Canonians & Nikonians unite!

Grimace

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Original poster
Feb 17, 2003
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I created this topic b/c we frequently see "which is better" threads. Not too far after, the various players dig in their heels and occasionally get nasty. My take on this behaviour is that we don't often know enough about the two platforms.

Here, that changes. This forum topic is for educating each other about various lenses, bodies, lighting, etc.

Ground rules: no fighting, no biting!! Start your own thread if you want to do that.
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Original poster
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Primes

Here are the Canon primes from short to long. The long primes are great, but I'm surprised that Canon doesn't offer a 400mm f/4 IS. What does Nikon have to offer for primes?

14mm f/2.8L
15mm f/2.8 fisheye
20mm f/2.8
24mm f/1.4L
24mm f/2.8
28mm f/1.8
28mm f/2.8
35mm f/1.4L
35mm f/2

50mm f/1.2L
50mm f/1.4
50mm f/1.8
85mm f/1.2
85mm f/1.8
100mm f/2
135mm f/2L
135mm f/2.8 (softfocus)
200mm f/2.8L

300mm f/4L IS
300mm f/2.8L IS
400mm f/2.8L IS
400mm f/4L DO IS
400mm f/5.6L
400mm f/5.6L IS
500mm f/4L IS
600mm f/4L IS

Macro:
50mm f/2.5
Life-size Converter lens
60mm f/2.8
65mm f/2.8 1-5x
100mm f/2.8
180mm f/3.5L
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
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San Jose, CA
carletonmusic said:
What does Nikon have to offer for primes?
Nikon's auto-focus primes:

Wide-Angle Lenses
14mm f/2.8D ED AF Nikkor
16mm f/2.8D AF Fisheye-Nikkor
18mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
20mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
24mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
28mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
35mm f/2D AF Nikkor

Standard & Telephoto Lenses
50mm f/1.4D AF Nikkor
50mm f/1.8D AF Nikkor
85mm f/1.4D AF Nikkor
85mm f/1.8D AF Nikkor
105mm f/2D AF DC-Nikkor
135mm f/2D AF DC-Nikkor
180mm f/2.8D ED-IF AF Nikkor

Super Telephoto Lenses
200mm f/2G ED-IF AF-S VR Nikkor
300mm f/4D ED-IF AF-S Nikkor
300mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S VR Nikkor
400mm f/2.8D ED-IF AF-S II Nikkor
500mm f/4D ED-IF AF-S II Nikkor
600mm f/4D ED-IF AF-S II Nikkor

Closeup (Macro) Lenses
105mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S VR Micro-Nikkor
60mm f/2.8D AF Micro-Nikkor
200mm f/4D ED-IF AF Micro-Nikkor


Nikon's manual-focus primes:

24mm f/2 Nikkor AI-S
28mm f/2 Nikkor AI-S
35mm f/1.4 Nikkor AI-S
45mm f/2.8P Nikkor AI-S
50mm f/1.2 Nikkor AI-S
85mm f/2.8 PC Micro-Nikkor
135mm f/2.8 Nikkor AI-S
200mm f/4 Micro-Nikkor IF AI-S

The 50mm f/1.2 AI-S. At least "we" have it and it's only $579 at B&H.
 

Kingsly

macrumors 68040
I like Nikon for film, but am exclusively Canon for digital. Why? Because I've had excellent luck with Canon and been told (cannot confirm this) by many-a prominent photographer and uni. photo teachers that Canon basically invented digital photography, thier Digic II is superior and when they advertise a certain megapixel # that is exactly the amount that the CCD is sensing. Apparently (cannot confirm this either) most manufactures may plop in a 7MP CCD but use software to extrapolate the data up to, say, 9MP.
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,669
60
San Jose, CA
Nikon's LBCAST sensors (D2H/s) produce fantastic images with low noise, but they are stuck at only around 4 MP. Nikon took a lot of heat for its delay in bringing out the D200, but once they did, they captured a fair bit of mindshare. In comparison, Canonites were dismayed by the 30D, and it seemed they were starting to become vocal protesters. Now Canon has announced the Digic III and will soon (we think) be announcing new pro-level bodies to go with that chip. So the tide is turning again in Canon's favor. Meanwhile, Nikonians are waiting for a FF surprise. If Nikon delivers such a thing, particularly if it includes a really well designed CMOS sensor, we may be on equal or near-equal footing.

