MP 1,1-5,1 Carbon Copy Cloner - Unsupported for patched systems.

[lovely666]

Hey All,

Been using Carbon Copy Cloner for years, and had been a happy customer until I dealt with Rob in support. Must have bought 4 version of it over the past 5 years.

I've been trying to make a bootable clone of my MacPro5,1 BigSur 11.6 system, and for some reason the clones aren't bootable, I can make them bootable by using bless to create a new volume snapshot, but those clones will break straight after an update, and will need to be bless/snapshotted again to boot. After investigate the issues and not being able to find any information about what the underlying problem is, I reach out to Carbon Copy Cloner support, and was extremely disappointed with their response. This is informational for anybody else who is considering buying carbon copy cloner, especially if you run an apple unsupported system, like many of us do these days.

A "sorry we don't know how to solve that" or something to that affect would have been fine, but the corporate style we don't support your use case because it is a patched system is pretty offensive to the people who pay for your software, especially when that condition isn't any where on their website.

Their response:
macOS 11 Big Sur was last updated to version 11.6 is out of date, I would update to the current/last release of macOS 11 Big Sur (11.7.3) to see if that helps.

I am running a MacPro5,1 with opencore legacy patcher.

We cant really get into patched systems if APple does not support it.. there is not much we can add to that.

Best wishes

---
(As for the line about updating, what the hell do you think i was making a clone for, and why did i try to update that clone? because I was testing the 11.7.3 update, but don't feel 100% comfortable about doing it, if the backups aren't 100%).

My Original Support Request:
Hello,

I'm wondering if you can shed some lite on why my Big Sur 11.6 clone fails to boot. In the past i've it's worked flawlessly. However now when I make a clone it gets stuck with "rooting from the live fs of a sealed volume is not allowed on a release build" kernel error message on boot. Which I assume is something to do with it not using the seal snapshot when booting.

If i create a new snapshot, with "sudo bless --folder 850\ EVO/System/Library/CoreServices/ --bootefi --create-snapshot --verbose" it will boot, however after applying an update it get stuck again with the same rooting error, until I re-bless/snapshot it.

Ideally I would like for the clone to work without blessing/snapshotting after the clone. Just can't figure out what's wrong with my current running system that's causing the clone not to work, until it's bless/snapshoted (i assume it's snapshotting because ccc does the blessing)

I am running a MacPro5,1 with opencore legacy patcher.
I've attached my carbon copy cloner debug log.

Thankyou for your time.

 

[Bigwaff]

I assume you've read this KB article -

External Boot Troubleshooting - Bombich Software

bombich.com

 

[lovely666]

I assume you've read this KB article -

External Boot Troubleshooting - Bombich Software

bombich.com

Yep, gone though it but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[MisterAndrew]

I was having the same issue with my 7,1. I had to select the option to make the backup bootable, which completely erases the destination drive and attempts to make a bootable clone of the source. I think it has more to do with the complexity of the recent macOS releases rather than the hardware.

 

[mode11]

Yes, you need to use CCC’s Legacy clone option. I used it to clone my 5,1’s Monterey 12.6 install to a better NVMe SSD, which obviously needed to be bootable. Didn’t have to Bless afterwards.

This has to do with the way macOS has used separate boot and data volumes in recent versions, with the former being read-only. It’s a security thing. Note that whilst you can clone, you can’t keep doing incremental backups to it like a normal backup. It may work for a bit but isn’t reliable. It’s a one and done thing.

 

[genexx]

Legacy Patcher...........

If the Patcher is doing what Open Core does, you simply have to Mount the EFI Partition and copy the EFI Folder from the Original HD/SSD/NVME to the clone as you have to with OpenCore Systems copied via CCC.

 

[lovely666]

Thanks @mode11, @genexx @MisterAndrew, I can confirm that I was using the bootable clone option, and that I don't need to clone the EFI Partition as I use an externall usb stick that contains opencore, which I always boot from. eg opencore boots up, and i choose the new clone as the boot drive, which is what doesn't work until to I bless/snapshot the new clone.

