Choosing a display?

Discussion in 'Mac Accessories' started by .JahJahwarrior., Jan 6, 2008.

  1. .JahJahwarrior. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    #1
    I am interested in getting a bigger monitor. I believe I am using a 17" LCD, from Westinghouse. I know it's an LCD from Westinghouse, and I'm fairly certain it's a 17". It's a square. I want a rectangle :) My brother got, what I believe is a 22" Samsung, and it was very nice to use over the break, when I had to use his PC for UFRaw.

    So, I'm thinking about getting a bigger, better monitor for my macbook. But here I see all sorts of people splitting hairs over exactly which letter of the alphabet is last on their monitor, and whatnot, based on what LCD panel is in it.

    Is there a list somewhere of monitors that shows what is crap and what is not? I'd like the cheapest thing I can find that isn't a piece of junk. I am a photographer, so a good monitor is important, but whatever it is will probably be on par with this two year old Westinghouse, right? If I could figure out which exact model number from this or that brand I want, (you know, the XYZ2000 or the XYC2000, even though both are called the same thing on the box?) I'm perfectly willing to buy used.

    Basically, where is the "idiots guide to monitor purchases" ?
     
  2. bjett92 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Location:
    Indy, IN
    #2
    Well can you wait a few days. It's rumored that apple might update their cinema displays at MW. I would hold off until then to see if apple brings out anything.

    A lot of people are fans of dell and HP monitors. I personally am looking to buy one for my MacBook as well, but I'm waiting until MW for a cinema display.
     
  3. timestamp macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    #3
    If you are a photographer you want to go with at least a modern PVA panel and more so an IPS panel if you are serious.

    Here is a nice database: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/, scroll down to the monitor panel search. They also have guides as well.

    Here is a decent breakdown of LCD tech: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1039222

    At this point I would avoid Apples offerings as the panels are out of date. Unless you are in a hurry I would wait it out for awhile. CES is going on this week and Macworld is coming shortly. We will definitely see some new LCDs announced this week and maybe an ACD update at MWSF, I am hoping for one at least!
     
  4. dante@sisna.com macrumors 6502a

    dante@sisna.com

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    #4
    Apple's panels are NOT technologically out of date, in fact, they are superior to most of the displays priced at or below their print point. All ACD's use high refined S-IPS panels with Color Look Up tables that are tuned to SWOP Certification.

    These are the displays if you are a graphic artist or pro photographer.

    Now in terms of FEATURES, such as HDCP, Card Readers, USB Port Replication, Adjustable Stands, these display do LACK much in terms of the competition.

    Apple will probably update these ACD's soon, but I don't expect price cuts. I expect Apple to introduce a lower quality consumer display using PVA technology more comparable to Dell's, Samsung's and HP's.

    I own a LOT of displays in my studio: My most recent is a STUNNING HP LP3065 -- this is a 30" S-IPS panel that is the first superior 30" to the Apple ACD.
     
  5. amik macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    #5
    I'm looking at the LP 3065 as well as the Samsung 305T and the Dell 3007wfp. Do you feel like the backlighting is even across the LP 3065?

    Comparison reviews seem to indicate the 305T has more even backlighting and is more color accurate, whereas the LP3065 seems to be more somewhat more vibrant. Obviously this could probably be changed with decent calibration, but I'm just curious as to your experience and any comparisions you have made.

    Thanks.
     
  6. timestamp macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    #6
    You are kidding right? I somehow knew you would come in and spread this FUD. Apple is using older S-IPS panels. There are better displays to be had using these newer panels from LG. They are:

    20": NEC LCD20WMGX2 using the latest LG AS-IPS LM201WE2

    23": Dead. LG isn't making 23" IPS panels anymore.

    24": Apples own 24" iMac uses an H-IPS panel. As does the NEC LCD2490WUXi both have the LM240WU2 panel.

    30": LG has two newer IPS panels with better specs than the current 30" ACD. Dell is using the LM300WQ5 in their new 3008WFP. LG also has the
    LM300WQ3, which also has better specs than the current 30" ACD which is using the LM300W01.

    HP is also using the LM300WQ1, a newer panel than the Apple 30" which is why it superior. You pretend as if it is some sort of feat for HP to have done it. See what happens when NEWER tech is used. Your statement about HP is proof that Apple is behind.

    http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeContain/jsp/eng/prd/prd200_j_e.jsp

    I know you think you are the resident panel guru, but what you are saying is absolute bullocks. The panels in the current ACDs are very very old. As I just pointed out to you, they are very technologically out of date.

    And your talk of calibrated LUTs. This is a feature you grossly overstate. When Apple starts putting in 12-bit LUTs like NEC does, we can talk. The fact of the matter is ACDs are outdated and are only good at looking pretty.

    Sure pricewise they may be OK because they use IPS panels, but that is because they have been pushing the same panels for a long time. The least they can do is drop the price if they are going to give us the same panels over and over again.