It's been a game of one-upmanship and it will continue. Everyone will benefit as a result.
 

beavo451

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2006
483
2
carletonmusic said:
very impressive lineup. Does Nikon differentiate between consumer and pro lenses? (Canon has its L series)
You can usually tell by the price and aperture. Pretty much any 2.8 or faster zoom or prime is a "pro" lens. Also, most of the "pro" lenses have a gold ring around the front of the lens (like Canon with their red ring to denote "L" series).

Another addition to the Nikon primes

10.5mm f/2.8G DX fisheye

Common current digital bodies

Consumer:
D50 - 2.5fps 6.1 MP CCD
D70 - 3fps 6.1 MP CCD (discontinued)
D70s - 3fps 6.1 MP CCD (improved D70)
D80 - 3fps 10.0 MP CCD (Not yet released, possible D70s replacement)
D200 - 5fps 10.0 MP CCD

Pro:
D2H - 8fps 4.1 MP LBCAST (discontinued)
D2Hs - 8fps 4.1 MP LBCAST (improved D2H)
D2X - 5fps 12.2 MP CMOS (discontinued)
D2Xs - 5fps 12.2 MP CMOS (improved D2X)
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Original poster
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Thanks Beavo -- here are the current Canon bodies:

Rebel XT: 8MP @3fps; 1.6x - $799 (discontinued)
Rebel XTi: 10MP @3fps; sensor-cleaning; 1.6x - $799
Canon 20D: 8.2MP @5fps; 1.6x - $1199 (discontinued)
Canon 30D: 8.2MP @5fps; 1.6x - $1299

5D: 12.8MP @ 3fps; 1.0x - $3299
1D: 8.2MP @ 8.5fps; 1.3x - $3999
1Ds: 16.7MP @ 4fps; 1.0x - $7999


I think Nikon has a stronger hold on the lower/middle market. The D80 and D200 are really great cameras for their price points.
 

liveexpo

macrumors member
Aug 19, 2006
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true...

Kingsly said:
Apparently (cannot confirm this either) most manufactures may plop in a 7MP CCD but use software to extrapolate the data up to, say, 9MP.
Yeah, Fuji did this with their Finepix range. My old S5000, had a 3MP sensor, but extrapolate to 6m, which was advertised.
 

macdaddy121

macrumors 6502a
Jan 8, 2003
758
31
Georgia
IMHO....Nikon has the better entry level digital camera with the D50 and soon to be D80....however, Canon has not answered the D80 yet....and when they do....it could be amazing. Canon's pro line digital cameras are amzing.
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
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macdaddy121 said:
IMHO....Nikon has the better entry level digital camera with the D50 and soon to be D80....however, Canon has not answered the D80 yet....and when they do....it could be amazing. Canon's pro line digital cameras are amzing.
Yeah, the Rebel XTi could be a real entry level contender but it's kinda dinky compared to the D50 and D80; Nikon wins hands down in my opinion. However, at the pro level, Canon takes no prisoners with the 1Ds.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
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carletonmusic said:
5D: 12.8MP @ 3fps; 1.0x - $3299
The 5D can only shoot at 3fps?

carletonmusic said:
Yeah, the Rebel XTi could be a real entry level contender but it's kinda dinky compared to the D50 and D80; Nikon wins hands down in my opinion. However, at the pro level, Canon takes no prisoners with the 1Ds.
How do you know it's kinda dinky compared to the D50 and D80 if it's not even out yet? I agree that it's still way too small, but if they upped the build quality (and I'm sure Canon did since most people agreed on this, and Canon isn't stupid), it won't be as horrid as before.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
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No way, the 350D isn't horrid. I meant the build quality is really not to be desired. You know I think this since I've always recommended getting a 20D as a starting point with Canon.