Open Core Legacy Patcher, is simpy a tool that installs opencore (it can setup file patching to allow unsupported hardware (nvidia) cards to work but i don't use that as i have all supported hardware except for the base system).

 

[mode11]

I use Martin Lo’s OC, which I keep on the EFI of a SATA SSD in bay 1. That disk is for Windows (ensures it’s not possible to boot Windows without OC running). So I didn’t do anything with OC when I cloned my disk.

 

[lovely666]

I use Martin Lo’s OC, which I keep on the EFI of a SATA SSD in bay 1. That disk is for Windows (ensures it’s not possible to boot Windows without OC running). So I didn’t do anything with OC when I cloned my disk.

Very simular to how i use an external usb sticks. Additionally i have two of them which i use gdisk on to keep the partition ids the same, thus i don't need to worry about not being able to get into the firmware boot picker, nor do i need to worry about updating, just swap to the not current stick, update it and test it. if doesnt't work just swap back.

 

[genexx]

Thanks @mode11, @genexx @MisterAndrew, I can confirm that I was using the bootable clone option, and that I don't need to clone the EFI Partition as I use an externall usb stick that contains opencore, which I always boot from. eg opencore boots up, and i choose the new clone as the boot drive, which is what doesn't work until to I bless/snapshot the new clone.

Open Core Legacy Patcher, is simpy a tool that installs opencore (it can setup file patching to allow unsupported hardware (nvidia) cards to work but i don't use that as i have all supported hardware except for the base system).

@lovely666

interesting, i was able to clone Monterey+Ventura and just changed the EFI for the Laptop but as it was a SMBios Model without an T2 Monterey+Ventura did not seem to care.

On the SMBios iMac20,1 clone ( same Hardware different NVME ) i never had to change anything and SecureBoot worked 02% OOB.

Never had to re bless.

 

[lovely666]

@lovely666

interesting, i was able to clone Monterey+Ventura and just changed the EFI for the Laptop but as it was a SMBios Model without an T2 Monterey+Ventura did not seem to care.

On the SMBios iMac20,1 clone ( same Hardware different NVME ) i never had to change anything and SecureBoot worked 02% OOB.

Never had to re bless.

In the past it worked fine for me too, but something has changed that is forcing me to need to re-bless (blessing after ccc does it)

 

[dai-leung]

Legacy Patcher...........

If the Patcher is doing what Open Core does, you simply have to Mount the EFI Partition and copy the EFI Folder from the Original HD/SSD/NVME to the clone as you have to with OpenCore Systems copied via CCC.

I am not a computer person. Using Carbon Copy Cloner, I know how to create a bootable Sequoia 15.2. (But in real life it is not bootable.) I somewhat know how to use open core legacy patcher 2.2. Just wondering if you have time to give more details about how to “copy the EFI Folder from the Original HD/SSD/NVME to the clone as you have to with OpenCore Systems copied via CCC.”

 

[genexx]

I am not a computer person. Using Carbon Copy Cloner, I know how to create a bootable Sequoia 15.2. (But in real life it is not bootable.) I somewhat know how to use open core legacy patcher 2.2. Just wondering if you have time to give more details about how to “copy the EFI Folder from the Original HD/SSD/NVME to the clone as you have to with OpenCore Systems copied via CCC.”

The EFI Partition is Hidden, only on Intel and i have just used this Method on Intel Hackintosh.
With the New Mac (M1-4) this is not a Method to make a bootable Copy.
You have not to Clone, if you make a Time Machine Backup, and do not exclude anything from it, you have an Exact Copy after Migrating from it with the Migration Assistant, but this does not work for a legacy patched System.

in the Terminal you can list Partitions with:

diskutil list

Then Mount EFI Partition with like:

sudo diskutil mount disk0s1

Then Copy EFI Folder to the EFI Partition of the clone disk after cloning.

