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KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
No, you butchered it. TB is overkill for things like flash drives and mice, and you are just being your typical Apple curmudgeon with your rants.

TB perfect for things like docks and big displays with docks. Those are consumer devices. I expect the rumored Apple TV would also use TB instead of HDMI. Just because Belkin thinks it can get $300 for its dock doesn't mean others will be as delusional.

Sure it's perfect, but it's not aimed at consumers at the price/feature set that is being announced.

300$ for a dock ? SSD drives in a stripe set or RAID 5 configuration in external housings ? This is not consumer stuff.

I'm not being a typical Apple curmudgeon, I'm being a realist here. Aside from Apple's marketing of it, what has the market shown Thunderbolt to be if not something that's aimed at a different market than consumers ?

Frankly, I'll "believe" when I see products. Right now, to try to apologize for Thunderbolt as a consumer technology is insane in light of the information we have available.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,024
7,867
Frankly, I'll "believe" when I see products. Right now, to try to apologize for Thunderbolt as a consumer technology is insane in light of the information we have available.

It's capable of being a consumer technology. I agree that Apple could have, and probably should have done more to promote it, perhaps by developing its own dock or port replicator, or adding a port to the Time Capsule to make the initial backup lightning fast, but the ATD is a nice device that makes good use of it.

Acer and Lenovo have already announced Ultrabooks with Thunderbolt, and others will follow. While I don't expect Ultrabooks to be 40% of the market by the end of this year, I do expect them to be a very significant percentage of the market by the end of the year. Plus, Windows 8 might trigger another buying cycle in the PC world. We should see more devices.

Anyway, LaCie has a $400 TB external hard drive. It's at the very edge of "consumer," but once Ultrabooks become more prevalent, the market for $200 TB external hard drives becomes more compelling.
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
No, you butchered it. TB is overkill for things like flash drives and mice, and you are just being your typical Apple curmudgeon self with your rants.
It is still nice to see USB 3.0 flash drives break into the +100-150 MB/s area. They are expensive but try pocketing a 2.5" SSD compared to a flash drive.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
Anyway, LaCie has a $400 TB external hard drive. It's at the very edge of "consumer,"

I don't get why you feel the need to justify TB in light of this. 400$ for an external hard drive is ridiculous as far as consumers go. The performance needs just aren't there in consumer applications (besides people who just don't want to wait for that initial data load).
 

Navdakilla

macrumors 65816
Feb 3, 2011
1,100
13
Canada
I like these thunderbolt devices being released, hopefully they will come down in price, I'll have to scoop some up!
 

repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
I don't get why you feel the need to justify TB in light of this. 400$ for an external hard drive is ridiculous as far as consumers go. The performance needs just aren't there in consumer applications (besides people who just don't want to wait for that initial data load).

You're just not being realistic about the economics of the industry. I see that you're from Canada, so maybe you're not up on the whole Occupy movement and the "We are the 99%" thing, but just as 1% of the US population controls 40% of the wealth, the minority of professional and enterprise customers are responsible for an overwhelming percentage of the profit in the PC industry.

Although Apple has marketed Thunderbolt in a very high-profile fashion, the reality is that production silicon hasn't even been available for a full year yet, and it all comes from one source—Intel. Virtually all of it has gone into Apple devices due to their unique arrangement with Intel. If you are a third party OEM, fighting for highly allocated controllers, entering a market where almost every new product has little to no direct competition, are you going to make cheap, low margin, "consumer" devices? Hell, no! You're gonna make some money instead.

The people who can benefit the most from a 20Gbps interface are those who are billing out substantial amounts for their time—the professionals—or those working on mission critical, cost is no object projects. Face it, most people don't need the types of Thunderbolt accessories that have been brought to market thus far, but for those that do, they're great, regardless of the high prices. Same as any new tech, really. Also, why are you of the notion that Thunderbolt should ever match pricing with technologies that offer 1/4 the bandwidth and are considerably more mature (e.g. USB 3.0 or eSATA 6Gbps)? You do realize that this is pushing way into new territory for single cable bandwidth for an external PC interface?

