I recently encountered one of the most ridiculous news articles that I have ever seen. It was about children born in the US to parents who immigrated to the US. At home, these parents speak only English to their children. The reason given by the parents was they wanted their children to learn English well. It is a well established fact that young children learn languages more easily than older people. By denying their children exposure to the native language, the parents have set back the children's language development more than a decade. And the children grow up with little or no proficiency in the parents language. Most people also agree that being fluent in multiple languages enhances career opportunities. So the children are also denied these opportunities. And the most pathetic part of the article: these same parents are now worried that their children are losing touch with their ancestry and heritage. My question to these parents is: WTF did you think was going to happen??
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Children not speaking parent's native language
- Thread starter VictorTango777
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To me such things don't make a difference. My parents were multi-lingual, and so am I. My wife is not, nor are my children. Our "children" have their own families (not longer live at home).
I thought this thread was going to be about English speaking parents not understanding their English speaking children due to the way young people express themselves these days.
I only speak English. I wish I knew other languages. But I have no aptitude for it.
I only speak English. I wish I knew other languages. But I have no aptitude for it.
I’m not sure if I disagree with what was said in the article, if that’s what it actually said. The only part I’d disagree with is:
“By denying their children exposure to the native language, the parents have set back the children's language development more than a decade.”
Ummm….no, not 10 years!!! 😂 However, knowing and learning 2 (or more) languages truly does help you learn and understand your first language better. Being able to identify the subtle differences between your 1st and 2nd language helps you understand particular grammar points better in both languages.
Also, learning a second language from your parents is a free gift that lasts a lifetime, and all your parents need to do is speak naturally. 🤷🏻♂️ Even if you don’t care about learning it today, you’re probably regret not knowing your ”ancestral” language by the time you reach adulthood.
My parents are from Hong Kong, but I only understand Cantonese. I don’t speak it anymore. However, I understand and speak (very little) Japanese. My wife is Japanese, and both my (young) kids can understand and speak Japanese. The 7 year old can read and write (a little).
Personally, I think this was important to us as parents, and not strictly because of cultural ties. I wish I could still speak Cantonese, and I really wanted my kids to learn Japanese from my wife because why wouldn’t I????
“By denying their children exposure to the native language, the parents have set back the children's language development more than a decade.”
Ummm….no, not 10 years!!! 😂 However, knowing and learning 2 (or more) languages truly does help you learn and understand your first language better. Being able to identify the subtle differences between your 1st and 2nd language helps you understand particular grammar points better in both languages.
Also, learning a second language from your parents is a free gift that lasts a lifetime, and all your parents need to do is speak naturally. 🤷🏻♂️ Even if you don’t care about learning it today, you’re probably regret not knowing your ”ancestral” language by the time you reach adulthood.
My parents are from Hong Kong, but I only understand Cantonese. I don’t speak it anymore. However, I understand and speak (very little) Japanese. My wife is Japanese, and both my (young) kids can understand and speak Japanese. The 7 year old can read and write (a little).
Personally, I think this was important to us as parents, and not strictly because of cultural ties. I wish I could still speak Cantonese, and I really wanted my kids to learn Japanese from my wife because why wouldn’t I????
It's complicated, and I think it's very dependent on the sociocultural climate where those people live.
I've known a few Italian-Americans, second generation, so they were born in the US to Italian parents, or they migrated there when they were little children, they told me their parents didn't want them to speak Italian for fear of discrimination, yet, once they reached adulthood, they wanted to learn Italian and, understandably, they had a hard time and could not master it.
My high school English teacher's family moved to the US when she was 2, she learned Italian when she moved back to Italy to study. One of my English professors in University was born in Canada to an Italian father and a Chilean mother, she can't speak Spanish and she learned Italian when she moved to Italy.
My father has cousins living in France, they were born to Italian parents, but they can't speak Italian at all and never cared to learn it.
I've met people who moved to Germany, Belgium, Switzerland and the Netherlands, all of their children speak Italian fluently, even those born to a non-Italian parent.
So, why? I know that Italians in France didn't face discrimination, in the US, in the past, they faced some discrimination, in Canada they didn't face any discrimination, but they did have rough times in other countries and, I think that's the key motive: when you're feeling discriminated you will tend to withdraw yourself from the group - a society or culture in this case - by which you're feeling discriminated or excluded, and you will look for a group that will make you feel accepted, which will be your own society and culture, you'll hang out only with your compatriots and stick to your culture, and you will try to pass those things on to your children.
But this behavior poses two problems.
