 9 on that thing )

(at first I had just 10.2.8 on it, and when I had to unplug it and it forgot how to boot into OS X, I would unplug the HDD and plug the ODD into its channel and then have the 10.2 CD boot and set the NVRAM properly then soft power down, and un plug the ODD from the HDD channel and plug the HDD back in so it would now boot from OS X again LOL)

 

[Project Alice]

I hope its an ACARD, they work very well from my experience, working with all sorts of weird and whacky configurations I throw at them and it will remove the 8GB boot limit too

Macs can get unhappy, if the PRAM battery voltage is low, as that can corrupt things, but they are generally fine with no PRAM battery at all

(my first G3 Beige, had no PRAM battery, and I had no ADB keyboard/mouse at the time, as you can imagine I had some fun times when installing OS X/OS 9 on that thing )

(at first I had just 10.2.8 on it, and when I had to unplug it and it forgot how to boot into OS X, I would unplug the HDD and plug the ODD into its channel and then have the 10.2 CD boot and set the NVRAM properly then soft power down, and un plug the ODD from the HDD channel and plug the HDD back in so it would now boot from OS X again LOL)

That sounds like an absolute nightmare lol.
Here is a picture of Jag's DU on the install CD. I apologize about the lines, I'm using a Studio Display CRT on this thing. Under 8GB at the beginning of the disk.

Though I think I may try again using the ATA card. I actually have 2. The aforementioned one I just figured out is a Sonnet Tempo ATA133. The other is in my B&W, and I'm thinking that might be the ACARD one. I'd prefer not to open the B&W if I can help it.. It's location on a shelf requires me to move an entire desk out of the way, the tower is too tall to be pulled from anywhere but the side. Will the Sonnet card work in this Beige?

 

[LightBulbFun]

yep partitions look good to me, you can try the Sonnet card, it SHOULD work in theory

but out of curiosity, what happens if you, install OS X to that 8GB partition, then you get back to the "cant open" right?

what if you then reset the PRAM, pop in the OS X CD hold C so it boots from it, then when it starts booting, soft power down, (ie by holding the power switch down)

then plug the HDD into the ODD channel does it then boot OS X off the HDD?

edit: I see 2 HDDs in disk utility. is this on another mac or do you genuinely have 2 HDDs installed in your G3 beige? I would remove all other HDDs while installing OS X, and make sure the HDD your installing OS X onto is set to master

 

[Project Alice]

yep partitions look good to me, you can try the Sonnet card, it SHOULD work in theory

but out of curiosity, what happens if you, install OS X to that 8GB partition, then you get back to the "cant open" right?

what if you then reset the PRAM, pop in the OS X CD hold C so it boots from it, then when it starts booting, soft power down, (ie by holding the power switch down)

then plug the HDD into the ODD channel does it then boot OS X off the HDD?

Correct, installing OS X to the 8GB partition results in the "can't open" error.

I can try that, Jaguar is still installed on the drive I was using the first time. I assume that has something to do with why when booting the CD, the computer restarts after the happy mac, then proceeds to boot the OS X CD?

 

[LightBulbFun]

Correct, installing OS X to the 8GB partition results in the "can't open" error.

I can try that, Jaguar is still installed on the drive I was using the first time. I assume that has something to do with why when booting the CD, the computer restarts after the happy mac, then proceeds to boot the OS X CD?

exactly the OS X installer is setting the NVRAM to boot OS X directly from the CD, which in my experience also works for booting OS X off the HDD too if ya plug the HDD into where the ODD was plugged into

 

[Project Alice]

Good news!
I just installed the Sonnet IDE card, attached the drive that I had previously started installing Jaguar to. I turned on the Mac, it booted to the OLD installation of OS 9 that was on the aforementioned drive. I opened start up disk and selected Jaguar and sure enough it booted! I'm installed the 10.2.8 combo update as we speak.

So now that I know the card works, I should shoot for Tiger. I'll probably leave the 80GB OS 9 drive on the built in IDE bus, because this case wasn't really designed for another IDE card and it was hard enough getting the one disk plugged into it...
So theoretically, I should be able to just erase the OS X drive and partition it using a single 40GB partition since the ATA133 card has no annoying limitations.

