Canon HV20 HDV Camcorder

[Multimedia]

Define "ABSOLUTELY STUNNING" Please

I've been waiting for an affordable 24p camcorder for awhile now. I understand that Sony's new camera doesn't have a "true" 24p mode, but a kind of companded "cinema" mode.
For those of you who haven't used 24p, I've done stuff with a Panasonic ADX100 (I think that's the model), and it looks ABSOLUTELY STUNNING.
I'm hoping the Canon delivers that same look.

Has anybody seen 24p footage from the Canon that has worked with the bigger 24p cameras before?

I can get a used Panasonic for the same price, but it is a much bigger camera and if the Canon looks anywhere near as good, the smaller size is what I really need.

thanks for the great thread!

I'm waiting for the price to fall to at least $899 before I pull the trigger. Would you please elaborate on what you mean by the term "ABSOLUTELY STUNNING"? Those two words don't really explain what you are trying to communicate. We get you think it's the only way to go. But why? Exactly how does it look and why does that look better than 1080i/60?

 

[nickweston]

"Absolutely Stunning" definition

What do I mean by "absolutely stunning?" I do music for films as a composer. I work with many directors, most who work in film, big budget stuff. But I do smaller films from time to time, and you can always see the drop off to video.
I did a film a couple of years back that looked like film and was shocked when I found out it was shot in video. Mind you the director is a very talented guy.
Last week I was on the set with Rob Reiner. When I walked up to say hi, I looked at the monitor and immediately said "what a picture!" The producer immediately replied "isn't it beautiful!" It just had a feel to it. So I asked if it was 24p, which Rob was a little shocked that a musician knew what 24p was. Yes, the producer replied, it was 24p, using a Panasonic pro camera.
So when I said "absolutely stunning," that is what I meant. Here were seasoned pros all commenting on this picture quality. It's that different looking.
As far as 1080/60 or whatever, I have no experience. All I know is what I saw, how it made me feel, and that I want it. I shoot videos for some of the artists I work with and want them to look this good!
Thanks for a great thread, your hard work here is really appreciated!

thanks
NW

 

[Multimedia]

You've Sold Me Nick

What do I mean by "absolutely stunning?" I do music for films as a composer. I work with many directors, most who work in film, big budget stuff. But I do smaller films from time to time, and you can always see the drop off to video. I did a film a couple of years back that looked like film and was shocked when I found out it was shot in video. Mind you the director is a very talented guy.

Last week I was on the set with Rob Reiner. When I walked up to say hi, I looked at the monitor and immediately said "what a picture!" The producer immediately replied "isn't it beautiful!" It just had a feel to it. So I asked if it was 24p, which Rob was a little shocked that a musician knew what 24p was. Yes, the producer replied, it was 24p, using a Panasonic pro camera.
So when I said "absolutely stunning," that is what I meant. Here were seasoned pros all commenting on this picture quality. It's that different looking.

As far as 1080/60 or whatever, I have no experience. All I know is what I saw, how it made me feel, and that I want it. I shoot videos for some of the artists I work with and want them to look this good!

Thanks for a great thread, your hard work here is really appreciated! NW

Thank YOU. Without posts like this, the thread would be nothing. This is the kind of rare post that really puts insight into a point that is bandided about without full explanation. OK I gotta get one of these HV20's now. I want to compare it to the Sony HC7 personally. And I need 3 HDMI out HDV cameras anyway to create an Intensity/On-Air luggable mobile HD recording system based on top of the line manual controlable consumer camcorders. I'm sticking with HDV until CamcorderInfo.com can convince me AVCHD is better — which I doubt will ever happen until the change the "standard" to a higher maximum bit rate (currently tops out at 24Mbps).

I confess to never having seen 24p video. I hear all about how much better it is blah blah blah. But this is the first time I've ever read someone explain the emotional feelings they had in a situaiton with seasoned film professionals that really makes the point how different 24p must really be.

Can we get any feedback from early HV20 owners here about how it looks and if any have edited anything in FCP 5.1.2 yet and have successfully exported the edit back out the HV20 in that weird 24p in 1080i schism?

60i is recorded in 24P advanced pulldown mode in this sequence.
AA BB BC CC DD
Notice you can ^ discard the BC frame and still keep the other frames intact (ie. no recompression necessary)

Regular 24P pulldown is in this sequence.
AA BB BC CD DD

This is actually easier to understand than something exotic like crystalline characterization and atomic force microscopy.

