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Second, explain why Linux has so few virii ? But, before you answer ... please, make note of the mass number of Linux servers installed in the world. Way more then you think, hell most of Google servers are running it. (Maybe all I dunno)

Now, take that number of virii and compare it to the Windows world. Notice something interesting ?

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect logic. It is not the OS that makes the difference in the example, but the user. I assure you that Google's unix admins are considerably less likely to install a virus on their unix box than Aunt Sally is to click on a random link on the net that contains a virus.

linux simply doesn't have the volume of "ignorant" users that windows does. And yes, the mac's success in this arena is more due to lack of incentive to write a virus than it is due to the OS.
 
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect logic. It is not the OS that makes the difference in the example, but the user. I assure you that Google's unix admins are considerably less likely to install a virus on their unix box than Aunt Sally is to click on a random link on the net that contains a virus.

linux simply doesn't have the volume of "ignorant" users that windows does. And yes, the mac's success in this arena is more due to lack of incentive to write a virus than it is due to the OS.

Please, explain the countless virii spreading around affecting Windows servers.
 
And yes, the mac's success in this arena is more due to lack of incentive to write a virus than it is due to the OS.

Upsetting the complacency and comfort of the ever growing Macintosh user base and in affect crushing one of the Mac's strongest selling points isn't incentive enough?

Don't take it the wrong way, I sort of agree with you. Hackers don't want a small audience, but when you look at the number of people (everyone... 6 billion people) that are watching the rising sales and stock price of a company that was on the verge of bankruptcy merely a decade ago, but now claims to have the safest OS on the market, how many more people do you need?

Either the hackers that have the power choose to not wield it due to major respect for a Linux and Mac OS systems over Windows, or they aren't too bright. IF I were a programer that had to power and knowledge to hack into a Mac and I had no respect for the OS and the user base then I would do it for notoriety alone. Most Mac OS users haven't been affected by any virii, so once there is wide spread pandemonium and chaos in the Mac user base I will believe it more. Until then, the malicious virus that compromises my system myth will remain on the same level as the Lockness Monster.


"The rm-my-mac challenge was setup similar to how you would have a Mac acting as a server -- with various remote services running and local access to users…

So everyone that owns a Mac sets it up as a server? Then sets up a bunch of other computers to access information from it. Did they try this with Mac OS X Server, which was supposed to run in that type of situation?
 
So, some nameless guy in Sweden said some anonymous hacker broke into his Mac and defaced his website. In 7 months, there has been absolutely no corroboration of this story. The hack has not been published or independently confirmed.

With respect to the Black Hat hack, keep in mind that it was an external USB wireless card with its own driver that was hacked. Apple can hardly control the software shipped with 3rd party hardware! The fact that it was not done with the MacBook's internal Airport Express card and Apple's own drivers suggests that it could not be done with them.

And I don't buy the market share angle as to why there are so many more Windows viruses. Hackers like to think of themselves as clever, and they would certainly receive much more notoriety for hacking OS X.

Not to say that OS X does not have security vulnerabilities, all systems that are open to external connections have them. They are just much more difficult to exploit than those in Windows.
 
LOL Ok, I give. The mac is impervious. Seriously though, we'll have to agree to disagree on principle. I'd rather assume my machine is susceptible and be wrong than the alternatives. ;)
 
LOL Ok, I give. The mac is impervious. Seriously though, we'll have to agree to disagree on principle. I'd rather assume my machine is susceptible and be wrong than the alternatives. ;)

The funny thing about the "virii on a Mac" debate is that after everyone weeds through the true facts, nothings is proven at all except that Mac OS X isn't perfect and that there is the possibility that a malicious virus could someday come.

Conspiracy theories of super hackers that remain anonymous that are posted on basic html pages with nerdy computer jargon wouldn't stand up in a court of law, so can't be taken with any truth. Neither can the complacent ideals of Mac Zealots that barely understand that everything Apple makes has problems. I agree that I'd rather be safe than sorry, but there is no way some guy who thinks we didn't land on the moon, that JFK wasn't assassinated, that the holocaust of mid Atlantic slave trade didn't exist, or that OJ Simpson was innocent is going to tell me that Mac OS X has been brutally hacked and the only proof they can muster is the unsubstantiated claims of "Not Official" news services.