My friend who got his 350D when I got my D50 recently used my D50 for a day and told me that his camera felt like a cheap toy compared to my D50. The strange thing was that he didn't notice this before, but after using his camera for the past 8 months, and then using my camera for the 1st time since we got our cameras, he really did take notice. This feeling was reinforced when I had to shoot with his camera during 2 concerts over the past 2 months. The photos were fantastic with his 50 mm f/1.4, but the feel of the camera, buttons, etc, wasn't great. Also, his camera seems much more worn out than mine despite the fact that we've both had our cameras for the same amount of time.

But the photos from the 350D are excellent when the right photographer (ie: people like you) is holding it. ;)
 

pdxflint

macrumors 68020
Aug 25, 2006
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I have to agree on the 'build quality' issue with Canons vs. Nikons at the consumer level. I've had an EOS 630 and an EOS A2 35mm bodies for a fairly good run in the photojournalism world, and have sampled several others from the Elan series (35mm) to various flavors of digital Rebels. The only one that didn't suffer from the 'crunchies' was the EOS 630, the most solidly built one of the lot. Every Nikon I tried just felt more solid, and now that I have my first DSLR, a D50, the same applies. I'd have to get up to the Canon 20D level to match the 'feel' of finish and balance of Nikon's entry level DSLR camera. I really wanted, still do, the 20D, or even moreso, the 5D, but just can't spare the money. I got my D50 with kit lens for $489 reconditioned with 5 year extended warranty for $60 extra. Figured I'd take a shot. I'm not disappointed with the build quality of the body (the lens is another matter... but not unlike Canon's 'kit' lens as well..) So, build quality is great. But, control placement, etc., eyepoint information and all the other things aren't nearly as natural to me. Could just be all the years using Canon, but I think Canon's got the 'driver's' setup all figured out for 'on-the-fly' decision making. I fumble around more, and some things just seem backward. But I realize anyone switching from Nikon to Canon might just have the exact same issues... I'm sure I'll get more intuitive with this D50 after awhile.

Ergonomically, I still love, and prefer... the way the EOS system cameras handle, especially the A2 with vertical grip attached. The bigger mount when they went autofocus did away with any mechanical linkage between body and lens, unlike Nikon until much later. All my lenses back in '94 were Ultrasonic, so autofocus was a strong Canon advantage back then (I had a friend who wore out the little lens focus actuating cam on his N90, which also rounded out the slot on his Nikkor 85mm f1.8 prime lense. Then, you could hear it stripping out and slipping... yikes! Pretty expensive problem. Yet, my D50 still has that mechanical cam, and some aftermarket lenses for Nikon mount still use that.)

By the way, adding the vertical grip to the A2 made the camera feel much more solid, and it wound up being a very reliable workhorse, more rugged than it first appeared. A fast handling camera (A2, 5 fps) that I could run through various settings on the fly with ease, and could reload in less than 5 seconds. I liked that I could set it up to leave the film leader exposed after rewind, so I could write a note on the back of it, and fold/crease to tell me it had been shot, and maybe even shoot half a roll, and then rewind, load some different film, and later go back and use the rest of the half shot roll. Oh yeah, the days of processing my own b/w and getting my color processed uncut for about a buck and a half. Light table editing with high quality loupe, and scanning... a whole different world from images on CF or SD cards. To think, I used to put a great deal of thought into which film I'd be using for different situations, and manners of processing for pushing, etc were all things that made it fun, and a bit more 'technical' than shooting digital. In the end, there is a huge part of the experience of photography which is being abandoned with pure digital, a part I really enjoyed, which separated the serious photographers from snapshooters.

Anyway - back on topic. Nikon and Canon, two great companies with a great rivalry over the years. I have great respect for both of them. And Pentax, Fujinon and Olympus, of which I had mechanical SLRs from each (screw-mount Spotmatic, Fujinon ST-801, and Olympus OM-1.)
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
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Abstract said:
The 5D can only shoot at 3fps?