First problem is the one reported in the article, it's extremely difficult to master a foreign language when you're older, and I can see that on myself. I'm a linguist and I've started studying English and French when I was 11 years old - I'm 38 now, and still studying - it was easy to learn those languages, I can speak them fluently, retain new words and, if I really put my mind into it, I can conceal my accent but, being a linguist, I've tried to learn new languages in my 20s and 30s (Spanish, German, Norwegian, Romanian, Latin, Japanese) and failed every single time, even though I can quickly grasp how a language works (morphology, phonology, phonetics, syntax) I can reach a basic level in a reasonable time but then it's so hard it's not even worth it.
The second problem is more sociocultural, I work in immigration and see this problem all the time, especially for those people whose parents' culture is vastly different from ours (Maghreb, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, Eastern Europeans, Africans, Chinese, Balkans), they feel they don't belong. Some of them don't even feel Italians, others end up having conflicts with their parents because they reject their parents' culture, some feel they don't belong to either culture. Inside their homes their parents are forcing their own culture on them, outside it's a completely different world and, many times, their parents do have a "it's either us or them" attitude, especially when it comes to traditions, culture, behavior, friends and partners, sometimes even food.
I've known a few Italian-Americans, second generation, so they were born in the US to Italian parents, or they migrated there when they were little children, they told me their parents didn't want them to speak Italian for fear of discrimination, yet, once they reached adulthood, they wanted to learn Italian and, understandably, they had a hard time and could not master it.
My high school English teacher's family moved to the US when she was 2, she learned Italian when she moved back to Italy to study. One of my English professors in University was born in Canada to an Italian father and a Chilean mother, she can't speak Spanish and she learned Italian when she moved to Italy.
My father has cousins living in France, they were born to Italian parents, but they can't speak Italian at all and never cared to learn it.
I've met people who moved to Germany, Belgium, Switzerland and the Netherlands, all of their children speak Italian fluently, even those born to a non-Italian parent.
So, why? I know that Italians in France didn't face discrimination, in the US, in the past, they faced some discrimination, in Canada they didn't face any discrimination, but they did have rough times in other countries and, I think that's the key motive: when you're feeling discriminated you will tend to withdraw yourself from the group - a society or culture in this case - by which you're feeling discriminated or excluded, and you will look for a group that will make you feel accepted, which will be your own society and culture, you'll hang out only with your compatriots and stick to your culture, and you will try to pass those things on to your children.
But this behavior poses two problems.
First problem is the one reported in the article, it's extremely difficult to master a foreign language when you're older, and I can see that on myself. I'm a linguist and I've started studying English and French when I was 11 years old - I'm 38 now, and still studying - it was easy to learn those languages, I can speak them fluently, retain new words and, if I really put my mind into it, I can conceal my accent but, being a linguist, I've tried to learn new languages in my 20s and 30s (Spanish, German, Norwegian, Romanian, Latin, Japanese) and failed every single time, even though I can quickly grasp how a language works (morphology, phonology, phonetics, syntax) I can reach a basic level in a reasonable time but then it's so hard it's not even worth it.
The second problem is more sociocultural, I work in immigration and see this problem all the time, especially for those people whose parents' culture is vastly different from ours (Maghreb, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, Eastern Europeans, Africans, Chinese, Balkans), they feel they don't belong. Some of them don't even feel Italians, others end up having conflicts with their parents because they reject their parents' culture, some feel they don't belong to either culture. Inside their homes their parents are forcing their own culture on them, outside it's a completely different world and, many times, their parents do have a "it's either us or them" attitude, especially when it comes to traditions, culture, behavior, friends and partners, sometimes even food.
My mother-in-law became a citizen some time in the mid-90s, I think shortly after my wife and I got married.
My wife is first generation, she was born here in the US. She speaks Spanish. I am 6th generation Swedish (with a bunch of other cultures mixed in). I know maybe a word or two of Swedish. My ancestors came over some time in the mid-1800s I think. My father and his brothers and sisters were the first of them to finally get out of South Dakota.
Neither of my two kids (19 and 14) know Spanish (or Swedish).
My wife is first generation, she was born here in the US. She speaks Spanish. I am 6th generation Swedish (with a bunch of other cultures mixed in). I know maybe a word or two of Swedish. My ancestors came over some time in the mid-1800s I think. My father and his brothers and sisters were the first of them to finally get out of South Dakota.
Neither of my two kids (19 and 14) know Spanish (or Swedish).
Millions of Europeans including many from the European and Russian countries and yet only a very small percentage speak those language, natively.
