The MBP is easily upgradeable but no matter how much you spend the screen will still look like a MBP and that is not cool.
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cMBP is the still the best IMHO
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Businesses sell things at a loss or at cost all the time for various reasons. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the goals of modern businesses. For example Amazon is essentially a non-profit company.
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Amazon has been in business to get market share, and expand their company for the last 10 years.
Likewise Apple knows that they will not continue selling MacBooks if they price themselves out of the market by charging too much for the rMBP, and they don't want to lose customers by not innovating, so they improved the cMBP and they charged a lower markup than the COST of the added improvements to them.
That that is simply not true:
512GB Blade SSD rMBP Upgrade: $300
512GB 2.5" SSD cMBP Upgrade: $700
512GB Blade SSD Cost: $575 (internet price cheaper third party equivalent)
512GB 2.5" SSD Cost: $380 (internet price cheaper third party equivalent)
rMBP 512GB SSD Upgrade Markup: -48%
cMBP 512GB SSD Upgrade Markup: +84%
So stating a newer more desirable machine has a better resale value seems dubious to you. That seems delusional, but I've owned several rMBP's and several cMBP's this last year and re-sold most of them by this point. The resale after a year on an upgraded rMBP was -15%, the resale on an upgraded cMBP was -30%.
Your pointless criticism was poor.
Like I said, the rMBP is not overpriced when compared to the cMBP, it is underpriced because it is a better deal from multiple standpoints, and that's how Apple wants it because they are aggressivly selling the newer laptop.
1. Look at Apple's cash balance. You don't get that with loss leaders.
2. Base rMBP + 16GB RAM + 512GB SSD + Superdrive + GigE adapter + FW800 adapter = $2836
Base uMBP + 16GB RAM - $25 for OEM RAM + 500GB 840 - $50 for OEM HDD = $2161
That's a whopping $675 more (not including the government theft on your purchase) for the retina screen, 512MB of vRAM, 1 TB port, 1 HDMI port, and -1lb.
Point stands that it's definitely not cheaper to upgrade the rMBP via Apple than the uMBP yourself - but everyone already knew that claiming it is was ridiculous.
3. Just because you couldn't sell your cMBP on properly doesn't provide proof that resale is generally lower. Though I suspect that if you did buy your upgrades from Apple, you would take a significantly bigger hit on the uMBP because there are cheaper upgrade alternatives. Base vs. base I suspect the bigger absolute hit is on the rMBP by now, probably very close on a percentage basis.
Also remember, just because something is newer and more desirable doesn't mean that it will hold its value better. The new for 2014 Mercedes S-class will depreciate more rapidly than a Toyota Prius.
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Unless it doesn't do what you require.
I can stick 16 gigs of RAM (and likely 32GB when 16GB DDR3 DIMMs are available - the chipset supports up to 32 gigs) and a terabyte of storage in my cMBP for 250 bucks.
Sure the rMBP screen is nice, and the fans aren't as annoying, but that's where it ends really.
I'm really not quite sure what you're trying to argue. That Apple is a profitable company therefore they cannot be giving you a very good deal on additional features on top of their existing product? Do you think Apple's suppliers are just giving them a 3k screen for free while pretending to charge them hundreds of dollars for it in some sort of conspiracy? It's a known fact that the additional cost of the retina MacBook is close to what Apple pays for the additional parts.
Ok. You're comparing a computer with a 2.3Ghz processor, a 512MB video card, and a slow SSD, to a computer that has a 2.4Ghz processor, 1GB of ram and a 50% faster SSD, and claiming the slower one is cheaper - well obviously.
And it's advisable to keep those original parts, which are unlikley to result in even half your claimed profit, for the warranty.
This is a misleading and uneven comparison.
I NEVER said it was cheaper to upgrade the rMBP via Apple than the cMBP yourself. I said that Apple was selling the upgrades on the rMBP below what it would cost you to do the upgrades, TO THE rMBP if you could. Meaning that the rMBP upgrades have little to no markup - unlike the cMBP upgrades which are heavily marked up. This was to point out that the rMBP provided more value for money with higher specs, which it does.