How do you know it's kinda dinky compared to the D50 and D80 if it's not even out yet? I agree that it's still way too small, but if they upped the build quality (and I'm sure Canon did since most people agreed on this, and Canon isn't stupid), it won't be as horrid as before.
Yep, only 5fps. :rolleyes:

I owned a Rebel and never thought that the build quality was substandard when I was using it. I never picked up a Nikon in that timeframe or any other Canon. 8 months later, I ran into a little extra camera cash, and decided (being a real princess) that I wanted the large 30D screen. Same quality photos, slightly faster frame rate, but for most of my purposes -- not a necessary upgrade.

It felt quite different: much heavier, larger, and slightly different materials. (Bigger and heavier can frequently make people think "pro".) My long winded point is that I loved my Rebel XT immensely and never had any issue with the build quality. For selfish/stupid reasons, I upgraded to a 30D and said, "huh, this body feels a little more solid." Maybe if I get my hands on a 1D I'll think that the 30D's build quality is subpar.

It's all based on your perspective and need.
 

beavo451

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2006
483
2
pdxflint said:
... I liked that I could set it up to leave the film leader exposed after rewind, so I could write a note on the back of it, and fold/crease to tell me it had been shot, and maybe even shoot half a roll, and then rewind, load some different film, and later go back and use the rest of the half shot roll. Oh yeah, the days of processing my own b/w and getting my color processed uncut for about a buck and a half. Light table editing with high quality loupe, and scanning... a whole different world from images on CF or SD cards. To think, I used to put a great deal of thought into which film I'd be using for different situations, and manners of processing for pushing, etc were all things that made it fun, and a bit more 'technical' than shooting digital. In the end, there is a huge part of the experience of photography which is being abandoned with pure digital, a part I really enjoyed, which separated the serious photographers from snapshooters.
...
I would disagree with you here. Digital is just as, if not more, technical as film. With film, when you decide what film to use, you are choosing from a pool of films with specific characteristics. With digital, you are essentially "making" your own film when you are processing based on your decisions of saturation, color, ISO, white balance, etc. To get an even more solid grasp, you would look into specifics of how light behaves or how specific colors come together as opposed to "Velvia does this and Portra does that etc." Shooting half a roll, rewinding, and going back was a HUGE pain for me. I hated it and usually lost about a frame because I could never rewind it back to it's precise previous point. Digital photography is not any easier than film. It just requires a different understanding of the process than film.

Using your snapshooter/serious analogy.
Snapshooter digital: uses iPhoto or some other basic photo management software to view photos
Serious digital: Established workflow of backup, imports, file conversion, photoshop editing specific details of each photo, and archiving.
 

theenigmat

macrumors member
May 10, 2006
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0
We forgot to mention the monster lense that Canon has...

1200mm f/5.6L

I think it weighs upwards of 45 lbs.
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Feb 17, 2003
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theenigmat said:
We forgot to mention the monster lense that Canon has...

1200mm f/5.6L

I think it weighs upwards of 45 lbs.
Although discontinued in 2005, I think the list on that puppy was over $80,000! :D
 

theenigmat

macrumors member
May 10, 2006
54
0
ksz said:
^^^ Holy moly. Did they look through that and finally figure out that Pluto wasn't a planet?
:-(

My Very Excellent Mother Just Served Us Nine...???? My life is in shambles without Pluto...
 

snap58

macrumors 6502
Jan 29, 2006
310
0
somewhere in kansas
carletonmusic said:
very impressive lineup. Does Nikon differentiate between consumer and pro lenses? (Canon has its L series)
I believe the "ED" on the Nikon Lens would for the most part be the high end glass, it stands for "Extra-low Dispersion", which I think they use in lieu of Fluorite Glass Canon uses. You will note all their super telephoto's are ED.

The "AF" of course is auto-focus, but this is confusing to me, A Nikon friend of mine tried to explain once, (where is Chip when you need him) I may be wrong but I think this is correct,

AF - auto focus mechanically coupled to the camera
AF-I - motor built into the lens, but not the high end silent wave type
AF-S - these have motor built in but use the "silent wave" and allow full time manual over-ride (think Canon USM type)
DX - Made for the crop digital SLR's, like Canon EF-S
VR - vibration reduction
IF - internal front focus
RF - internal rear focus
G - these are newest lenses, no aperture rings, no manual cameras
ED - extra low dispersion glass

I'm sure the Nikon folks can add to / correct this.