All my laptops can run Linux like forever, but M series MacBook or iMac is like max 6 years lifespan even you buy from day one. Not worth it?
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Cannot really natively install Linux or Windows with M series chip, MacBook or iMac is truly dead once no more update?
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it currently has 7 years support (5 full + 2 additional years somewhat restricted), but yes, things are not optimal yet.
there is Asahi Linux that is running natively on Apple Silicon though, but i think it is still work in progress and they still need to figure out how to fully utilize Apple's hardware.
the next Linux Kernel is supposedly making it's first baby-steps into Apple Silicon support too, so hopefully by that time they will have it figured out.
i have my fingers crossed too for my 2020 MBA, which's support should have fully ended by 2027
there is Asahi Linux that is running natively on Apple Silicon though, but i think it is still work in progress and they still need to figure out how to fully utilize Apple's hardware.
the next Linux Kernel is supposedly making it's first baby-steps into Apple Silicon support too, so hopefully by that time they will have it figured out.
i have my fingers crossed too for my 2020 MBA, which's support should have fully ended by 2027
Good thinking. At the moment, Apple's M platform is more or less a dead end when it comes to instaling/loading other operating systems onto it.
So yeah, only macOS will work on them, up to the point until Apple supports it with security updates. After that, well... It won't magically stop from working, but you won't be advised to surf the web, etc.
You are an optimist, you presume Apple silicon hardware will last that long
(in case it’s not clear, the above is a joke)
By the time Apple stops providing security updates for M1 computers, my guess is that you will be able to run Linux on them, either natively or very well virtually.
You could keep macOS for offline use and a virtual machine with Linux for online use.
This video seems to indicate that you can install Ubuntu on a M2 Mac natively. I'll be the first to admit I don't follow Linux/ARM based macs. I thought that apple prevents any non-apple OS from being installed on the main drive, but this video seems to say otherwise
Here's an older article about the ability to install Linux on a Mac
You Can Now Install Linux On An M1 Mac, But You Probably Shouldn't
I’am aware of Asahi and its derivatives, it’s making good progress.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/linux-which-distro.2300710/post-31267273
OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux https://asahilinux.org/2023/06/opengl-3-1-on-asahi-linux/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/linux-which-distro.2300710/post-31267273
OpenGL 3.1 on Asahi Linux https://asahilinux.org/2023/06/opengl-3-1-on-asahi-linux/
Asahi Linux in Wiki: The project has been made challenging by the lack of publicly available documentation of Apple's proprietary firmware.
I think Apple makes sure Linux and Windows cannot truly run natively in M series forever.
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they don't make it easy, but i don't think that it's impossible to achieve.
ARM and the PowerVR technologies (or whatever the latter might be called nowadays) should be pretty well documented, the rest should not be that hard to figure out - and Asahi is already working fine, though not benefitting too much, if at all, from hardware accelerations. at least that's what i've last read about it about 6 months (maybe more) ago.
so simply don't buy a Mac if you could not live with an "unsopported" system after 7 years and you don't think that native Linux will happen.
i'm also still using Windows 7 on an old laptop btw and nothing horrible has happened as of yet either.
i won't pretend that it's the smartest move, but it proves you can still be alright on an unsupported system. and an outdated Windows should be a lot more vulnerable as it's still a way more lucrative target. i don't do online banking on it though.
ARM and the PowerVR technologies (or whatever the latter might be called nowadays) should be pretty well documented, the rest should not be that hard to figure out - and Asahi is already working fine, though not benefitting too much, if at all, from hardware accelerations. at least that's what i've last read about it about 6 months (maybe more) ago.
so simply don't buy a Mac if you could not live with an "unsopported" system after 7 years and you don't think that native Linux will happen.
i'm also still using Windows 7 on an old laptop btw and nothing horrible has happened as of yet either.
i won't pretend that it's the smartest move, but it proves you can still be alright on an unsupported system. and an outdated Windows should be a lot more vulnerable as it's still a way more lucrative target. i don't do online banking on it though.
I honestly think the new 15” MacBook is a good deal comparing to how big screen MacBook Pro was the only expensive choice if you didn’t like the smaller screen of non pro, but just 7 years or I believe it will be more like 5 years (they cut support period) makes me feel I would not go for it.
It isn't like the Mac is unusable once it no longer gets updates.
Almost all the daily used Macs in my home do not get updates anymore.
My Mac Pro 1,1 hasn't got an (official) update in over 10 years, but still runs great on MacOS.
