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Yes, the apps are updated. But with new features. iLife got updated in August with the same applications. That wasn't free.

But, iLife apps are NOT core applications. They did not come with the OS. Its bad enough I had to pay for Mail and Notes, which iPhone users got free. Its worse that I'll have to pay to get these upgraded, not to 2.0, but to a more usable level (EG, Safari)

You may not be right, I may not be right, but I think we can all agree that Apple is not right.
 
But, iLife apps are NOT core applications. They did not come with the OS. Its bad enough I had to pay for Mail and Notes, which iPhone users got free. Its worse that I'll have to pay to get these upgraded, not to 2.0, but to a more usable level (EG, Safari)

You may not be right, I may not be right, but I think we can all agree that Apple is not right.
iPod apps didn't come with the OS, either. You bought an iPod, something that never had those features in the history of the product. And how is Safari not usable now?
 
iPod apps didn't come with the OS, either. You bought an iPod, something that never had those features in the history of the product. And how is Safari not usable now?

Oh but if I go to the store this minute there WILL be those Applications on there.
 
To Adokimus, I just posted something about this in another thread before I read your post. Suffice it to say, I work in this area and you're entirely correct. Sarbanes-Oxley has nothing to do with Apple's decision.

(I haven't read the rest of this thread, so please forgive me if I step on any toes....)
 
To Adokimus, I just posted something about this in another thread before I read your post. Suffice it to say, I work in this area and you're entirely correct. Sarbanes-Oxley has nothing to do with Apple's decision.

(I haven't read the rest of this thread, so please forgive me if I step on any toes....)
The problem is that Apple NEVER cited this as their reason for charging. The onlookers did.
 
The problem is that Apple NEVER cited this as their reason for charging. The onlookers did.

If so, then I incorrectly stated Apple's position in my other post and stand corrected. However, didn't Steve Jobs cite the subscription accounting method used for the iPhone/Apple TV when he explained why the last iPod touch update was $20 while the same update for the iPhone was free? If he did, then that's exactly the same issue, and equally wrong.
 
The problem is that Apple NEVER cited this as their reason for charging. The onlookers did.

They clearly stated in their SDK presentation that they were charging because they accounted for the iPod Touch differently.
 
The problem is that Apple NEVER cited this as their reason for charging. The onlookers did.

Yes, they have. In interviews with the press. Search, and ye shall find. Try Engadget. Or, you know, Google.

The fact is, this hinges completely on footnotes in financial filings to the SEC. Change footnotes, change pricing structure. Saying, "I know that, but you are claiming that their reasoning was SOx, which it is not. They do the accounting, so it's up to them to decide how to deal with it." may be the strangest thing you have said here. So, have you changed your mind on whether Apple should do this? Oh, nevermind.... The fact is that FASB and the SEC, and now SOX, all dictate accounting for publicly traded companies, so to say that Apple's accounting is not affected by SOX is just plain ignorant.

This is nickel-n-diming customers just for.....well, frankly I don't know why. The $2 charge for N wireless was just stupid. $20 for the apps was petty. $? for OSX-Mobile 2.0 is the only one that halfway sounds acceptable, of course until we know the ? and the real deal behind bumping to "2.0", I'll withhold final judgement.

And I do understand accounting, I haven't seen many here that do. And I've probably been a longer, more loyal Apple owner than most of you, too. Doesn't mean I can't see when they have their head buried in something....icky. It is possible to like some, but not all things a company does.
 
Yes, they have. In interviews with the press. Search, and ye shall find. Try Engadget. Or, you know, Google.
I've tried to find this countless times since the whole 802.11n thing started. Yet I've never been able to come across them citing this about the iPod upgrade.
 
I've tried to find this countless times since the whole 802.11n thing started. Yet I've never been able to come across them citing this about the iPod upgrade.

So what are you saying? That in Jan07 this was the reason, but in Jan08 it was something else for the exact same thing on a different product?

My god, you really love to argue, eh? Here, it's indirect, but it's there.
http://www.macworld.com/article/131991/2008/02/ipodtouch.html
 
So what are you saying? That in Jan07 this was the reason, but in Jan08 it was something else for the exact same thing on a different product?

My god, you really love to argue, eh? Here, it's indirect, but it's there.
http://www.macworld.com/article/131991/2008/02/ipodtouch.html
Ummm... No, I was saying that even after looking, I've never been able to find that... And there's nothing in that link that states that Apple cited SOx for the charge, it's just an analyst saying that.
 
Sop 97-2

Wow, there are a lot of threads and posts about this.

