Career advice? GE vs. DoD

[Hoef]

Oops just saw your latest posts .... not starting $150k, but only $50k .... Couple of my MBA buddies came from GE and I am always impressed with them. The finance path can open many doors .... GE Capital rocks

 

[kuyu]

I got some better info about the salaries. In the short term (1-10 years) the money is about the same in both jobs. After that, I'd assume that GE would be higher. However, when you consider the time required to earn the money, then the GE job is far less money.

In other words, if I put in the hours GE requires at the DoD job, I'd make a lot more than GE pays (at first).

I also got some more info about the cultures at both places, and they differ quite a bit. I read on Vault.com that GE is a sort of "forced pyramid." You're either moving up or moving out. Also, rumor is that Immelt plans to eliminate 70% of the "back office", which includes Finance. He's more of a sales/marketing guy than Welch was. From what I've gathered, it seems like the way to get ahead a GE is to keep changing jobs (and moving) as much as possible. It's hard to fire a moving target.

DoD is more of a slow development organization. The program I'm looking at is 3 years with mentors, professional development courses, certifications, non-stop continuing education, and a free MBA from a top 25 B-school. They also pay for a GMAT prep-course, so you're basically guaranteed to be accepted. If you like you're job at DoD, you are allowed to keep doing it. No forcing people "up or out". Although advancement is encouraged, and fairly easy if you're a good worker.

DoD also encourages employees to take on special projects for overtime. You don't do your 9-5 job for OT, but rather work on these projects in groups. They want their finance/accounting people to propose these things to help efficiency. I'd love to know that I saved the tax payers a few hundred million dollars. Beats earning GE's shareholders an extra $.02 on the year...

 

[jefhatfield]

I got some better info about the salaries. In the short term (1-10 years) the money is about the same in both jobs. After that, I'd assume that GE would be higher. However, when you consider the time required to earn the money, then the GE job is far less money.

In other words, if I put in the hours GE requires at the DoD job, I'd make a lot more than GE pays (at first).

I also got some more info about the cultures at both places, and they differ quite a bit. I read on Vault.com that GE is a sort of "forced pyramid." You're either moving up or moving out. Also, rumor is that Immelt plans to eliminate 70% of the "back office", which includes Finance. He's more of a sales/marketing guy than Welch was. From what I've gathered, it seems like the way to get ahead a GE is to keep changing jobs (and moving) as much as possible. It's hard to fire a moving target.

DoD is more of a slow development organization. The program I'm looking at is 3 years with mentors, professional development courses, certifications, non-stop continuing education, and a free MBA from a top 25 B-school. They also pay for a GMAT prep-course, so you're basically guaranteed to be accepted. If you like you're job at DoD, you are allowed to keep doing it. No forcing people "up or out". Although advancement is encouraged, and fairly easy if you're a good worker.

DoD also encourages employees to take on special projects for overtime. You don't do your 9-5 job for OT, but rather work on these projects in groups. They want their finance/accounting people to propose these things to help efficiency. I'd love to know that I saved the tax payers a few hundred million dollars. Beats earning GE's shareholders an extra $.02 on the year...

ok, here is the problem with the government, and military, giving its employees a chance to get a top 25 mba (which i doubt and never have seen at the two federal jobs i have been in, or seen among the many federal workers i know)...getting a federal worker or military person to get an mba makes the private sector much more desireable

i know an air force sgt. who used his educational benefits to get a BS then used it to get halfway through his mba program at which a major us corporation snapped him up and tripled his air force pay...and guess what, he's not in the air force anymore

most major american corporations have a move up or move out mentality, and while playing this rat race, most corporations like the idea of cutting out middle managers (like the mba) to make up for temporary corporate losses...it's the same story everywhere and its brutal and the mba who survives many years is a warrior in battle...if you get off on this type of thing, and the better money that comes with it, only being in the corporate world, or starting your own business, will make you happy

if being in an environment which does not merit the smart and keeps everyone employed and not competing, a form of socialism/communism, and you can somehow not get bored to tears with it, then i say go for a federal job

i consider myself intelligent but only mildly ambitious and the federal govt. was way too laid back for me...to me, you sound like you may be intelligent and highly ambitious and i could not imagine you being a civil servant or government slug

 

[jefhatfield]

but "all work is honorable"

i remember reading this in colin powell's autobiography and this simple statement meant more to me than anything i ever learned in k-12, college, or graduate school concerning work

there really is not any most important job, and our society needs corporate middle managers/controllers/accountants and government civil servants, and could not survive without either

with effort, you can basically end up in any field out there you choose for the rest of your life and that's the easy part...the hard part is finding something you can do for a living and liking it

when a person is at work 30, 40, 50, 60+ hours a week, month after month, year after year, it is absolutely necessary that one does not hate their work

 

[Hoef]

and a free MBA from a top 25 B-school. They also pay for a GMAT prep-course, so you're basically guaranteed to be accepted.