Almost all the daily used Macs in my home do not get updates anymore.
My Mac Pro 1,1 hasn't got an (official) update in over 10 years, but still runs great on MacOS.
I was under the impression that Apple has actually fixed some firmware bugs reported by the Asahi team. I believe this is why Asahi requires MacOS 12.3 or later: firmware fixes come along with it.
In my experience it's the third-party software that tends to be the problem, rather than the OS itself. I'd wager that most apps that "require" a given OS version don't actually make use of the new APIs.
Apparently a decent chunk of modern Windows apps (with the notable exception of games) still run under Windows 2000 or XP if you trick/override the version check. The APIs haven't changed too much in the past couple of decades (obviously MacOS is a bit different since OS 9 was still current when Win 2000 was released). The gradual move to 64-bit is changing things, but I still find the whole concept fascinating.
If you feel comfortable to use an outdated browser or other softwares with serious security problem that cannot be updated anymore, yes it is ok.
I understand the point of Apple is gonna end OS support after 7 years, keep in mind, you will likely get an additional 2 years of security updates on top of that. My early 2015 Broadwell MacBook Pro is still getting security updates for Big Sur and its officially eligible for Monterrey. That means I will still have a supported MacBook Pro although vintage in 2025. So, I see M1 Macs potentially getting updates at the end of the decade.
At the end of the day, Apple is a business with commitments to its shareholders. A big part of which involves getting users to upgrade to newer revisions. If you don't agree with that, then I would rather purchase a x86 or ARM based device, which is more open and allows for upgrades and longer support. Apple is sticking to its philosophy where Macs are known as appliances; and its for that grand mother face timing grand kids; or that girl in college who just wants to finish writing her thesis in Google Docs and iMessage with her friends. When and if the device breaks, they go to the Apple Store, get it replaced or buy a new one, sign in with their Apple ID and everything just shows up.
At the end of the day, Apple is a business with commitments to its shareholders. A big part of which involves getting users to upgrade to newer revisions. If you don't agree with that, then I would rather purchase a x86 or ARM based device, which is more open and allows for upgrades and longer support. Apple is sticking to its philosophy where Macs are known as appliances; and its for that grand mother face timing grand kids; or that girl in college who just wants to finish writing her thesis in Google Docs and iMessage with her friends. When and if the device breaks, they go to the Apple Store, get it replaced or buy a new one, sign in with their Apple ID and everything just shows up.
That's very interesting. You would believe Apple has total control, but more eyes spot more. Or did Apple know about the bugs, but didn't care until Asahi spotted them?
Third-party browsers, such as Firefox, tends to continue getting security updates many years after Apple no longer updates Safari. Not that browsers are the only security venerability, but usually the major one.
Besides, the thread title states "is truly dead", which implies that the Mac is unusable once it no longer gets updates, which isn't true.
Yeah, the older OS is usually solid, and often runs better on older machines.
I usually don't update the OS to a new version unless there is a new feature that I have to have (rarely happens) or when an app no longer supports the older OS (usually what ends up happening).
It almost is always WoW that gets me to upgrade to a newer MacOS.
Probably right.
I don't know a lot about APIs that much, but earlier this year when WoW broke for almost all Mac users after a routine maintenance update, IIRC, Blizz was blaming some new MacOS API changes, and this was issues on all MacOS versions except the latest one.
Or maybe it was something else.
The more that a person is invested in the Apple ecosystem, the less likely it is that they'll be able to use their Mac OS-based device past the support date.
Not really, at least for me.
Of course there are going to be some new things on newer MacOS that one might be missing out on if they have an older MacOS version, but the impact on the overall Apple ecosystem is minimal, imo.
While I have modern Macs as well (M1 and M2 Pro MMs), if I only kept my next older Macs, Late 2013 iMacs which are both on Mojave, it wouldn't impact any of my other Apple devices in meaningful (at least to me) ways.
But, more to the point of the thread, the above shouldn't matter since the OP's suggestion that Macs would be "dead" since it can't boot into Linux or Windows natively after Apple stops sending updates to it.
Not true.
A Mac will continue to function just fine even though it no longer receives operating system updates.
I just booted up a Power Macintosh 9600 that hasn't seen an update in 22 years (because I wanted to see what was on a floppy) and it worked just as it did when it last went into storage.
Sure, services will be cut off as time marches on, and in the case of MacOS 9.1 the lack of encryption support means most of the modern web is inaccessible, but I could still edit code in BBEdit or write a letter in ClarisWorks and print it on the StyleWriter if I wanted to.