In regards to what is highlighted, the US seems to be putting great effort into erasing, changing and demonizing the history of our ancestors. We own how the future will be shaped or interpreted whether it is language or history
Same here. I can read Spanish functionally, and speak enough to get my point across, but I can't listen to it and have any clue what is being said to me.
But since we are moving to AZ in a couple of months, I may have to try one of the newer systems like Babbel.
??????
I've lived in Phoenix for over 22 years. My children were born here; a rare thing in Arizona to meet someone actually born in Arizona. While Spanish is spoken, most people here speak English. And that includes Spanish speaking people.
If you learn Spanish it's going to be because you want to, not because it's necessary in Arizona.
I rarely see it happen like this. It’s always more of the vase that the children speak the local language way better than their parents due to school and friends. And they often have to help their parents in learning the language or by translating it for them.
In the case of English I can sort of understand because it’s such a world language. But for people moving or fleeing to other countries like in Europe a lot of them have no background knowledge in the local language.
In the case of English I can sort of understand because it’s such a world language. But for people moving or fleeing to other countries like in Europe a lot of them have no background knowledge in the local language.
Sorry if I'm butting in but, as a linguist, allow me to discourage you from wasting your time on apps like Babbel and Duolingo.
If you want to learn a language get a textbook with its own workbook, just check the books recommended for college or high school, usually for European universities you can find the full bibliography for each course, you find the recommended bibliography for Spanish classes, and get yourself a good book, possibly bilingual, or at least a grammar book written in English, and then use that to learn, add to the mix listening to national radio stations or watching TV, especially the news or anything news&talk, then you can just find people looking for language exchange on the internet.
Reaching ILR Level 1, or even Level 2, shouldn't be that hard to accomplish on your own.
Yes, it's almost always like you said.
As for the second part, something interesting happens. When the people that once fled and got into another country as asylum seekers have children in the country that granted them documents, or just are able to have their families transfer to said country, they will encourage their children to learn the local language as fast as they can, so that the children won't have to go through the same hardships their parents had to face, many of them, while in the process of preparing the documents for family reunification, make their children take language classes in their native country, so that they can have an edge once they are in the new country.
That's very interesting. I am sure that applies more where we are moving (Cottonwood) as it seems to have a lot of retirees.
More along the lines of want to.
No problem. My wife is a linguist. She can pick up any language very quickly. Not only languages, but also accents and affects. Sometimes I have to remind her because she doesn't want to offend people, but a pale white girl talking to a Jamaican using their accent could be taken wrong. When she lived in France, the locals knew she wasn't French, but couldn't tell where she was from.
Thanks for the tip.
A lot of Arizona residents are transplants from other states. My wife and I were both born in California. She lived there up until 2000. I was there for 20 years (1980 to 2000) and before that had lived in Houston, Tx and Vancouver, Wa.
You may find actual bona fide Arizonans in Cottonwood as older residents are more likely to have been born there before migration from other states became a big thing.
My wife and I got out of SoCal in 2000, but that was at least a decade before people started to really flee California. Now it's accelerated and coming from multiple states. Lots of California, Texas, Nevada, New York, Utah and Illinois plates around here and the traffic has become insane everywhere.
The interesting thing is that Canadian plates (Snowbirds) used to dominate, but I haven't seen very many of those in the last couple years. Probably COVID related.
Yeah, my kids pull a Bruce Willis' Fifth Element quote whenever my wife speaks to them in her native tongue.
"Whoa, lady, I only speak two languages: English and Bad English."😁
I'm multiligual and my wife is bilingual. We absolute want our kids to learn more than just English, if for no other reason is so they can talk with their grandparents and older adults who never learned English. My kids were introducted to English in school and spoke our native language up until pre-school. They've lost fluency in their native language, but at least can still understand and speak it🥳...at a 4 year old level.😑
There is a woman that I know (a relative of one of my sisters in law) who has been married to a very nice Swedish man for quite a lot of years. She was born and lived in one of the tropical islands, and then lived in NY for a few years by the time she met her future husband, who at the time was at a medical school in NY (both are MDs). Anyway, her native language was Spanish, but learned English in NY in her teens. Later they married and lived in Sweden. Both speak Swedish, Spanish, English, and probably Italian. Teaching a language at home is fine, but not required. All depends on the individual family.