Apple never said the "accounting reasons" have to do with SOX. They have said several times (including their SEC filing that someone posted here in this thread) that it has to do with SOP 97-2, which is from 5 years before SOX, and deals with recognition of income from software. You can Google it, or do a search here where in one of the threads Arn posted a link to an explanation of the law/ruling/accounting practice, and even mentioned Apple as an example. It has nothing to do with new revenue coming in, it has to do with how the initial revenue for the software is accounted for on the books. (SOX may be indirectly related, because as far as I understand, it makes it more difficult to go back and change previous earnings reports, but I'm sure Apple shareholders wouldn't want them to do that just to stop the whining of the poor touch owners). People here and at engadget and I don't know where else have siad it's because of SOX, but Apple never did.

You don't have to be a fanboy to think that the idea that Apple would just make things up in their SEC reports (referring to SOP 97-2, and the free updates to come for iphone and apple TV) so they can "nickel and dime" ipod touch owners for updates and thereby use "accounting practices" as a lie to those owners is totally absurd.

One poster in one of the many threads pointed out that there is a precedence with Apple charging $4.95 per application for other gens of ipods, so the idea some have that they should charge 99 cents and somehow comply with the law is also probably not feasible.

I have no idea why Apple didn't decide to account for the touch over two years, and I don't know if they regret it. And no one else here does, either. So if you want to say (whine) that they should have, that's fine, but it's too late now, and repeating over and over again that Apple is just making up regulations is silly.

And it's even more ridiculous when we don't know what 2.0 will include, how much will be charged, etc. (and I guess when we do find out, there will be another 1000 posts about the issue. Oh well.) BTW, Safari and iTunes are FREE software -- they aren't accounted for in terms of sales of the software -- so talking about free enhanced updates for Safari in comparison doesn't make any sense. Also, SJ said that apps bought via the app store would be updated AUTOMATICALLY, he didn't say for free. Whether they're free or paid updates would depend on the developer (if they're not publicly traded, they can do whatever they want in accounting for the income) -- that has nothing to do with Apple.
 
Wow, there are a lot of threads and posts about this.

Apple never said the "accounting reasons" have to do with SOX. They have said several times (including their SEC filing that someone posted here in this thread) that it has to do with SOP 97-2, which is from 5 years before SOX, and deals with recognition of income from software. You can Google it, or do a search here where in one of the threads Arn posted a link to an explanation of the law/ruling/accounting practice, and even mentioned Apple as an example. It has nothing to do with new revenue coming in, it has to do with how the initial revenue for the software is accounted for on the books. (SOX may be indirectly related, because as far as I understand, it makes it more difficult to go back and change previous earnings reports, but I'm sure Apple shareholders wouldn't want them to do that just to stop the whining of the poor touch owners). People here and at engadget and I don't know where else have siad it's because of SOX, but Apple never did.

You don't have to be a fanboy to think that the idea that Apple would just make things up in their SEC reports (referring to SOP 97-2, and the free updates to come for iphone and apple TV) so they can "nickel and dime" ipod touch owners for updates and thereby use "accounting practices" as a lie to those owners is totally absurd.

One poster in one of the many threads pointed out that there is a precedence with Apple charging $4.95 per application for other gens of ipods, so the idea some have that they should charge 99 cents and somehow comply with the law is also probably not feasible.

I have no idea why Apple didn't decide to account for the touch over two years, and I don't know if they regret it. And no one else here does, either. So if you want to say (whine) that they should have, that's fine, but it's too late now, and repeating over and over again that Apple is just making up regulations is silly.

And it's even more ridiculous when we don't know what 2.0 will include, how much will be charged, etc. (and I guess when we do find out, there will be another 1000 posts about the issue. Oh well.) BTW, Safari and iTunes are FREE software -- they aren't accounted for in terms of sales of the software -- so talking about free enhanced updates for Safari in comparison doesn't make any sense. Also, SJ said that apps bought via the app store would be updated AUTOMATICALLY, he didn't say for free. Whether they're free or paid updates would depend on the developer (if they're not publicly traded, they can do whatever they want in accounting for the income) -- that has nothing to do with Apple.

So we're going to be forced to buy updates. Great.
 
So we're going to be forced to buy updates. Great.
Dude, nobody is forcing you do do anything...

Just because they didn't say that it was free doesn't mean that they're gonna charge you €7362578236853285679302689 for each update. It's up to the developer, so if you want to complain, take your complaints to them and not Apple.
 
Warning: Long post on iPT vs. iPhone Fees

This is a post I put up in another thread but thought it would be helpful here...

I've seen too many posts regarding the incremental upgrade fee associated with iPT vs. iPhone. I am not going to weigh in on whether the fee is right or wrong but wanted to clarify some of the points around the use of SOX compliance and accounting issues.