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They are not making sure they just don’t care would be my guess. And there is no enough public pressure to make them aware
It does seem increasingly more likely that Apple will only support direct booting of macOS on Apple Silicon Macs and that any effort to natively boot any other OS will have to come from the kind of reverse engineering that the Asahi Linux project is working on.
That having been said, if your main reason for buying a Mac is that it's also a Windows PC and therefore also a Linux machine and that you're not necessarily locked to macOS's support for the machine to run currently supported operating systems, you will probably be disappointed with an Apple Silicon Mac (depending on how long Apple ends up supporting given Apple Silicon Macs).
Then again, Apple has not enabled vTPM in firmware on T2 Intel Macs nor released the appropriate drivers, which is really all that keeps Windows 11 from being supported on Intel Macs and unless you have access to an Enterprise LTSC version, Windows 10 only has until October of 2025 to be supported. All that to say that if you are relying on third party OS support to extend the life of your Mac, that party seems to have ended (at least on the Apple Silicon side of this transition; even Microsoft won't support 8th, 9th, and 10th Generation Intel processors forever).
Apple didn't engineer their firmware to lock out Windows or Linux. I won't sit here and act like they're probably not happy about that being a side-effect. But that's likely not how it shook out.
Apple developed iBoot for all of its other OSes (iOS, iPadOS, bridgeOS, watchOS, tvOS, etc.) and other hardware platforms. It's as custom as their silicon is, which is to say, pretty freakin' custom. Furthermore, even Apple Silicon versions of macOS (like all of the other OSes I've mentioned) are cryptographically signed and won't run if tampered with. So, piggybacking another OS off that bootloader probably isn't something that can easily happen. So, you're basically left with having to engineer a bootloader from scratch using a firmware the details of which are probably somewhere secure at Apple and only accessible as-needed because it's Apple.
Could Apple and Microsoft partner to enable a revival of Boot Camp for Apple Silicon? I maintain it's possible. But I'm not thinking it's likely and, at this point, it would almost defeat much of the speed/performance gains of Apple Silicon to begin with (given that it's a system architecture that is optimized first and foremost for macOS, unlike Intel/AMD/x86/x86-64, PowerPC, and other ARM derivitives which are designed to run multiple other OSes (and therefore aren't specifically optimized for any of them).
For someone who cares and pays attention to the Apple ecosystem, yes.
I know several people who are way deep into the Apple ecosystem and don't care about whether their Apple products can run the latest releases and are usually several versions behind despite that being an obviously bad practice (at least when connected to the Internet). They only care about whether or not the things they do can still work. Hell, most non-techie Apple folk that I know have update fatigue about new annual Apple releases. I can't say I blame 'em.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what I'm referring to when I say, "Apple ecosystem". I'm not referring to only the hardware. Software, services, and media content are all part of the ecosystem.
Those people WILL care when they can't access certain things within the Apple ecosystem because their device doesn't run a new enough version of Mac OS to be able to install the software that is needed.
This is how Apple squeezes people to upgrade their hardware when the hardware is otherwise still adequate for the person's needs.
I knew what you meant the first time.
And my comment still stands. Apple will let you be on a WAY older OS than is still supported before they cut off access to paid media content, and to older iCloud iterations. Hell, they are only just now ending support for "My Photo Stream", which, at worst, only affects people running early versions of OS X Yosemite and iOS 8 at the latest. Mind you, OS X Yosemite and iOS 8, even on their final versions, dates back to eight years ago and is well longer than those operating systems have not had security updates since.
I never keep my Computers, PC or Mac for longer than 5 years. I like a fast and responsive system. Also with M1 architecture you can't upgrade anything. GPU, CPU, RAM, and SSD are all on the SOC. So you can't speed anything up after a few years to breath life into your system. BUT since everything is unified it should in theory last longer with what it has out the gate if you have decent specs like at least 16gb ram and at least 512gb ssd. In my opinion I think that Apple will support m series chips way longer than previous Macs officially. They may give major updates for at least 7 years and security for 10. I mean Chromebooks get something like 9 years now from release date so I don't think it is crazy to think Apple would not increase the length of official software support.