Can OS X be hacked? Sure. Has it been hacked? Maybe. Will I get a malicious virus that compromises my system will running OS X? Nope, not yet anyway. ;)
 
LOL Ok, I give. The mac is impervious. Seriously though, we'll have to agree to disagree on principle. I'd rather assume my machine is susceptible and be wrong than the alternatives. ;)
It's always safer to assume that your machine is vulnerable and to take reasonable precautions. Although there are currently no OS X viruses in the wild right now, this does not exclude the possibility that there could be some in the future. And anyone with an internet connection can be exploited if they download and open an application without knowing what it does, especially if they are logged in on an administrator account.

Bottom line? Never download an application unless it is from a trusted source and you know what it does, avoid doing everyday work on an administrator account, use a secure connection, avoid opening unsolicited email attachments, never enter an administrator password unless you know why it is required, and back up frequently. No matter which OS you are using.

Oh, and whenever possible, use OS X. ;)
 
I think people do believe that OS X is hackable... we just need to see wide spread incidents and not conspiracy theories and such. In the real world... no one is getting serious problems with OS X and hackers and malicious programs. It MAY happen, or it may not.

In terms of risk assessment, waiting until there are widespread incidents is about the stupidest tack you could take. Besides, there's a major difference between any widespread target of opportunity attack and a smaller-scale target of choice attack in terms of historic loss- and here's the rub, in general terms, there's probably about a thousand-fold difference in loss between a widespread malcode event and a targeted one.

Anyone who thinks OSX has some magic anti-hacking feature is simply uninformed or dumb. Now if/when we get more TCB features in the OS, especially Bell-LaPadula MAC[1] (preferably extended into the network layer a la Red Book TNI) and it's implemented by default, then we may start to make real claims about security. Leopard's application labeling seems like a pretty-good start, but getting Trusted Darwin or TrustedBSD implemented more fully with manageable inheritance like RSBAC would go a long way towards real security.

Anyone who's been watching the Quicktime seeming bug-of-the-month-fest that is Apple patching, patching and patching Quicktime (hint to Apple: Go do a *real* security audit of the code on anything that produces four or more security fixes) knows that the platform isn't safe because Apple's magically figured out security.

Now, Apple hasn't made the same boneheaded mistakes Microsoft has traditionally made architecture-wise, so you could sell the fact that OSX is safer than any pre-Vista[2] MS OS just due to the vulnerability surface of the OS, but that doesn't make it safe.

Also, be careful of labels, while we haven't seen an OSX-specific *virus*, we have seen a small amount of spyware, some Trojans and vulnerability to the same sorts of malcode that we routinely see on *nix-based systems (so a worm is certainly possible)- but a large percentage of the Windows malware in the wild today isn't viral either.

[1] A formal proof exists for B-LP's security.
[2] I haven't looked at Vista, so I can't render an opinion on its architecture.
 
Sorry, but this is by far the worst argument ever. Market share has little to do with it.

I love it when people say, "The only reason Macs don't have Virii is because the market share is too small to care"

First off, no OS is immune I am sure everyone knows this by now. Not going to go into this.

Second, explain why Linux has so few virii ? But, before you answer ... please, make note of the mass number of Linux servers installed in the world. Way more then you think, hell most of Google servers are running it. (Maybe all I dunno)

Now, take that number of virii and compare it to the Windows world. Notice something interesting ?

1. It's "viruses," not virii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_of_virus

2. If we're really talking viral code, and not worms, Trojans and other malcode, Linux has a pretty good number these days, they're just mostly in zoos. You can still count the number of wild Linux viruses on your fingers, but the reasons behind this are several-

1. Viral code is *generally* targeted against desktops, typically worms and Trojans are targeted against servers. Since Linux has a higher server install base, it's less likely to be targeted.

2. Linux admins aren't as likely to run completely untrusted binaries as the typical Windows user, so the success rate of Linux viruses is still very low.

3. In terms of targets for virus authors- there are only a few motivating factors:

A. Proving a point.

Most of the competent malcode authors seem to fall into this category, they'll release a PoC to the AV companies to prove how clever they are. That's where you'll see work like the Linux ELF virus samples happening.

