Canon HV20 HDV Camcorder

[Multimedia]

Bulletin: HV20's Are Shipping. Some Owners Have Theirs Already. This just started happening Monday March 19.

OK. I admit it. You've pushed me to it. There's enough action about this camcorder going on over at the wildly popular Sony HDR-HC7 thread I started last month, to start one for it's logical contender for best of class camcorder for 2007. Although the Canon HV20 was promised to go on sale in April, it's shipping NOW so release the hounds and start the debate, speculate, opinionate and prognosticate about Canon's formidable challenger.

My $1,138 ProVantage® HC7 arrives later today. So I'll be preoccupied over there short term. But I'll do my best to fill in some of the info you'll want here soon enough. For starters check out Canon's numerous HV20 web pages which are far more extensive than what Sony puts up for the HC7. And don't forget to download the HV20 Instruction Manual. Sorry to report the HV20 brochure doesn't appear to be ready yet.

Only 3.5 weeks til the NAB Apple Event April 15. HV20's are now shipping from B&H among other resellers.. Very exciting times for all things Digital Video. Let the 2007 HDV games begin! Sorry I forgot to put up a Poll with this one.

 

[EricTheRed71]

Several posters over at dvinfo are reporting that B&H is already shipping the HV20.

Not for me in PAL-land though....

 

[Multimedia]

Link To DVInfo.net Thread Exclaiming B&H Is Shipping First HV20's Now

Several posters over at dvinfo are reporting that B&H is already shipping the HV20.

Thanks Eric. I added the link to that thread over there to your quote for everyone to more easily check it out. Reading the thread started about 8PM Monday night Pacific time, they are now in owners hands. So the promise of April is now history as they shipped before Winter's end. Owners have them in New York City and in Hollywood. San Francisco receives one later today March 21st the first full day of this momentous historical Spring of 2007 when all will radically change in 90 days. Whoot!

Raw 24p-in-60i footage is being posted already.

 

[zioxide]

I want one badly but I can't afford it

 

[Crazysah]

Can someone direct me to other Canon HV20 threads?

 

[TheAnswer]

The only one I can think of off-hand is this one.

 

[solvs]

I'm pretty happy with my new GL2. Er, what little I can figure out. Not exactly easy to use. I suppose I could read the instructions, but I've just been playing with it for now. Don't have to do much yet. I was thinking about getting an HV20 as a backup and to learn HD, it's much better than the HV10 IMO. Mic input (same connection as on my GL2, so I can use the same mic I already own) and 24p (if it is actually true 24p) are what do it.

Waiting for the review at Camcorderinfo.com, the last review was pretty sparse but that was before it started shipping.

 

[twoodcc]

seems like a nice camera. does it connect via firewire to your computer?

also, how much is the camera?

 

[Multimedia]

Communicates With Macs Via FireWire for $1,099

seems like a nice camera. does it connect via firewire to your computer? How much is the camera?

Yes. $1,099. No LANC port makes it not usable with a tripod handle zoom controller or an underwater housing.

 

[Crazysah]

So... does this camcorder seriously do 1080p? Or only 1080i?

 

[gauchogolfer]

So... does this camcorder seriously do 1080p? Or only 1080i?

My understanding is that you can get 1080 vertical lines in both 60i and 24p modes. If this is wrong I'm sure Multimedia will set me straight.

 

[Multimedia]

1080 Horizontal Lines Are I @ 60fps and P @ 24fps

My understanding is that you can get 1080 vertical lines in both 60i and 24p modes. If this is wrong I'm sure Multimedia will set me straight.

I'm pretty sure they're Horizontal lines last time I looked. Oh I see. The 1080P is when you're shooting @ 24fps. Well that's a big DUH to me.

OK What I want to learn is how do you extract the 24P from the 60i it's recorded in? Some kind of 3:2 Pulldown extraction trick I don't understand yet. Anyone here know that technique in and out of FCP 5.1UB?

 

[gauchogolfer]

I'm pretty sure they're Horizontal lines last time I looked. Oh I see.

See, I knew you'd come through. 1920x1080 does indeed correspond to 1080 horizontal lines...doh. I was thinking that the image was 1080 pixels 'tall', and had a brain problem.

As for 24p extraction from 60i, I have no idea how they're doing that.

 

[spicyapple]

As for 24p extraction from 60i, I have no idea how they're doing that.