I get that they want to get people to upgrade BUT they can use the length of support as a major incentive to buy a Mac. Plus now that they produce the entire hardware stack and M series are all similar architecture it should not be hard for them to update the entire series. Intel was a major reason why Apple could only support Mac's as log as they did because Intel machines after say 4 generations were majorly slower than the latest gen. 14nm Intel was an anomaly as generally Intel had a tick, tock upgrade path until they got stuck on 14nm for several generations.
Apple silicon just like iPhone a series gets better and better each year but you can use an old iPhone and not hate the experience. M1 Macs are still extremely capable 3 and half years later. I don't see them coming to a crawl in the next 3-5 years. If Apple made it so when you buy a Mac you were good for a decade it would bring it in parity with Windows which offers 10 years of support for Windows 10. Of course a lot of Windows 10 PC can upgrade to Windows 11 and go even longer but I bet the ones that got a PC in 2015 probably can't upgrade to Windows 11. So lets just say that you get at least 10 years on a Windows machine and now Mac's could do the same thing.
In terms of updates I just helped a guy upgrade his Windows 7 PC to Windows 11 PC and I have known a lot of Mac users who used their Mac's long after support ended and did everything they have always done without any problems other than a slow device.
With the advance of SSDS, faster ram and faster CPU computers like cell phones are lasting longer before they feel to slow to use anymore. This is an industry wide issue. I think Apple will incentivize people to buy a new Mac by adding new features and overall improvement in terms of battery life and GPU performance. Until we have photon based computers the advances on silicon are at a bit of a plateau. Obviously they will still improve but it is not like going from 28nm to 14nm or from Intel x86 to Arm and from 14nm to 5nm. These are big gains that we are unlikely to see going forward.
In terms of using Linux on a Mac, why would you want to do something like that-ever? Like just buy a cheap Windows PC and put Linux on it but a Mac is a Mac because of MacOS. Trying to extend the life of a Mac using Linux in my opinion is a fools errand. No disrespect to anyone who does it but it just seems like much more trouble than it is worth. If it is a hobby type thing and just to try then I get it but to use as a daily driver I would just get a new Mac Mini or MBA and call it a day. Lol
I get that they want to get people to upgrade BUT they can use the length of support as a major incentive to buy a Mac. Plus now that they produce the entire hardware stack and M series are all similar architecture it should not be hard for them to update the entire series. Intel was a major reason why Apple could only support Mac's as log as they did because Intel machines after say 4 generations were majorly slower than the latest gen. 14nm Intel was an anomaly as generally Intel had a tick, tock upgrade path until they got stuck on 14nm for several generations.
Apple silicon just like iPhone a series gets better and better each year but you can use an old iPhone and not hate the experience. M1 Macs are still extremely capable 3 and half years later. I don't see them coming to a crawl in the next 3-5 years. If Apple made it so when you buy a Mac you were good for a decade it would bring it in parity with Windows which offers 10 years of support for Windows 10. Of course a lot of Windows 10 PC can upgrade to Windows 11 and go even longer but I bet the ones that got a PC in 2015 probably can't upgrade to Windows 11. So lets just say that you get at least 10 years on a Windows machine and now Mac's could do the same thing.
In terms of updates I just helped a guy upgrade his Windows 7 PC to Windows 11 PC and I have known a lot of Mac users who used their Mac's long after support ended and did everything they have always done without any problems other than a slow device.
With the advance of SSDS, faster ram and faster CPU computers like cell phones are lasting longer before they feel to slow to use anymore. This is an industry wide issue. I think Apple will incentivize people to buy a new Mac by adding new features and overall improvement in terms of battery life and GPU performance. Until we have photon based computers the advances on silicon are at a bit of a plateau. Obviously they will still improve but it is not like going from 28nm to 14nm or from Intel x86 to Arm and from 14nm to 5nm. These are big gains that we are unlikely to see going forward.
In terms of using Linux on a Mac, why would you want to do something like that-ever? Like just buy a cheap Windows PC and put Linux on it but a Mac is a Mac because of MacOS. Trying to extend the life of a Mac using Linux in my opinion is a fools errand. No disrespect to anyone who does it but it just seems like much more trouble than it is worth. If it is a hobby type thing and just to try then I get it but to use as a daily driver I would just get a new Mac Mini or MBA and call it a day. Lol
Buying a new pc laptop with new 15” MacBook monitor size, resolution, thickness, would cost around the same anyway. If M series allows native Linux would be a good choice for using it like 14 years instead of 7 years. Computer is so fast nowadays that I don’t see why buy a new one every 7 years or 5 years except you are into top tier gaming or video editing that kind of professional work.