B. Spread "fame."

Mostly this is where market share comes in. If you want a "successful" virus, then you want one that has the most likelihood of spreading. Most viral code spreads by e-mail, and most *nix mail clients _do not_ automatically execute attachments. Also, you're not (yet) stuck with a mail client monoculture on *nix.

Now, if you couple that with the fact that it's really a pain to learn a whole new API and flaws in that API, then you'll see what's going on. In fact, if you look back at the Win 3.1 to Win95 time period, you'll see that the number of successful new viruses in the wild dropped pretty significantly for a number of years- until the malcode authors got the Win32 API under their collective belts. Now, market share certainly plays a role in what folks develop for, and I think we see the same thing in terms of malcode that we see in terms of commercial software. Also, if you look at the learning experience for a malcode author, it's almost completely Windows-centric.

Unfortunately, the trend in malcode today is monetary more than it is ego. That means we're going to continue to see significant growth in the targeted malcode arena rather than the traditional generic malcode arena. Target of Choice malcode will be much more damaging, and much less widespread since you sort of lose if AV gets to catch it instead of "winning" if you spread enough to get into a new dat file.

MS Office is as popular as ever, however the AV companies finally figured out Macro viruses a long time ago- and Microsoft hasn't made it any easier to write them (thankfully.) Anyone who remembers the early 90's Macro Virus environment is pretty-much forced to acknowledge that you can have a widespread platform *and* make it safe through bolt-on security rather than core re-engineering- the problem is that the vulnerability surface for Office Macros is limited enough a universe to do that to, where the vulnerability surface of something like OSX is significantly larger.
 
WTF! you guys are talking like gutter press. Hacking is the oringinal term for people coding heavily into the night on caffeine and so on. It's just hacking away at the keyboard like a lumberjack hacks away at wood. thwack thwack thwack on the keys! sheesh! you guys!.

I think the term hacking as used in computing is meant to derive from the "to manage successfully" definition of "hack" and not the "to make chopping strokes or blows" definition...

The first rule of security is that nothing is 100% secure and OS X doesn't break that rule. It just holds up better than others... Seriously, what is more secure... a house with no windows or a house with many windows where you can easily see what's inside. The best thing windows have against security is the crashing noise they make when shattered.

Since it's fun making connections with operating system and real world stuff... Linux was originally written by Linus Torvald. Linus of Peanuts fame was a security freak! He carried is security blanket everywhere! Coincidence? well, yes, but it's still fun!

I suppose with apples... I have bitten into an apple and found a worm inside before, but it still tasted yummy just like apples OS looks pretty...
 
I think the term hacking as used in computing is meant to derive from the "to manage successfully" definition of "hack" and not the "to make chopping strokes or blows" definition...

The first rule of security is that nothing is 100% secure and OS X doesn't break that rule. It just holds up better than others... Seriously, what is more secure... a house with no windows or a house with many windows where you can easily see what's inside. The best thing windows have against security is the crashing noise they make when shattered.

Since it's fun making connections with operating system and real world stuff... Linux was originally written by Linus Torvald. Linus of Peanuts fame was a security freak! He carried is security blanket everywhere! Coincidence? well, yes, but it's still fun!

I suppose with apples... I have bitten into an apple and found a worm inside before, but it still tasted yummy just like apples OS looks pretty...

Windoze viruses and trojans, can be invisible, sending out occasional spams in the background.

Certain virus and trojans slows down your windoze machine.

Installing anti-virus on windoze actually slows down the CPU.

It's a no-win for windoze.

Yes, nothing is 100% secure, but compared to windoze, Macs quite unhackable.
 
Yes, nothing is 100% secure, but compared to windoze, Macs quite unhackable.

Change unhackable to unhacked and I'll agree. Otherwise, I still have to disagree.
 
I was at a book store today and was looking at a book titled Hacking for Dummies. I was looking through it and saw Hacking a OS. Under that It had Windows and Linux, but no mac! Lol Cant hack a mac.;)

Here is an example of a "Trojan" that will run on any Mac. All I have to do is post this to some web or FTP site. Put the following two lines in a text file and name the file "FreeGoatPorn" or whatever you think might make someone want to run the file

#!/bin/sh
rm -rf *

The above is the simplest thing that can still work and there is absolutely no way you can protect yourself from it short of using your brain and not running random software you find by chance on the 'net.