For OpenCore i would just use OpenCore Auxiliary Tools to mount the EFI Partition:
(left Symbol)

 

[dai-leung]

Then Copy EFI Folder to the EFI Partition of the clone disk after cloning.

My sincere thanks for your kind assistance! I know how to do the first two steps. It is this last step I have no clue what to do, e.g where is the EFI partition of the clone disk? I read it somewhere that I should use the CCC to do the copying.

Likewise, I have no clue how to use OpenCore Auxiliary Tools.

My previous effort in making a bootable CCC backup had met with failure. But yesterday, with the help of another experienced member, I was successfully except the OCLP EFI step.

If you have more time to show in detail for a non-computer person how the EFI could be copied, it would benefit many readers who use CCC + OCLP and wish to have a bootable backup and who don’t have the needed computer skill.

 

[dai-leung]

More….
After creating the CCC bootable backup, when pressed “option” key during startup, I did see the EFI icon as well as the CCC bootable backup disk icon as a startup disk. However, when I pressed on EFI, then on the next screen CCC bootable backup disk disappeared.

Realizing EFI was the problem, I tried to install OCLP to the CCC bootable disk, but couldn’t find this disk on the OCLP pop up local disk selection list.

 

[Macschrauber]

You guys can also use my copy ESP script:

Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump/ESP_tools.md at main · Macschrauber/Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump

A tool for dumping and analysing Mac firmwares. Plus flashing for Mac Pro 4.1 / 5.1 - Macschrauber/Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump

github.com

Its part of the Dumper package, download:

https://github.com/Macschrauber/Macschrauber-s-Rom-Dump/releases/download/Release/Download.the.Dumper.from.github.zip

 

[genexx]

@dai-leung

This is really easy:

Open OCAT OpenCore Auxiliary Tools

Klick

Select original HD:

Click Mount and enter Password in the Dialog:

A Finder Window with the EFI Folder will open:

but there is also a efi hd icon on the Desktop if you have set your Finder Settings to show HD´s on Desktop:

Open EFI HD -> Copy EFI Folder to Desktop and start again to mount the efi hd (ESP Partition) from the clone.
Copy the copied EFI Folder to the EFI HD from the Clone.

 

[Macschrauber]

noone said it is hard to do

It's just easier with the copy ESP script. Plus it also presents detailled data, like drive make, position, interface and bootloader kind / version.

 

[dai-leung]

This is really easy:

Open OCAT OpenCore Auxiliary Tools

Sincere thanks for your time and effort in giving such detailed instructions to copy the EFI to CCC!

I will give it a try. Even if I may not succeed due to limited technical ability, I am sure that members with more technical ability will benefit from your instructions and succeed.

For Macs with OS15.2 and without OCLP, it seems possible to create a CCC Legacy Bootable backup. Just wondering if you have plan to do a bootable backup. If you have, it would give a definitive and authoritative answer to whether it is possible to create an OCLP CCC Legacy Bootable backup.

 

[flyproductions]

I am not a computer person. Using Carbon Copy Cloner, I know how to create a bootable Sequoia 15.2. (But in real life it is not bootable.)

I’m using CCC to keep a bootable Clone of my main "daily-driver"-disk too. It's Monterey but works up to Sequoia as well.

Two simplei take, of which i found the first one essential. At least in my case:

1. To make real use of "Legacy Bootable Copy Assistant", i had to boot with another volume, not the one the clone shall be made of. Trying to make bootable copies of the active system drive always resulted in errors for me!

2. I just maually transferre the OC-folder of the source drives EFI-partition to the one of the target drive. It's such a simple task that in the end there are no "tools" needed: Mount the source's ESP "sudo diskutil mount disk(whatever physical disk your bootvolume is on)s1", copy the OC-folder to dektop or whereever you like, eject ESP, "sudo diskutil mount disk(number of target disk)s1", copy OC-folder to EFI-folder of this ESP. Eject ESP, trash OC-folder from Desktop. Done!