All public companies in the US are required to abide by the following:

1. GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). This what allows all companies in the US to have a standardize set of books to operate their business, provide comparisons to other companies, to pay taxes, and meet SEC reporting requirments.
2. SOX (Sarbanes-Oxley). This is a protective measure instituted after ENRON and the other accounting fiascoes that requires all public companies to undergo stringent testing, documentation, and control procedures to ensure that they are meeting GAAP and SEC requirements. It also extends criminal liability to the executive staff to ensure that all the financial reporting is accurate.
3. SEC reporting requirements. All publicly traded companies must file and provide sufficient data to the public in a standardize form for specific transactions (quarterly earnings, annual reports, M&A, etc.).

I'm giving a very high level perspective on this and will not get into any detail on each of these beyond what I've written. There are entire industries built around these topics and you can google and learn more about them.

So onto the Apple iPT vs. iPhone fee...

The main confusion around SOX seems to be that folks on the fora suggests that the Apple iPT fee is caused by SOX. I watched the SDK presentation and Steve Jobs does not mention SOX at all. He mentions, and I'm paraphrasing, that the incremental fees on the iPT were due to "Accounting Issues". Perhaps it was mentioned in another presentation. Either way, based on what SOX is, it is doubtful that SOX is the cause of the fee. SOX may require that Apple demonstrate consistency in how it recognizes revenue for iPods vs. iPhone but is not the main reason for the fees.

Most likely the causes are
1) is the revenue recognition differences in the iPT vs. iPhone.
2) Apple chose to implement an upgrade fee. Again, no comment on the right or wrong on the fee.

On the accounting issues:

As I mentioned above, all public companies are required to disclose their financial information. All this information is available from the SEC at www.sec.gov.

Apple 10-K. This is the annual report and includes the financial results for the entire year.

Apple 10-Q. This is the quarterly filing (forgot which quarter) of Apple's quarterly financial results.

One of the key areas within these reports, besides their financial results, is their disclosure of how they recognize revenue for their products. This is basically the accounting version of what happens when you buy a product from Apple.

Instead of having you guys find this section, I have copied out a section of it for you. This is verbatim from the 10-Q.

Revenue Recognition

Net sales consist primarily of revenue from the sale of hardware, software, music products, digital content, peripherals, and service and support contracts. The Company recognizes revenue for software products (operating system software and applications software), or any product that is considered to be software-related in accordance with the guidance in Emerging Issues Task Force (“EITF”) No. 03-5, Applicability of AICPA Statement of Position 97-2 to Non-software Deliverables in an Arrangement Containing More-Than-Incidental Software, (e.g., Mac computers, iPod portable digital music players and iPhone) pursuant to American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (“AICPA”) Statement of Position (“SOP”) No. 97-2, Software Revenue Recognition, as amended. For products that are not software or software-related, (e.g., digital content sold on the iTunes Store and certain Mac, iPod and iPhone supplies and accessories) the Company recognizes revenue pursuant to SEC Staff Accounting Bulletin (“SAB”) No. 104, Revenue Recognition.

The Company recognizes revenue when persuasive evidence of an arrangement exists, delivery has occurred, the sales price is fixed or determinable, and collection is probable. Product is considered delivered to the customer once it has been shipped, and title and risk of loss have been transferred. For most of the Company’s product sales, these criteria are met at the time the product is shipped. For online sales to individuals, for some sales to education customers in the U.S., and for certain other sales, the Company defers revenue until the customer receives the product because the Company retains a portion of the risk of loss on these sales during transit. If at the outset of an arrangement the Company determines the arrangement fee is not, or is presumed not to be, fixed or determinable, revenue is deferred and subsequently recognized as amounts become due and payable and all other criteria for revenue recognition have been met.

For both Apple TV and iPhone, the Company indicated it may from time-to-time provide future unspecified features and additional software products free of charge to customers. Therefore, sales of Apple TV and iPhone handsets are recognized under subscription accounting in accordance with SOP No. 97-2. The Company recognizes the associated revenue and cost of goods sold on a straight-line basis over the currently estimated 24-month economic lives of these products with any loss recognized at the time of sale. Costs incurred by the Company for engineering, sales, marketing and warranty are expensed as incurred.

As you can see, the accounting for iPhone is very different from the iPod. Thus it is true that Apple needs to recognize revenue differently. Also note that once you implement an accounting principle you can not change it at will. Any change will require a company to restate their current and past earnings (don't remember how far back you have to go tho). Therefore, Apple is not going to make changes on how they plan to account for the iPT or the iPhone.

I hope this clarifies the issues around the whole SOX and accounting for some of you and I hope we can stop this whole discussion on upgrade fee caused by this.

The real issue is whether people feel it is right for Apple to charge a fee to upgrade the iPT. Unfortunately, Apple has chosen this route and as a friend of mine said once, "You can vote with your feet", meaning you can choose to pay or not pay. That choice is yours.

BTW, I do not own an iPT nor do I work for Apple. However, I own 3 ipods (4g 40gb photo, 4gb nano, 5g 30gb video) and am thinking about adding an iPT to use as a PDA.

Thanks for reading!
 
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