60i is recorded in 24P advanced pulldown mode in this sequence.
AA BB BC CC DD
Notice you can ^ discard the BC frame and still keep the other frames intact (ie. no recompression necessary)

Regular 24P pulldown is in this sequence.
AA BB BC CD DD

This is actually easier to understand than something exotic like crystalline characterization and atomic force microscopy.

 

[gauchogolfer]

This is actually easier to understand than something exotic like crystalline characterization and atomic force microscopy.

Have you been spying on me at work?

 

[Multimedia]

Anatomy Of The 24P Mystery Or How We Can Solve Translation

60i is recorded in 24P advanced pulldown mode in this sequence.
AA BB BC CC DD
Notice you can ^ discard the BC frame and still keep the other frames intact (ie. no recompression necessary)

Regular 24P pulldown is in this sequence.
AA BB BC CD DD

This is actually easier to understand than something exotic like crystalline characterization and atomic force microscopy.

I'm so glad you're here to help us out. I get it. those are each an interlaced frame and when the overlapping frames like BC are tossed out you have 4P frames left. So this sequence is repeated 5 more times a second and when you pull out the other 5 overlaps you have 48 interlaced lines/24P frames that are made up of 24 identical pairs of 48i lines. So what's the process of making those 24 interlaced but identically paired frames down to 24P frames? Are progressive frames just pairs of identical interlaced frames anyway? That's probably the bonehead question of the day.

I want to learn how to remove those middle mismatched BC frames and make 24 pairs of identical interlaced frames into just plain 24P frames. I know you know how to do this. I can tell you're a super genius not to mention a video professional. So please continue Spicy. How do we import the HV20's stream into FCP 5.1.0.4UB and get rid of those nasty 6 mismatched frames?

 

[filman408]

I want to learn how to remove those middle mismatched BC frames and make 24 pairs of identical interlaced frames into just plain 24P frames. I know you know how to do this. I can tell you're a super genius not to mention a video professional. So please continue Spicy. How do we import the HV20's stream into FCP 5.1.0.4UB and get rid of those nasty 6 mismatched frames?

Just choose HDV 1080p24 from the easy set-up menu under FCP 5.1.2 or later. This info is also in the FCP Late Breaking News pdf.

 

[Crazysah]

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Camcorder-Review.htm

The review is up!

 

[Multimedia]

They Like It Better Than The HC7 With A "Draft Zoom Rocker" And No LANC Port?

The CamcorderInfo.com Canon HV20 Camcorder Review is up!

Thanks for tracking that Crazy. I can't believe they like it better than the HC7 without a LANC port. I guess the concept they are working on is that remote zoom is not an essential feature in camcorders today. Try to run a super slow zoom with the zoom rocker on the camera. They even write "... the zoom rocker feels like a first draft that somehow made it into production."

The camcorder’s physical handling is just mediocre, and most people will find the top-end cams from Sony, Panasonic, and JVC rest more comfortably in their hand. Some basic controls are awkwardly placed, and the zoom rocker feels like a first draft that somehow made it into production. The HV20’s manual control suite is also far from the most robust, or independently adjustable on the market. Unlike Canon, the aforementioned manufacturers offer independent iris and shutter speed control on their HD cams, and Panasonic adds gain control to the mix.

Does that read like it's better than the HC7?

Oh well. I'll be getting one anyway to use as a DECK for my HC7 when tehy reach $799 street in a couple of months. So I could go out and try some things with the same Raynox .5 Wide and 2.2 Telephoto lenses I got for the HC7. And the lens size is the same 37mm. I use a VariZoom VZ Pro-L Remote Lens Controller about 90% of the time on a tripod handle. So I guess I'm a dying breed of videographers who think remote zoom control is essential.

Moreover you are prohibited from using the HV20 underwater except if you set the focus on infinity, leave the lens wide, start it up, and put it into an underwater housing that you can then point at stuff without being able to zoom at anything that would swim away if you got closer. And you would not be able to stop and start the recording while you are down there so your time underwater is limited to the recording length of the tape. I really don't get it.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Thanks for tracking that Crazy. I can't believe they like it better than the HC7 without a LANC port.

Somehow I don't think very many consumers use remote zoom controllers or take their cameras underwater so the LANC port wouldn't exactly be an "in-demand" item for a camera aimed at that demographic.