Even though I wasn't making the comparison you were making let's try revising your comparison to being reasonable:
2.7Ghz/16GB/512GB/1gb 650mx rMBP (Apple Store) + Superdrive/FW800/Ethernet (from reputable seller at a discount) = $2903
2.7Ghz/4GB/500GB/1gb 650mx cMBP (Apple Store) + 512GB 840 Pro + 16GB 1600mhz Ram (reputable discount seller) = $2895
The rMBP is $8 more expensive at comparable specs even when comparing DIY upgrades.
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I'm really not quite sure what you're trying to argue. That Apple is a profitable company therefore they cannot be giving you a very good deal on additional features on top of their existing product? Do you think Apple's suppliers are just giving them a 3k screen for free while pretending to charge them hundreds of dollars for it in some sort of conspiracy? It's a known fact that the additional cost of the retina MacBook is close to what Apple pays for the additional parts.
Ok. You're comparing a computer with a 2.3Ghz processor, a 512MB video card, and a slow SSD, to a computer that has a 2.4Ghz processor, 1GB of ram and a 50% faster SSD, and claiming the slower one is cheaper - well obviously.
And it's advisable to keep those original parts, which are unlikley to result in even half your claimed profit, for the warranty.
This is a misleading and uneven comparison.
I NEVER said it was cheaper to upgrade the rMBP via Apple than the cMBP yourself. I said that Apple was selling the upgrades on the rMBP below what it would cost you to do the upgrades, TO THE rMBP if you could. Meaning that the rMBP upgrades have little to no markup - unlike the cMBP upgrades which are heavily marked up. This was to point out that the rMBP provided more value for money with higher specs, which it does.
Even though I wasn't making the comparison you were making let's try revising your comparison to being reasonable:
2.7Ghz/16GB/512GB/1gb 650mx rMBP (Apple Store) + Superdrive/FW800/Ethernet (from reputable seller at a discount) = $2903
2.7Ghz/4GB/500GB/1gb 650mx cMBP (Apple Store) + 512GB 840 Pro + 16GB 1600mhz Ram (reputable discount seller) = $2895
The rMBP is $8 more expensive at comparable specs even when comparing DIY upgrades.
1. I'm just pointing out that Apple doesn't give away product for free or at less than cost as a practice, and I seriously doubt that they are doing so with the Retina line. It's likely one of their higher margin computers.
2. The difference between the base rMBP and uMBP processor speed is a whopping .1Ghz, which is meaningless in practice. The vRAM differecne will also likely be irrelevant as the rMBP has to drive many more pixels with the same video processor (albeit slightly overclocked). Finally, the rMBP SSD is basically the equivalent of the Sammy 830, which is roughly performance equivalent with the 840 which replaced it. The 840 Pro is faster than both the 830 and it's rMBP OEM counterpart. The two base computers with the upgrades in my example are about as close as you can get in spec without paying Apple's exorbitant "upgrade" prices.
3. From your original post: "...with most of the upgrades costing LESS than it would cost you to do them yourself instead of being heavily marked up."
Seems to me that's a claim that it's cheaper to buy an upgraded rMBP from Apple than to upgrade a uMBP yourself.
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Those who are saying that the rMBP is not overpriced have bought into Apple's non-user-upgradeable scheme. cMBP will always be a better value because you can do the RAM and SSD/HDD upgrades yourself. Additionally, cMBP's flexibility in upgrading the optical drive with a 2nd hard drive will mean it can outperform (Raid 0 SSD's) or have better storage (Fusion Drive) than an rMBP, at a fraction of the cost.
After reading this thread.
I love both my cmbp and rmbp.
But one thing that im very concerned is the speakers qualities.
Some people here said that rmbp's speakers are way better than cmbp... Is it correct?
I have $1800 in my pocket to spend for a new laptop.
Im trying to decide which one i should go for.
And i want 15" so Air is not for me.
I love both my cmbp and rmbp.
But one thing that im very concerned is the speakers qualities.
Some people here said that rmbp's speakers are way better than cmbp... Is it correct?
I have $1800 in my pocket to spend for a new laptop.
Im trying to decide which one i should go for.
And i want 15" so Air is not for me.
IMO the best bang for buck/value with Mac is the Air model, the price is just right along with vanilla 13mbp.