That said, the fastest way to learn to speak a language is for one to immerse oneself in it. Grammar can be learned from books or a teacher, something that can be done later. For example, when I immigrated to the US I only knew a few English words such as window, door, water, food, and so on. But since I had no choice but to work part-time and since only English was spoken at work, I learned to speak and understand English within a few months. However, for some reason I developed a good understanding of "word roots" of latin and other romantic languages during my HS years, so I could figure the meaning of a good portion of the written English words, and this made it easier for me to learn grammar while attending school in the US.
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The situation with those parents that I read about seems to be a case of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". It is difficult for me to feel sympathetic to those parents. It was well within the parents power to make sure their children were exposed to the language during their most receptive years. As someone previously mentioned, all the parents had to do was speak naturally. Instead, they made a deliberate decision not to. So the children had no reason to feel connected to their heritage. And now these parents are worried?
Yup. It's probably the same "parents" who are blaming the younger generations for xyz while they themselves are doing the same xyz.
It's happening a lot in my country as well, but mostly due to many parents sending their kids to international schools that use English heavily vs our own native language. Ironically, in my country, more and more parents are losing communications and relationships with their children since while the children are using English, the parents themselves cannot speak/barely speak English.
I kinda like what's being done in countries like Singapore, where they are forcing you to learn your "mother language" in school (the choices were Malay, Mandarin, or Tamil) aside from the primarily used English.
My wife's first language (as I mentioned) is Spanish. So, technically I could have 'immersion', but in reality that's not going to happen. My wife has neither the time nor patience to consistently speak nothing but Spanish around me or my kids. She will want to get her point across and to do that it's going to mean English. I have not resisted learning it per se, but in the the 28 years I've known her I haven't picked up much either. Most of what I may or may not know would be considered slang and not proper Spanish words.
What always irritated me about Spanish (classes in high school) was all the conjugation. You need a handful of words to say the thing you'd say in English with one word. With Spanish it all depends on gender and past, present or future tense. English just uses past, present or future tense and in some cases the word is the same.
OTOH, I've also come to understand over time the difficulty that non-native English speakers have in learning English. It's my first language, so I grew up with all the words, the senses, the context, tone, etc. But English (at least American English) is a mishmash of borrowed words. It's easy to see why it's so hard to learn if you didn't grow up with it.
And yet, one of my wife's complaints to me when there are misunderstandings is "English is YOUR first language!!!"
My wife is first generation American. She grew up in East LA with an absent father and a disturbed mother who disappeared for long stretches at a time. When she returned, she did strange things like waking kids up at 3am to have them clean house for no reason. And that's when she was sober.
I grew up five to six generations removed from a Swedish heritage my father had no clue about and English/Irish heritage my mother wasn't interested in. I got the emotional abuse my wife got physically.
Spanish or English there was no 'culture' we cared to pass off to our kids, other than the one of 'normality' we tried to create for them.
My wife’s father was South Texan Hispanic, when he went to school as a child he was punished, receiving corporal punishment for not knowing English. Btw, he was not an immigrant, having a family history in the area since before the Texas revolution. As a consequence, he did not teach his children Spanish, specifically because he viewed that as a hinderance to acceptance. All his children are not happy with this decision, although 2 of her siblings learned Spanish by their own effort.
So I understand the reason, whether it is considered valid or not. These days being bilingual is a distinct advantage, although growing up in the USA as a native (although the term is arguable if you are not Native American
) there is hardly any pressure to learn a second language as compared to living in Europe, as I imagine it.
I would have though the opposite. I could see the kids going" we're in trouble now, mom is breaking out the Spanish". Kind of like I knew I was in trouble when mom broke out my middle name. 😂
Nah, she doesn't revert to Spanish when she gets mad. She just gets in your face and is very clear about what has upset her or what she thinks about you (because you upset her).
We haven't had to discipline much. My son is generally good and not wanting to disappoint us, so just being stern went a long way. My daughter is like me, so yelling and pushing her simply makes her dig in and resist. I want compliance, not malicious compliance like I used to hammer my father with. So I have to deal with her in other ways.
I mainly hear Spanish from my wife when she's talking to someone else who doesn't know English very well.
Nah. They'd know when Mom reaches for La Chancla™.😂
These days being bilingual is a distinct advantage, although growing up in the USA as a native (although the term is arguable if you are not Native American
If you live in Texas, it's beneficial to understand Spanish for basic communication. Learning 5% of a language is usually enough to come to an understand with a bit of charades.😉 I manage with one or two Spanish words and a bit of gesturing.💁♂️🙅♂️🤷♂️
I pity the kids today. You can’t just go outside and play for hours with your neighbor anymore. And with that the learning of the neighborhood language.