So I guess I'm a dying breed of videographers who think remote zoom control is essential.

Look at cameras targeted at people who make money shooting and I don't think you'll find a lack of remote zoom capable units.

Does that read like it's better than the HC7?

No, but this part of the review does:

The HC7 adds independent shutter speed and iris control, and a multi-function Cam Control dial. But the Cam Control dial is a mixed bag, and it’s easy to get lost in the jungles of the deep and wide touch screen menu. The HC7 features xvYCC color, but it is not yet supported and is another example of Sony tacking their name to an idea that will not help you on your next shoot.

Navigating the HV20’s menu via the rear-mounted joystick by contrast is as smooth as freshly churned butter. In addition, the HV20 has an accessory shoe that doesn’t require brand-specific compatibility – unless you want your accessories hot, that is – but we’ll take a Sanken CS-1 over Sony’s hot mic any day. You also get an onboard video light (but no commando-style NightShot) and MiniSD card slot as opposed to a Sony-proprietary Memory Stick Pro Duo. More to the point, the HV20 doesn’t offer up quite the level of control that Sony does, but it gives you what you need to get the shot, from Focus Assist to 3 lux low light performance in 24p. The choice should be clearer than a Windexed crystal. The HV20 may be stripped down, but it’s fast as hell, corners on a dime, and sets you back $200 less.
.
.
.
Sony seems to have missed the forest for the trees by equipping the HC7 with great handling - and a terrific feature set that’s a pain in the neck to actually use.

(emphasis mine)

As a Mac user MM you should fully appreciate the value of well designed UI.


Lethal

 

[zioxide]

I'll be getting one anyway to use as a DECK for my HC7 when they reach $799 street in a couple of months.

Do you really have to capitalize 'deck' in every post just to rub it in that you're buying a $1000 camera to use just for capturing footage to your computer so you don't wear out your other camera?

 

[LethalWolfe]

Do you really have to capitalize 'deck' in every post just to rub it in that you're buying a $1000 camera to use just for capturing footage to your computer so you don't wear out your other camera?

He's just trying to downplay the fact that he wants an HV20 too because the HC7 isn't all he wants/needs in a camera.

If he really just wanted a 2nd camera to capture from he'd buy a late model HDV camera for significantly less than a brand new HV20.



Lethal

 

[zioxide]

He's just trying to downplay the fact that he wants an HV20 too because the HC7 isn't all he wants/needs in a camera.

If he really just wanted a 2nd camera to capture from he'd buy a late model HDV camera for significantly less than a brand new HV20.



Lethal

Yeah I know, I was just messing around.

 

[Multimedia]

HV20 Is The Only Option For A Deck For Me

He's just trying to downplay the fact that he wants an HV20 too because the HC7 isn't all he wants/needs in a camera.

If he really just wanted a 2nd camera to capture from he'd buy a late model HDV camera for significantly less than a brand new HV20.

Not exactly. My thoughts are that I want another HDV camera that is NEW not used and that has HDMI out. I also don't want a bottom feeder nor one that can't run in manual audio gain mode in case I want to use it as a B-Roll camera in a multi-cam shoot. And I don't see the point of paying more for another HC7. So the only camcorder I know that fits those minimum specifications that is not the HC7 is the HV20. Right?

I confess to a certain amount of curiosity though. And the ability to pre-set zoom speed on the Canon may allow one to exercise a super-slow zoom without external LANC assist. So in the case of planned shots, it may not be as bad as I first imagined without the zoom. I only just noticed it has zoom speed options in the menu — a feature Sony HC7 doesn't have and one that may ameliorate the missing LANC port somewhat.

 

[nickweston]

I'm ready to buy, any caveats?

I've been waiting for an affordable 24p camcorder for awhile now. I understand that Sony's new camera doesn't have a "true" 24p mode, but a kind of companded "cinema" mode.
For those of you who haven't used 24p, I've done stuff with a Panasonic ADX100 (I think that's the model), and it looks ABSOLUTELY STUNNING.
I'm hoping the Canon delivers that same look.

Has anybody seen 24p footage from the Canon that has worked with the bigger 24p cameras before?

I can get a used Panasonic for the same price, but it is a much bigger camera and if the Canon looks anywhere near as good, the smaller size is what I really need.

thanks for the great thread!

NW