There is significant difference in a top-25 MBA vs top-5 MBA .... Nobody can guarantee acceptance to the top-5.

 

[jefhatfield]

There is significant difference in a top-25 MBA vs top-5 MBA .... Nobody can guarantee acceptance to the top-5.

in yeaple's mba guide, or most mba guides, cal was, from year to year, ranked from #19 to #24 for mba programs, and harvard or stanford was from #1 to #4, and for a northern californian like me, there is a huge perceived difference between stanford and cal

...thus the big hatred/rivalry between the two schools since many a cal alum, and they won't admit this, were stanford rejects

looking at gmat scores, sat scores, and lsat scores, both cal and stanford are great schools, but the latter is 7 times harder to get into and is a standard deviation higher in gpa and test scores overall than cal

 

[Hoef]

looking at gmat scores, sat scores, and lsat scores, both cal and stanford are great schools, but the latter is 7 times harder to get into and is a standard deviation higher in gpa and test scores overall than cal

Yeah I see your point .... Though it is what employers perceive when they start recruiting MBA grads. For finance for instance:

GE + Stanford --> Wall Street
GE + Cal --> Probably not Wall street

I am not saying it is fair, but it is just a general perception. That said, Stanford is super difficult to get into. Harvard is slightly easier (all relative of course )

 

[jefhatfield]

Yeah I see your point .... Though it is what employers perceive when they start recruiting MBA grads. For finance for instance:

GE + Stanford --> Wall Street
GE + Cal --> Probably not Wall street

I am not saying it is fair, but it is just a general perception. That said, Stanford is super difficult to get into. Harvard is slightly easier (all relative of course )

with 25+ years in the working field, and an hr degree, i advised a young person who just got out of college (stanford university) with a ba in philosophy and wanted to enter the business world

he thought there was no way anyone would hire him in any business capacity, but i told him, fair or not, stanford has a magic ring to it, and that he would find no trouble starting a career in the corporate world

he said, "but i didn't study business", but business people don't learn the ropes of business in business school, i told him, and companies like to have employees from the ivy league and top private schools (like stanford) because of the perceived value that such an expensive and sought after education/credential can add to the organization

i rarely hear somebody say, "so and so studied business or engineering or (fill in the blank) at stanford, but merely that they attended there...too many people, for better or for worse, are very impressed by that

 

[cr2sh]

I got some better info about the salaries. In the short term (1-10 years) the money is about the same in both jobs. After that, I'd assume that GE would be higher. However, when you consider the time required to earn the money, then the GE job is far less money.

In other words, if I put in the hours GE requires at the DoD job, I'd make a lot more than GE pays (at first).

I also got some more info about the cultures at both places, and they differ quite a bit. I read on Vault.com that GE is a sort of "forced pyramid." You're either moving up or moving out. Also, rumor is that Immelt plans to eliminate 70% of the "back office", which includes Finance. He's more of a sales/marketing guy than Welch was. From what I've gathered, it seems like the way to get ahead a GE is to keep changing jobs (and moving) as much as possible. It's hard to fire a moving target.

DoD is more of a slow development organization. The program I'm looking at is 3 years with mentors, professional development courses, certifications, non-stop continuing education, and a free MBA from a top 25 B-school. They also pay for a GMAT prep-course, so you're basically guaranteed to be accepted. If you like you're job at DoD, you are allowed to keep doing it. No forcing people "up or out". Although advancement is encouraged, and fairly easy if you're a good worker.

DoD also encourages employees to take on special projects for overtime. You don't do your 9-5 job for OT, but rather work on these projects in groups. They want their finance/accounting people to propose these things to help efficiency. I'd love to know that I saved the tax payers a few hundred million dollars. Beats earning GE's shareholders an extra $.02 on the year...

Sounds like you have your mind made up. That's fantastic.. I think the DoD job sounds really promising. It also sounds like you've thought long a hard about the type of person you are and what you're looking for - that's key.

Anyway, this is your first job out of college... and as much as you'd like to think fo the long term, there is a good chance you won't stay there until you retire...

I say go for it!

 

[kuyu]

Sounds like you have your mind made up. That's fantastic.. I think the DoD job sounds really promising. It also sounds like you've thought long a hard about the type of person you are and what you're looking for - that's key.

Anyway, this is your first job out of college... and as much as you'd like to think fo the long term, there is a good chance you won't stay there until you retire...

I say go for it!

Thanks! Having the offer from DoD really takes the pressure off for my on-site with GE. It's kind of my ace in the hole. I sort of feel like I'm interviewing them more than they're interviewing me.