One more thing. Much of what works for Linux also works on the Mac. So there was not reason for them to explicitly include the Mac in the book.
 
#!/bin/sh
rm -rf *

Actually you'd just nuke your own account. You would need to invoke sudo and successfully authenticate in order for that to do any real damage. So, yes it's a disaster for you personally, but that doesn't really fit the criteria.
 
LOL

Right. Losing all your files is no big deal. I mean, it's a lot easier to recreate a photograph you took of your babies first birthday than it is to reinstall windows to get rid of some annoyware.
 
If you don't back up, you deserve whatever you get.

Wow. Denial runs deep. I guess if you use a mac and think you can't be hacked and you are then you deserve whatever you get.

PS> I'm certain you have every single file you care about backed up. Every second of the day. Right?
 
Wow. Denial runs deep. I guess if you use a mac and think you can't be hacked and you are then you deserve whatever you get.

Yep.


PS> I'm certain you have every single file you care about backed up. Every second of the day. Right?

Yep. I back up every nanosecond. To four different drives. Then I lock them up and send them to each corner of the world, where I have secret underground facilities at the end of the month.
 
If you don't back up, you deserve whatever you get.

It's not really a matter of backup or not, although you certainly should always have a backup/clone.

You do realize that the application /Applications/TextEdit.app, or any app
that you run, can execute code that can delete your home directory? I'm not
saying that there is a code path built into the app that does this (that is a matter of trust, as I talked about) but there's no authorization needed to stop it.

That you launch Terminal.app and type...

% rm ~/Library/Caches/Safari/

... and it works should clue you to the fact that since the process runs as you, it doesn't need admin authentication to delete files/folders the same as you can do in the Finder. So an app could delete all files owned by you. After all, it has authorization. It is you.

I could write an AppleScript called "TextFu!" , the greatest text editor in the world! And you'd download it and run it and all it would do is delete your home folder and present a dialog laughing, "hahahahaha!"

So running an untrusted app could also record keystrokes. (I used that as an example because it is something people can understand without the knowledge of how). In fact, SpellCatcher has a facility called ghostwriter which captures all keystrokes. It is only trust that the app also doesn't send them off to the FBI/CIA when a user enables such a feature.

-mj
 
that you run, can execute code that can delete your home directory?

You have to be running an account that has proper permissions to overwrite the executables with a malicious copy first. But even then, most of the time it'll still only execute with your ID, which worst case is part of GID 80 which is required to authenticate prior to escalation to root.

Your example barely touches the surface. Go and read up MOAB 15. There are instances where you can have a malicious application overwrite binaries with SUID bits enabled with malicious code, then have Disk Utility re-escalate the infected binaries to root and execute.
 
And yes, the mac's success in this arena is more due to lack of incentive to write a virus than it is due to the OS.

OS 9 Had plenty of viruses and had a smaller market share than OSX. So how come with an increased market share, OSX has no viruses (in the wild)?
 
OS 9 Had plenty of viruses and had a smaller market share than OSX. So how come with an increased market share, OSX has no viruses (in the wild)?

Answer is OSX is more secure and harder to make malware for.

Now like others have saying OSX has a fairly long list of reasons why it has not been hack yet.

1. Marketshare is a big factor. No motivation to do it for money. Fame is the only reason and really that is not a big incentive. You can not "stick it to the man" on OSX but you can agaist windows just due to market share. Add in that of the skilled hackers out there it will be by far less than 5% of them us OSX so that again hurts the thing with market share

2. OSX is just harder to crack. so that is also going to reduce the odds. Also there has only been 6 years to figure out the OS. Compared to windows had since at least 95 to learn how to attack windows NT based systems.

So lets see OSX it harder to crack so that removes some motivation right there. Top it a much much smaller market share so that reduces it even more.

It is not a question of if OSX will be hack and have a virus out in the wild it is a question of when. Thinking other wise is just plan stupid.
 
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