    Now please, tell me how my statements are incorrect. I expected more from you in regards to your knowledge, but you are clearly only good at pushing around buzz words to make yourself seem intelligent in this area. Your lack of research into newer panels suggests otherwise. And I hope people take note.
     
  7. dante@sisna.com macrumors 6502a

    dante@sisna.com

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    #7
    The backlighting is dead on consistent. This monitor is vibrant and calibrates well. Color is off compared to ACD 30" for SWOP usage but for web or broadcast development and video this HP is SPECTACULAR.

    I have no experience with the 305T but I have read pro and con reviews but only one independent user who picked it over it over the LP3065. Ananadtec likes the LP3065. I take their view over a single users anyday.

    Check out their review: http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2950&p=9
     
  8. dante@sisna.com macrumors 6502a

    dante@sisna.com

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    #8
    Man, I am not gonna dance with a Stat Junkie like you who obviously has little real world understanding as to how "new" technology relates to color and the management of color for Print, Video, and Web Development.

    I have many years experience -- like how about 20 -- in understanding how "new" versus "old" technology affects color gamut and color consistency.

    This is important when one considers what one is going to use a monitor for.

    A print color gamut is far different from a web color gamut and from an NTSC color gamut. For the latter two, you then have to compare how operating systems and browsers affect color. And I am not just talking about colors your eye can see -- I am also talking about 1) Brightness, 2) Contrast, 3) Screen Cast (ie gloss/matte), 4) On-Screen Controls or lack of.

    You are great at citing links to "new" IPS panels. What you do not understand, rather what you don't have the experience and depth of knowledge to discuss properly, is HOW these new panels and their "new" features affect things like gamut and calibration, for starters.

    When I said Apple's displays were state-of-the-art, I meant it. I still do. An IPS panel is superior -- in an old or new iteration -- to the majority of lower cost TN, and PVA/MVA panels. You are just looking for a fight. Reread your original post, and your second post -- you yourself recommend an S-IPS panel. I merely responded that Apple's ACD's were still in vouge for SWOP work (lookup and learn what SWOP means). Period. I am not going to invest the time to teach you why ACD's are still relevant. Do your own work. It involves viewing angle, calibration, brightness, contrast ratio, and consistency, just for starters. This link will help you out.

    http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/lcd-panel-types.php

    Next. You cannot have a honest discussion of monitors without talking about Lookup Tables and how they relate to colorsync and the operating system--you brushing aside my reference to this area only indicates your lack of depth in understanding how gamut, drivers, and color management and profiles work. And how VITALLY important this really is to designers. And how Apple is the leader in out-of-the box calibration (mean without using after-market calibration) among low to mid-range monitors. For example, the Color Profile on the HP LP3065 is absolutely terrible despite it being "newer."

    Finally, How do you know -- that I did not know -- this HP LP3065 uses a newer panel? Wrong, of course, I did. I have three 30" displays in my studio. I purchased each one for a specific purpose. The ACD 30" is our print monitor. The Dell our base web testing monitor. The HP our broadcast monitor. AND I CLEARLY said that HP was SUPERIOR to the ACD. I did not act in Shock (how in the heck did you INFER that?) -- I was making a point about how great and SUPERIOR this monitor is with my use of caps -- that's pretty clear!

    The HP has extreme brightness and contrast ratio and a very high gamut.

    However, it does not nearly calibrate as well as the ACD. After calibration the NEW HP has a higher SWOP color Delta E than the ACD. New Technology is not always better. But don't take my word for it. Learn from this Anandtech article why NEWER S-IPS panels do not calibrate as well as older ones (see the the section on "calibrated results"
    http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2950
    *Guess What?
    Our ACD 23 and 30" have LOWER Delta E than the NEWER S-IPS panels you spout on about. Learn, Learn, Learn.

    Here is a link form a popular photography site that talks a bit about why the S-IPS panel in the ACD (Phillps LM300201) is superior to the NEWER one used in the Samsung 305T IN THE AREAS OF PHOTOGRAPHY.

    http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=707602

    Here is a link to the Godfather of all monitors, Karl Lang, to help you get started in learning that there is more to evaluating monitor technology that spouting off about something being "new" and then assuming "better."

    This article is a few years old but the section on Gamut, Bits and LUTS is VERY valid right now, today:
    http://www.outbackphoto.com/tforum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=1700

    Sure NEC uses 12bit Luts, so does EIZO -- BUT I was very clear in my initial response to you that I was talking about monitors priced at or below the ACD's -- Have you priced a 12bit IPS NEC or EIZO lately? Thought so. And then there is the entire thing about the Mac OS and Photoshop having to interpolate up to those 12bit LUTs. Not all users are sophisticated enough to calibrate monitors of that complexity. I ask you, for THAT user are the 12bit NEC's really better from a highly tuned ACD 23 or 30? Not in my studio. No stat junkies allowed to achieve greatness here.