 

[jefhatfield]

Thanks! Having the offer from DoD really takes the pressure off for my on-site with GE. It's kind of my ace in the hole. I sort of feel like I'm interviewing them more than they're interviewing me.

that's the edge you will need for an interview with a heavyweight like ge, and chances are they will offer you a job

 

[gadfly]

wow, when do you have your interview at GE ? I have an onsite interview next week as well.

 

[kuyu]

wow, when do you have your interview at GE ? I have an onsite interview next week as well.

Had it this morning. Not as bad as I was expecting. Now comes the waiting game

 

[gadfly]

Had it this morning. Not as bad as I was expecting. Now comes the waiting game

well spill the beans man, what was it like !?!?! did they do a behavioral interview, give me the details !!

 

[SharksFan22]

It all really depends on your priorities. GE probably has a higher risk (e.g. "Welching") and will require longer hours, but the payoff is better. The DoD job will probably be much more stable but will provide less reward at the end of 5 years. If you have a family and/or kids, the DoD job may foster a better environment for that lifestyle. Alternatively, if you don't have a wife or kids, the GE job will let you expand your horizons and see more of the business world.

Another point -- as someone with 15 years in the technology field, I see many candidates in their late-20s at a crossroads. Things that I've seen:

- The kid who comes in at 25 years old with an undergradute degree and an MBA from Stanford (I'm in the Bay Area) is a waste of my time. They have absolutely no real world experience and are far to arrogant to listen to someone with experience. They look at the slight grey in my hair and think that this old guy doesn't know anything. The only thing worse than that is the same kid but with 2 years at McKinsey, Accenture or any other consulting house. I shudder at that.
- The kid who comes in at 27-29 years old who's spent five years at a job and might be in the process of starting or working on their MBA generally is a much better candidate. This person has "seen" much more of the real world and has probably seen success and failure. This candidate has been beat up and has some battle scars -- they'll handle success and failure much better. This candidate will have a much better grasp of reality and probably will be more productive.

Living though the dot-com bubble I got a kick out of the kids who at 25 with their freshly minted Stanford MBA who were VP of Product Development or VP of Business Development at an Internet starup, only to see themselves getting interviews for nothing more than an associate marketing coordinator job when the bubble burst. Many of these hot-shots were humbled tremendously in 2002/2003.

I just had a similar discussion with a 22 year old in his last year of his undergraduate program who's trying to decide if he should go to grad school next fall. My advice to him was to take that undergraduate degree, go get a job and work in real world for five years, and THEN go after the MBA. He'll appreciate and derive more value from the MBA program after he has some experience.

Disclaimer -- I have a B.S. in Marketing from a public California state university and did not get an MBA. In my case, I work in sales and promotion and there are few doors that an MBA would open for me. If I was in finance, economincs or something like that then an MBA would be a much more worthwhile investment. Also, I've done the 100-hour week Silicon Valley startups and am DONE with that lifestyle. Great financial rewards, but I've learned to "work to live" not "live to work". A subtle but significant philosophy and one that works better for me. I'll give up the BMW for a Lexus and the 3,000 square foot home for a luxury condo and get back my weekends and evenings. There's too many things to see and explore in this world. I like being able to play 18 holes at 3pm on a Wednesday.

Good luck with whatever path you choose. Sounds like they're both fantastic opportunites.

 

[kuyu]

SharksFan22: Excellent advice. I like the way you put it, "work to live." That sounds good to me. I like to play golf too, and none of the FMP's I met have played a hole, let alone 18, in years. My advisor echoed your sentiment regarding an MBA. He said "go get a job making real money for 4-6 years, and see if it's worth giving up for 3 letters on your resume." Luckily, the DoD will pay for the MBA from a top 20 B-school. But it'll take 4-5 years to complete because it's part time.

Gadfly: After the 3 mile run, they make you do a case study in 10 minutes, then 50 push-ups, followed by a timed run up the agrocrag. Just kidding! Here's the run down of my entire visit. If you're anything like me you'll want every detail...

The night before you interview a few current FMP's will take you and the other 3-4 candidates out to dinner. GE's paying for the whole thing, so get something good. I wouldn't recommend ordering booze (even though the FMP's will). Don't get something more expensive than them. One of my FMP's ordered the filet mignon and lobster tail, so I got a filet too. Dinner will last 2-3 hours, and you'll have ample time to ask them anything you want about the program. Just keep in mind that they are cheerleaders. I asked "what's the worst thing about the program?" This will throw them off a bit!

The next morning, another FMP will greet you and the other candidates at the site and give you a last minute pep talk. They'll reassure you that if they did it, so can you. Next, the HR manager of your divisions program will show you all a video about working at GE. Cool video. Then they'll split you up and start the interviews. The schedule is different for each of you so the order of your interviews may vary slightly.