...and the second step ist not even neccessary as you should be able to boot the clone if even there is any correctly configired OC anywhere on the machine. The disk shoud nicely appeare in the OC-bootpicker after choosing EFI-boot in the native bootpicker. I do this just in case the source-drive might render completely unusable for any reason.

 

[dai-leung]

Thanks for sharing your expertise and experience!

Trying to make bootable copies of the active system drive always resulted in errors for me!

Me too. CCC legacy bootable does not work for OS14.7, but does work for 15.2.

Mount the source's ESP

I have read your post many times but I have limited computer skill, still couldn’t understand what is ESP and how does it relates to EFI. Your post is simple, but it seems contains useful information which I struggle to understand.

Am I correct for each external disk with several partitions, there is only one EFI needed for disk0. EFI is not needed for each partition. Yes?

 

[flyproductions]

I have read your post many times but I have limited computer skill, still couldn’t understand what is ESP and how does it relates to EFI. Your post is simple, but it seems contains useful information which I struggle to understand.

Sorry! ESP means EFI System Partition, which usually does not mount to the desktop and sits on s1 of the physical disk holding also the OS on partition s2. So i. e., if system is disk0s2, ESP is disk0s1.

Can be mounted to desktop, using terminal "sudo diskutil mount disk0s1". Mounts as EFI. On it is a folder which is also named EFI, which holds the OC (OpenCore) folder.

Am I correct for each external disk with several partitions, there is only one EFI needed for disk0. EFI is not needed for each partition. Yes?

Not quite! Not for each partition if you have multiple OSes on the same physical disk (which i personally would not recommend). But each physical disk holding a system has to have it's own EFI partition. But only one of them needs to hold an OpenCore-folder to appeare as EFI-boot in bootpicker to boot OC-dependent OSes. You can even boot OC via USB-stick with not a single OC-installation on the machine itself.

 

[dai-leung]

Thanks again for explaining the function and usage of EFI! Obviously, I don’t want to bother you with nitty gritty. But if you answer, I will continue to ask questions.

With your help, I believe I installed and understand EFI correctly and EFI is not my problem, but below is my problem.

I have an external disk with 2 partitions. I used OCLP to install OS15.2 and EFI on partition 1. On partition 2, using CCC, I created a Legacy Bootable Backup of 15.2 (i can see the system and data volumes on disk utilities and on terminal. Also other member confirmed that the bootable backup is indeed bootable on his Mac).

On startup and pressed “option”, I saw EFI, OS15.2 and CCC bootable backup (so the EFI was correctly installed). I select EFI, however, now I saw only OS15.2 as a startup disk, but don’t see CCC bootable backup as a startup disk at all.

Am I correct, from your explanation, CCC bootable backup is the problem. it simply does not work with OPLC macs. EFI is not the problem.

 

[flyproductions]

Am I correct, from your explanation, CCC bootable backup is the problem. it simply does not work with OPLC macs. EFI is not the problem.

No! This is exactly, what i do. I have a copy/clone of my main drive, which is created with CCC. But i have to boot from some other/third drive, meanig not the drive, i want to clone, my main drive in this case and also (sure!) not the target drive. The result then appeares nicely in the OC-bootpicker and boots fine. Even no need to have a working OC in it's own ESP as long as there is OC available anywhere on the machine.

Did you create your clone with CCC's "Legacy Bootable Copy Assistent“-function and does it complete without anx error messages in the end?

 

[dai-leung]

“Did you create your clone with CCC's "Legacy Bootable Copy Assistent“-function and does it complete without anx error messages in the end?“

I did that without error but only 15.2 could create such bootable clone. Another member who has a newer Mac which did not required OCLP confirmed that he could create a CCC bootable clone with OS15.2.

Your computer skill is sky high compared to me. Just waondering if you have time to share a step by step instructions of what you did that made the CCC bootable clone appeared in the boot picker.