    Your assumption of new IPS panels being better, begs a lot of questions that have to be answered first: Like 1) Intended Use, 2) Lighting Conditions, 3) SWOP Certification Legal Concerns for Graphic Artists, Printers and Photographers, 4) Pixel Response, 5) Scaling and Resolution, 6) HDCP needs, and more. A lot of new monitors are made for gamers, and video, Not for Print and web.

    When I responded to this user's general question about ACD versus others, I was comparing the ACD's to cheaper PVA, MVA and TN panels not to related IPS panels. Next time I will be more specific. I responded to your likewise general and wrong claim that ACD's were out of date. The user was obviously looking at lower end monitors from his post.

    Your response is just as guilty of being too general, as was my response, in making an uninformed claim that Apple Displays are "outdated."

    I NEVER defend Apple technology on Price -- I agree with you that they have been pushing an overly focused product line: If you have REALLY been reading my posts on monitors you would know that I have been calling for Apple to FORK its display line into 1) consumer 2) Print Pro and 3) Web/Broadcast.

    My response was a perfectly general and acceptable response to your general and imprecise scalding! You are looking for a fight.

    Please -- spend some time in a studio -- any studio -- be it Print, Photo, Web, or Broadcast. Actually do some real work, deliverable work, to color critical clients, then come back and add to this discourse.
    Repeat and Return.
     
  9. timestamp macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    #9
    It seems you are only one making assumptions. Both on my experience and knowledge. I enjoy your claims of me seeking a fight as you boldly assert pop shots at me with things such as, ASSumption. Please. Grow up little boy. :rolleyes:

    When I get a chance I will respond to your post. For now it is sleepy time.
     
  10. dante@sisna.com macrumors 6502a

    dante@sisna.com

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    #10
    You fired the first shot.

    My Post is Clear and Detailed.

    I am not going to fight with you on this.

    I'll let others on the forum choose weather or not they want to read my stuff.
     
  11. tersono macrumors 68000

    tersono

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #11
    Not wanting to tread on any toes, but all arguments aside that is one of the best posts I've ever read with regard to correct understanding of the pros and cons of modern display technologies. Well said, that man!
     
  12. dante@sisna.com macrumors 6502a

    dante@sisna.com

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    #12
    I am sorry.

    I apologize for Capitalizing the "ASS" in assumption.

    I was wrong to do this. I am sorry.

    I was frustrated at what I perceived to be pretty caustic tone in your response to my very general post to an inexperienced user who plain and simply asked for the IDOT's GUIDE to selecting a monitor.

    He indicated he was a photographer. I am a photographer and producer of Print, Web, Animation, and Video Content and Sites. My brother is a life-long professional photographer in the magazine industry. I work with many other professional photographers in our print, web, animation and broadcast production endeavors. I was merely correcting what I consider to be a general error in your post via my response. I was pretty clear I was speaking to SWOP standards and at certain price points.

    Your response directly attacked my credibility and made a lot of assumptions regarding a very complex topic.

    I stand by this for sure.

    I was wrong for capitalizing "ASS," in assumption.

    I have removed this from my post and am sorry.

    I apologize to you, Timestamp. I take responsibility for my error in judgement. I lost my awareness for a bit while typing and should not have acted out on my frustration with this bad behavior. I probably learned that behavior from my family, those expressive folks with that East Coast brashness and sarcasm.

    Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

    D
     
  13. pprior macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    #13
    I for one find your perspective invaluable! As a photographer, my needs may be very different from those doing other tasks. Please keep helping!

    I'm still on the fence about a 30" monitor. I have 2 x 21" dells but they are several years old. I'm waiting to see whether a new 30" ACD is announced soon. I read your posts with interest.
     
  14. wallaby macrumors 6502

    wallaby

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Location:
    Iowa
    #14
    Personally, I just can't wait for Apple to release some new Cinema Displays so I can snag an old one for a lower price. :eek:
     
  15. supercooled macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    #15
    I'm not even qualified to be called an amateur because I'm that GREEN! Dante does seem very astute; he's convinced me with all the jargon and acronyms.

    FWIW, the Canadian Apple store did reduce the 30" from $2,099 to $1,799. It's still a high premium. The new Dell appears to be more and more attractive to me since I do plan on using it as an entertainment hub as well. Quite torn but we'll see what comes out of Tuesday's event.
     
  16. Chris F macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    #16
    For consumer use the new 3008WFP is vastly superior to the Apple 30" monitor.

    I dearly hope Apple has been working on introducing a new 30" model integrating a scalar chip that still retains all the SWOP stuff the AV/photo/print guys need.

    Guess we will find out next week.
     
  17. Santabean2000 macrumors 68000

    Santabean2000

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    #17
    Burned...
     
  18. mastersoft macrumors member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2007
    #18
    HP LP3065 is a BAD MONITOR

    in 3 month i change 2 monitors...first monitor have IDENTICAL problems with actual . I think is
    factory PROBLEM. Actual monitor died after 2 days of normal use.


    they are manufactured in july, octomber 2008



    DO NOT BUY HP LP3065 ....
     

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