As has been pointed out before, the Apple Thunderbolt display is a good example of a "consumer" application for Thunderbolt. Apple, of course, isn't in the same boat as everyone else when it comes to getting TB controller chips.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
You're just not being realistic about the economics of the industry. I see that you're from Canada, so maybe you're not up on the whole Occupy movement and the "We are the 99%" thing, but just as 1% of the US population controls 40% of the wealth, the minority of professional and enterprise customers are responsible for an overwhelming percentage of the profit in the PC industry.

Uh ? What the hell was that about ?

BTW, I had the whole "Occupy" movement sitting outside my office building for like 3 months. :rolleyes: (I work next to the stock exchange in Montreal).

Maybe you're just not getting it : There are no consumer Thunderbolt products. No the Apple ACD is not a consumer product (I don't qualify IPS monitors that cost near 1k$ as consumer tech).
 

repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
Uh ? What the hell was that about ?

BTW, I had the whole "Occupy" movement sitting outside my office building for like 3 months. :rolleyes: (I work next to the stock exchange in Montreal).

Sorry, it just sounded like you were trying to rally consumers into a movement akin to the "We are the 99%", but targeting instead the existence of elitist technologies that are priced higher than the masses can afford.

Maybe you're just not getting it : There are no consumer Thunderbolt products. No the Apple ACD is not a consumer product (I don't qualify IPS monitors that cost near 1k$ as consumer tech).

I think you're being a little narrow with your definition of "consumer." I can pick up an Apple TB display from at least 3 different stores at my local mall. And if I peruse the TV section of Best Buy I can find dozens of IPS displays that retail for more than $1k.
 

repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
The controller chips that mount in the PCs, yes. But the controller chips for devices? They're going unused.

Same chips, they only come in two flavors—Light Ridge if you want two Thunderbolt ports, and Eagle Ridge if you only need one.
 

erockadus

macrumors newbie
Feb 16, 2011
11
0
pdx
bootable by iMac ???

Can someone verify if this is bootable by iMac, I"m about to purchase a new iMac and it would save me lots of $$$ if I didn't have to add the optional ssd.
 

SKTHEPREZ

macrumors member
Jan 5, 2012
51
0
570, PA
Wow...

I must say, this is the scariest, yet most intriguing device that was released at CES. The future can either be made, or destroyed, with all the technology we are making. Unfortunately the few bad apple's out of the bunch will probably spoil it for all of us, and it will lead to the world's end. (No pun intended, as I love "thee" Apple).
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
Sorry, it just sounded like you were trying to rally consumers into a movement akin to the "We are the 99%", but targeting instead the existence of elitist technologies that are priced higher than the masses can afford.

No, I'm not making such a statement since I'm probably closer to the 1% than the 99% anyhow. I'm saying all these products offer little value to consumers for the price they are at.

You know the saying, you can get 90% of the performance for 10% of the cost, and the other 10% of the performance for 90% of the cost. Consumers don't need the last 10% of performance.

Thunderbolt is that last 10%.

I think you're being a little narrow with your definition of "consumer." I can pick up an Apple TB display from at least 3 different stores at my local mall. And if I peruse the TV section of Best Buy I can find dozens of IPS displays that retail for more than $1k.

*sigh*. And I have a Cisco Pix 501 here in my house which I used for years as my Internet firewall. That doesn't make it a consumer product.

IPS TVs are not IPS computer monitors. There's a reason consumers want IPS in a TV, viewing angles. I don't always sit straight in front of a TV, especially if I'm having a bunch of people over to watch the game or something.

Thunderbolt looks more and more like its being aimed at the prosumer/professional market. Not the consumer. The products reflect that (SSD external enclosures, RAID arrays, 300$ port extenders, IPS monitors with some ports on it).
 

repoman27

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2011
485
167
No, I'm not making such a statement since I'm probably closer to the 1% than the 99% anyhow. I'm saying all these products offer little value to consumers for the price they are at.