SpicyApple's excellent explanation on Post #14 of how 24p is recorded in 1080i/60 was extremely helpful to me for getting a better idea how it's recorded. But I'm still confused as to how the 24p post edit gets laid back to HDV tape as real 24p on 1080i/60 HDV or does it not?

i.e. What is the medium on which we archive a 24p edited video that came from 1080i/60 on cameras like the HV20? Film? Is it only film we can go to archive edited 24p products? Or is going back to 24p on 1080i/60 perfectly OK? I mean will that work from our edit back out to the HV20?

 

[LethalWolfe]

Thank YOU. Without posts like this, the thread would be nothing. This is the kind of rare post that really puts insight into a point that is bandided about without full explanation. OK I gotta get one of these HV20's now. I want to compare it to the Sony HC7 personally. And I need 3 HDMI out HDV cameras anyway to create an Intensity/On-Air luggable mobile HD recording system based on top of the line manual controlable consumer camcorders. I'm sticking with HDV until CamcorderInfo.com can convince me AVCHD is better — which I doubt will ever happen until the change the "standard" to a higher maximum bit rate (currently tops out at 24Mbps).

AVC-Intra is AVCHD's big brother and will probably be what we see in pro and prosumer cameras instead of AVCHD. Panasonic recently announced a camera that shoots AVC-Intra, Link.

I confess to never having seen 24p video. I hear all about how much better it is blah blah blah. But this is the first time I've ever read someone explain the emotional feelings they had in a situaiton with seasoned film professionals that really makes the point how different 24p must really be.

24p video is only better if you are going after a "filmic" look. If you are shooting a short film then you'd probably want to use 24p, but if you were shooting a football game you'd want to use a higher framerate. A kind of rule of thumb is if you want a "reality" look shoot 30 or 60, and if you want a more "filmic/unreal" shoot 24p. But shooting 24p is only one ingredient to trying to emulate the look of a feature film that many people are going for.

But I'm still confused as to how the 24p post edit gets laid back to HDV tape as real 24p on 1080i/60 HDV or does it not?

i.e. What is the medium on which we archive a 24p edited video that came from 1080i/60 on cameras like the HV20? Film? Is it only film we can go to archive edited 24p products? Or is going back to 24p on 1080i/60 perfectly OK? I mean will that work from our edit back out to the HV20?

A big, big point here is to make sure everyone recognizes the difference between shooting 24p normal (aka 24pn) and 24p advanced (aka 24pa). If you shoot 24pn the cadence is like the 2nd example in Spicy’s post and you just treat the footage like normal interlaced video. If you shoot 24pa, edit in a 23.98 sequence and now you want to deliver a tape copy for your client you’ll want convert it to into normal interlaced video (like the frame cadence in Spicy’s first example) so it plays back properly (the 24pa stuff on tape will look jerky on playback because of the frame cadence used). If you shoot 24pa, edit in a 23.98 sequence and you want to make an archive copy of your final video for yourself, I assume there is a way to record a back to tape using the 24pa cadence. Unless you are planning on only delivering to DVD or getting it xfered to film there’s no reason, AFAIK, to shoot in 24pa instead of 24pn.

I don’t have any first hand experience working w/24pa footage so I could be off base a little bit, but I’m pretty sure I’m at least in the ballpark though. But if someone wants to pinch hit and can knock it outta the park feel free to step up to the plate (okay, that’s enough baseball metaphors).

Of course this mini-ramble might be moot because I don't even know if the HV20 has a 24pa mode.


Lethal

 

[DarkDTSHD]

Can someone direct me to other Canon HV20 threads?

Go to Listvideo.com (http://www.listvideo.com/forums/index.php). They have a comprehensive groups of forums for all the major brands and include downloadable sample clips taken by users. Not professionals hired by manufacturers. Giving us a better idea of what the cameras will do in the real world.

Also go to www.camcorderinfo.com for the best review of the Canon HV20. Or the best one I've found thus far. Seems to be the best site for camcorder test reports. If there are better ones please share guys!

Hope that helps! I just might be getting one myself. But I'd like to wait for the test report on the JVC Everio GZ-HD7 (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/digital-...corder-with-3-ccds-due-next-month-242314.php). It's THE talk of the consumer HD camcorder market. Though it is $500.00 more than the HV20.

Love to see a comparison done. Canon's HV20 vs. JVC's HD7.

Hope this helps!

 

[Crazysah]

@DarkDTSHD: Thanks alot for that mate.