Im thinking about moving to a 15rMBP cause i need a bigger laptop this days and i dont find it "way" overpriced, if you compare the specs with the cmbp the difference is not that big BUT i would much prefer a cmbp with a retina screen so i can upgrade in the future.
Im thinking about moving to a 15rMBP cause i need a bigger laptop this days and i dont find it "way" overpriced, if you compare the specs with the cmbp the difference is not that big
BUT i would much prefer a cmbp with a retina screen so i can upgrade in the future.I have both, and it actually seems that the Thuderbolt --> GiE connection is a stable connection. The MacBook Pro with Retina Display does have a slightly different feel on the keyboard, which may be a little better to some. So far no disappointments. They are spec'ed exactly the same except the Standard MacBook Pro has 8GB.
I will take my hi-resolution antiglare display over any Retina model every day of the week.
I'm loving the unbiased cherry picking here
I'm gald you liked them.
The idea was to stimulate some responses to what others thought were the major leaps in technology in the rMBP.
Thinness is a result of removing features such as the wired 1Gb/s ethernet (which is the tallest port on the side of the cMBP), removing Firewire 800 (the second tallest port), removing the DVD drive, removing the RAM sockets and removing the standard internal SATA interface.
The worst is the soldered in RAM. With the 15" rMBP, if you're not sure whether you might need less than 8GB or more, you'd better get 16GB from day one. But that's not so bad, with the 13" rMBP, if you need more then 8GB, you don't even have an upgrade option when you buy, so you'd need to get the cMBP or the 15" rMBP, even if you didn't need the bigger display.
The same is true for the SSD where there is a much greater range of upgrade options with a standard SATA interface.
In the current generation of rMBP, you get a very nice display, but the thinness comes from taking things away, not from improved technology.
But like I mentioned before, if they introduce a Haswell rMBP with Iris Pro 5200 graphics and PCIe SSD, then I'd have to agree those are a significant technological leap.
Other than needing to use one of the TB interfaces for ethernet or fw 800 adapters, the other reason people might need 2 TB ports, is that they have reached the 6 TB devices per TB chain limit and need to add more. I'm not sure how many people are having this problem...
Yes, the 13" rMBP seems to be the weakest part of the line up. Display is nice, but obviously not as nice as the 15" rMBP and no 16GB RAM upgrade option. Not even as thin as the 15" rMBP. It seems to be caught in the middle with the new Haswell MBA and the old 13" cMBP offering better options for some people. I wonder what the sales volumes are like between the 13" rMBP and the other 13" options.
Haven't looked closely at the current 15" prices - certainly not the UK prices. In New Zealand the difference between base model 15"cMBP and base model 15" rMBP is NZD $600. You can buy a lot of third party RAM and SSD for that money.
Thanks for the feedback on the Thuderbolt -> GiE adapter. Do they hold in place well and not want to move at the wrong moment? Back in the day when we used to use laptops with 3com pcmcia ethernet adapters (google if you don't know the ones I mean), it seemed like the little cable piece was always giving problems. Either it was breaking, not holding in place properly, perhaps you would loose it when you needed it most, or in some sites, there were other engineering staff who would "borrow" things like that and forget to return them.
Most of us were very happy when notebooks with built in ethernet became the norm.
Comparing the base model isnt a fair comparison. The reason people think the rMBP is overpriced is because their "base model" is actually itself a very powerful model.
And since you cannot upgrade the processor or graphics in a macbook, you would have to compare the prices of equally matched CPU and GPUs. Comparing everything else at base model, but equaling the CPU and GPU, the price difference is $50. [http://i43.tinypic.com/11rfaeh.png] Just because Apple doesnt offer a low-end model of the rMBP doesnt make it overpriced. For the internal components within the rMBP, it is priced no differently then a cMBP with the same components.
Everyone always says this, but if you look around it really just doesn't hold up. Apple's biggest flaw is that that they really don't sell a low end laptop. But if you shop around and find other laptops with similar specs and construction the prices are pretty much spot on.
I do agree though that the best value in Apple products are the refurbs.
The comparison you make is fine if you think you need that particular model, or that the clock speed difference (2.3 vs 2.4GHz) in the base model is important. In the page I'm looking at, both base models are listed as having NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M, so not sure what you mean about "equally matched CPU and GPUs". Unless you refer to more video RAM in the base Retina... but you'd be more likely to need more when you have more pixels in the display, wouldn't you?