You know the saying, you can get 90% of the performance for 10% of the cost, and the other 10% of the performance for 90% of the cost. Consumers don't need the last 10% of performance.

Thunderbolt is that last 10%.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I also believe that different consumers have different needs. I look at Thunderbolt through the lens of a user who was constantly saturating the external I/O bandwidth available on pre-Thunderbolt MacBook Pros. As Apple started replacing ExpressCard slots with SD card readers, things were looking pretty grim. ExpressCard at least gets me 250MB/s, but the only Mac left with one is the 17" MBP. The options after that are Gigabit Ethernet at 125MB/s, FireWire 800 at 80MB/s or USB 2.0 at 32MB/s. At 1000MB/s, Thunderbolt actually gives you the last 75% of performance vs ExpressCard or the last 92% vs FW800.

On the other hand, most consumers don't currently need or care about transfers at speeds faster than USB 2.0. And the 2011 Macs are anomalies anyway, in that they will most likely be the only Thunderbolt PCs ever produced that don't also have USB 3.0. And I will wholeheartedly agree that the audience for external devices that require more bandwidth than USB 3.0 provides is very small. Post Ivy Bridge, people will stop looking at Thunderbolt as an external storage interface unless they have very demanding needs or own a 2011 Thunderbolt Mac. Consumer or mainstream devices may well emerge as the technology matures and the cost comes down, but they will undoubtedly need to leverage the unique capabilities of Thunderbolt in order to not be undercut by an inherently cheaper USB 3.0 equivalent.

I've never known a consumer to buy what they really needed. As far as I can tell, they either buy what they want or whatever is marketed to them. How many people actually need an SUV or any car that puts out more than 250BHP, yet how many do you see on the road? And value? What consumer knows anything about that?

*sigh*. And I have a Cisco Pix 501 here in my house which I used for years as my Internet firewall. That doesn't make it a consumer product.

IPS TVs are not IPS computer monitors. There's a reason consumers want IPS in a TV, viewing angles. I don't always sit straight in front of a TV, especially if I'm having a bunch of people over to watch the game or something.

Thunderbolt looks more and more like its being aimed at the prosumer/professional market. Not the consumer. The products reflect that (SSD external enclosures, RAID arrays, 300$ port extenders, IPS monitors with some ports on it).

I was going to point out that all pros are also consumers when they're not on the clock. I guess you illustrated the corollary of that by demonstrating that using pro gear around the house doesn't necessarily make it generally appropriate for consumers.

All consumers would love to have IPS displays in all their gear, which is why most Apple devices currently use the technology. Most people have no idea what the difference is between various display technologies, and so when buying a monitor, they only look at the marketing specs which tout cost, size and "Full HD!". They tend to buy 24-inch, 1920x1080, TN panels for $140 because they have no idea how these differ from $1k, 27", 2560x1440, IPS panels, except for the 3 inches. Thank goodness Apple knows what's best for the poor consumers and forces it on them.

I know you're not going to agree with me, but despite the $1000 price tag, the Apple Thunderbolt Display is very clearly targeted at consumers. It's actually a fairly marginal display for many professional uses.

I'm a bit surprised that anyone ever thought Thunderbolt was intended to be for inexpensive consumer devices. It's a bi-directional, 20Gbps I/O interface. All of the similarly capable solutions currently available are ludicrously expensive, even compared to Thunderbolt. Price out 10GbE, Fibre Channel, external mini-SAS, or InfiniBand gear, or point me to a laptop that ships with one of these interfaces built in.

It seems to me that there are a lot of folks who got excited about Thunderbolt for whatever reason and are now disappointed that they don't actually need it. The most common reaction seems to be annoyance at the high prices, but the reality is that the prices are just fine, as long as you really need a solution that Thunderbolt can currently provide.
 
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