None of this however solves the problem of getting the tiger installation media to boot.. I was never successful in getting it to boot at all. Only the Jaguar CD. I'm thinking if I set Xpostfacto to use the ATA card hard drive as a "helper" so it loads the files from that. Beyond that I am out of ideas.

 

[Project Alice]

Success! It worked. What I did was set XPF to boot the tiger install DVD by using the drive connected to the ATA133 card as a "helper". It booted the DVD, I formatted the drive with a single partition and installed. It booted up without issue. I updated to 10.4.11 as well with no issues.
I'm actually posting this from the beige!

Also, what is "Gossamer" that shows up under System Profiler? I assume it's a code name for this mac?

 

[LightBulbFun]

very cool stuff happy to see you were able to get it working in the end

the Gossamer thing, is the G3 Beiges Open Firmware name, while on NWR macs this was meant to be a user visiblething, it was not really meant to be a user visible thing on OWR Macs, hence why its its something "weird", indeed Gossamer is a code name

(specifically its AAPL,Gossamer however system profiler automatically lops off the APPL,)

 

[Jordan XP]

This G3 just refuses to boot OS X. It's a 300Mhz "Mini tower". 384MB of ram, and an ATI Radeon 7000 32MB GPU. According to LEM I have a REV 2 logicboard.
Mac OS 9.2.2 installs and boots just fine. What happens is when selecting the OS X install disc in Xpostfacto, it gives me this "can't OPEN" over and over again and eventually reboots.
I am trying to install Tiger. Now, this also happens with Jaguar which is officially supported on this machine. It can boot the Jaguar install disc, but once installed booting to the internal HDD with Jaguar gives me the exact same output, forcing me to boot back into OS 9.
View attachment 842212
I have been at this for about three days. The only thing on google I can find about this is to "Make sure the hard drive jumper is set to Master". Trust me, it is. So is the optical drive.
I've tried different hard drives, removing the ZIP drive completely, I even put in a DVD drive to try a regular Tiger DVD. Same story. It just doesn't work.

To answer all of the basic questions so none of you have to ask:
Yes I am installing to a partition under 8GBs (7.4 to be exact). Partitioned with Drive Setup under OS 9.
Yes I am positive it has a DVD drive, I installed it myself and tested it with a movie.
Yes I checked all the jumpers on both the HDD and ODD. Both are Master on their respective controllers.
Xpostfacto is configured properly - this shouldn't have anything to do with the Jaguar problem, though.

My goal is a dualboot of Tiger, and OS 9. I was only installing Jag to see if it made a difference to upgrade to Tiger instead, that's when I found out Jaguar wouldn't work either.
I appreciate all the help I can get with this, I'm stumped!

Early G3s with Revision A ROMs (and by the way this is an Old World ROM) don't support slave drives on their IDE controllers, these ones have the Rage II+ video card. Ones with Revision B and C ROMs support slave drives on their IDE controllers, with these ones having the Rage Pro (B) or Rage Pro Turbo (C) ROMs.

So, what is your video card?

 

[z970]

So, what is your video card?

It's a 300Mhz "Mini tower". 384MB of ram, and an ATI Radeon 7000 32MB GPU.

 

[Project Alice]

This G3 just refuses to boot OS X. It's a 300Mhz "Mini tower". 384MB of ram, and an ATI Radeon 7000 32MB GPU. According to LEM I have a REV 2 logicboard.

Early G3s with Revision A ROMs (and by the way this is an Old World ROM) don't support slave drives on their IDE controllers, these ones have the Rage II+ video card. Ones with Revision B and C ROMs support slave drives on their IDE controllers, with these ones having the Rage Pro (B) or Rage Pro Turbo (C) ROMs.

So, what is your video card?

 

[Jordan XP]

OK.

 

[bunnspecial]

Early G3s with Revision A ROMs (and by the way this is an Old World ROM) don't support slave drives on their IDE controllers, these ones have the Rage II+ video card. Ones with Revision B and C ROMs support slave drives on their IDE controllers, with these ones having the Rage Pro (B) or Rage Pro Turbo (C) ROMs.

I've never had any luck getting a slave drive to work on the main(HDD) ATT bus of one regardless of the revision.

This is why bootable ATA cards are very, very valuable. They get around all the quirks of the built-in controller, including requiring OS X to be on the first partition that is no larger than 8gb in size, and the 128gb drive size cap.