But even if I were to accept your idea that we should only compare the 15" 2.7GHz i7 models and I take the base 15" cMBP model on the NZ apple site and bump the CPU to 2.7GHz, that brings me up from NZD $2,699.00 (base 15" model) to NZD $3,419.00 which is a long way short of the NZD $4,199.00 for the 15" rMBP with 2.7GHz i17.
My prices are from here:
http://store.apple.com/nz/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro
Im seeing the price of the rMBP at NZD $3,438.01 - http://i42.tinypic.com/2jc8x08.png
I see what you did there, took the base cMBP and comparing it to the high end model for the rMBP. No, take the base of BOTH models (hence the 2.4 GHZ rMBP, and select the 2.7 GHz upgrade)
That's a fact! My wife and I bought a 13" rMBP last week, and love it. I thought about taking advantage of the lower priced cMBP on sale at BB, but when we looked at text on its screen yesterday, it was awful compared to the retina display...really awful. That's the exact same reason I returned an ipad mini for an ipad 4. Both the mini and cMBP are actually pretty good when viewing video and photos, but text looks like like something from a Commodore 64. I have zero problem spending the extra $$$ for retina.
That's a fact! My wife and I bought a 13" rMBP last week, and love it. I thought about taking advantage of the lower priced cMBP on sale at BB, but when we looked at text on its screen yesterday, it was awful compared to the retina display...really awful. That's the exact same reason I returned an ipad mini for an ipad 4. Both the mini and cMBP are actually pretty good when viewing video and photos, but text looks like like something from a Commodore 64. I have zero problem spending the extra $$$ for retina.
Its true and to say otherwise is just wrong. I do have a iPad mini but I am in no way going to defend the screen because its horrible. I have it because of the price and size. I use it in bed and watching tv. I understand the argument but I can't take my eyes off of a retina screen, its just that good.
While I'm currently using a 15" MBP with retina, I kept my much loved and highly enjoyed 15" hi-res, anti-glare mid 2010 MBP. I too prefer that size & form factor. Yet the work I do requires all the power & resources available, I prefer OS X, therefore the only choice going forward was the MBPr.
It's important to remember that Apple has transformed from a computer company to a mass market high profile retailer. Bigger than life they've taken on a persona of a celebrity of sorts. As such they've got an image to keep as the brilliant company that knows best.
It's Apple that proudly proclaims their products as "Magic & Revolutionary". Therefore the "wow factor" is worth far more to them than satisfying some of their customers needs & desires. Having spent years cleverly creating an image of invincibility, the power Apple has to convince customers to buy whatever they sell is amazing.
Notice how "showy" the new Mac Pro is. It's proof positive that Apple craves attention and headlines. It's not about refreshing the Mac Pro, it's about managing and enhancing their public persona. In doing so they create a conversation piece they can sell for big money. They've got a vast number of people believing they're the only visionaries on the planet. In many cases that's true. Say it enough, get enough people buying into it and suddenly it's their truth.
In the meantime Apples laughing all the way to the bank. Good for them
I'd regard a rMBP at £500 a very poor value purchase, it wouldn't bring anything to my desk that my late 2006 macbook doesn't already do more than fast enough.
What do people find difficult about judging the value of an item according to what it will bring them? Surely for our purposes there is no universal benchmark of utility beyond ability to run some form of OSX, and even then the power pc lot would take issue.
What do people find difficult about judging the value of an item according to what it will bring them? Surely for our purposes there is no universal benchmark of utility beyond ability to run some form of OSX, and even then the power pc lot would take issue.
If you don't want or need something, it's overpriced at any price. Since the OP is content with a very old cMBP, not even a new one, his thoughts on any new Mac are pretty much irrelevant. A new cMBP is clearly better than his, and he doesn't even want one of those.
I would think that most people claiming the cMBP is still the bees knees are interesting in upgrading at a future date/time. I know I don't have to upgrade immediately, unlike with the retina. Heck, it might not be for another year or two before I take out the DVD and replace it with an SSD, who knows the price per Gig at that point.
That is a major selling point for me at least. But to each their own.
That is a major selling point for me at least. But to each their own.