First, I had the one on one with the HR manager. He/she will take your resume, application, consent form, and transcript. This interview will focus primarily on work and education experience. Be polite, concise, and maintain eye contact. Make sure to get contact information. This lasts for about a half hour.

Next, I had the "good cop" interview. Two managers will talk to you for ~45 minutes. They are more interested in getting to know you as a person. They will be very friendly. Smile a lot. All of these questions are behavioral. Have good answers ready. If you show weakness they will pounce on you. They asked me what my boss would say is my greatest weakness. When I stalled, they said "actually, give me 3 weaknesses." Don't stall. Again, eye contact, be concise, smile, and get contact info.

Next, I had the "bad cop" interview. Two other managers will again talk to you for ~45 minutes. They aren't supposed to be your friend. Try to develop repoire with them both immediatly. Think to yourself, "how can I show them that they need me on their team?" Have some really good questions for these two. The more thoughtful and insightful your questions, the better you'll come off. Try to ask them something no candidate should have to balls to ask, like "what's the worst thing about being assigned an FMP in your function" or "if you had one complaint about FMP's, what would it be?" They will be impressed that you aren't affraid of them, or of taking risks.

Normally, a few other FMP's would take you all out to lunch. But they all had class on the day I was there, so the HR manager took us to lunch. No big deal here. Just mind your manners. Napkin in the lap the second you sit down, no elbows on the table, eat slowly, don't speak with food in your mouth. Impress your mother on this one

All in all, you'll find that the different interviewers will ask some of the same questions. Give the same answers. They are looking for honest people. Integrity is VERY important at GE. When they ask for weaknesses, be honest. If you don't have any, why would you need a development program? Make sure to get contact info for everyone you talk to. Follow up with personalized thank you notes.

Good Luck, it's a great opportunity!

 

[kuyu]

Time to bring this one back from the dead!

Since my last post I've received offers from both GE and DoD (DFAS actually). I have until Monday night to make my decision because DFAS must hear back by next friday (via mail).

The GE FMP position is with Consumer and Industrial. The rotations are in Louisville, Cleveland, Plainville CT, San Francisco, somewhere in FL, and Budapest. No word yet on where my first rotation would be.

Again, DFAS is in Indy. My position would be an Entry Level Financial Management Analyst. It's a three year rotational program within Army Services. DFAS basically handles all of the finance and accounting functions for the military and pentagon. There's a shot that I'd do 9 months in Houston helping shut down that office (base closings and all). They will pay for my MBA at Indiana, which is ranked 18 in the nation for MBA programs.

So it's the same job at either place. I think either would look good on my resume when I'm 30. DFAS is slightly less hours and a bit more money, but pay is capped over the 7-10 term. GE offers less $ upfront but a larger upshot in the 7-10 term (if you're good). DFAS has 100% job security, GE will fire you if you get below an 85% on a the same test twice.

The top 25% of FMP's generally go on to Corporate Audit Staff. It's a globetrotting position with 100+ hour weeks. CAS work 12 days straight, but on the 2 days off they will fly you anywhere in the world first class, or fly anyone to you first class. Most CAS people don't have apartments, houses, or cars. They live in hotels for 3 years.

The rest of the FMP's take off-program positions, generally as analysts. FMP helps you move up, but FMP + CAS = FMP + 10-15 years of experience.

What a dilemma! DFAS seems a bit like joining the Air Force; laid back, good training, good opporunity for advancement. GE is more like joining the Marines; gung-ho, semper fi, do or die. CAS is more like the Navy Seals; best of the best of the best.

I've worked 60 hour weeks in past summers. It's not that bad, but not a lot of time for anything else. The problem is that I'm 23. I don't really know "what kind of person I am" per se. It may come down to a coin toss, best 2 of 3 of course! Any more advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[KingSleaze]

A little more money for a lot more hours working for it, no free time to spend it in.
A degree that future employers could understand. If you stay with it, a government pension.

 

[pengkhoon]

My wife worked for G.E. for several years, went through the FMP program and its amazing what it has done for her. At her recent job she was the only one who didn't have to get an interview with the President of the company because of her FMP - as long as the people who hire you know and understand what its all about, its a great thing to have.

If you want to know more about the FMP program, PM me with your email and I'll have my wife tell you more about it.

As for DOD, its not a bad thing, but it is the government - and you'll come across more people who are there just to have a job as opposed to getting people who might care a little more about what they do. But you do have more flexibility and free time. Is the DOD job in DC? The housing market is crazy and the traffic nuts. We moved from there a year ago and its only gotten worse.

And in most cases, any finance job is always going to be more than 40 hours a week. If that's important to you, then you need to make the decision now and go for the DOD job. If you ever get to the private sector, it will always be more time...

D

Hi, how can I reach you and your wife for more information about the interview?

 

[RemoteAccess]

I realize this is an old post, but I'm curious...

Which offer did you take and how did it work out?